Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXIIX: Rust out, Marner in, all part of the plan!

[Empoleon8771]

The real question is would people have been fine with that return at the deadline? Speculation was getting pretty crazy the day of.

Also, I think it is a close call on whether Rust and Rakell would have more value at the draft or after the initial FA frenzy and teams have to move to back up plans with their very affordable cap hits.

I think it would be crazy to turn down that kind of package. A quality young NHLer and a 1st for Rakell is very good value.

Idk what you would be expected by for Rakell if something like Quinn or Spence plus a 1st wouldn’t be enough.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I wouldn’t be pissed off. Freakin hate losing. For some reason it was easier when I was younger.

Because when you're 20, the future seems infinitely long away

There's plenty of time to get my career settled. There's plenty of time for the pens to get sorted.

Then when you're 40, and can't believe 20 more years just flew by, you realize there isn't much time to f*** around because you're gonna be 60 too fast

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Weird how Mikko Rantanen just returned Necas and Drury without a contract and then Stankoven and two 1sts.

Must have been the soft market last year.

holy f*** what a terrible argument. Jake didn't come with an 8 year contract last TDL.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If people are unhappy with a potential return of a first and a decent young RH defenseman for Rakell they should probably adjust expectations.

If Raks ends up injuring himself or having one of his usual dips in production/effectiveness as he often has over the course of his career that will look a lot better than the 2nd or 3rd and some C tier prospect is gonna be,

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I personally am considering it as part of the calculus since I always assumed that Bunting was acquired to be flipped at some point later when there was a little bit less term on his contract.
Should we not consider the flipping of Luke Schenn as part of how we decide if the Bunting-to-Nashville trade was a good idea?
I'm also not sure that subsequent transactions aren't viewed as being part of the original transaction, but you might be right about that part in general. I don't know.

I'm being a little prickly. I get it, I suppose.

But it's like... when you have to put arbitrary limits on something it's a little questionable to me. Why not account for the entire extended trade tree to assess every trade? Why cut it off at one jump? It just feels like a way for fans to make things look a little better.

 

[Ugene Magic]

If people are unhappy with a potential return of a first and a decent young RH defenseman for Rakell they should probably adjust expectations.

If Raks ends up injuring himself or having one of his usual dips in production/effectiveness as he often has over the course of his career that will look a lot better than the 2nd or 3rd and some C tier prospect is gonna be,

I love seeing people talk themselves out of justified good returns just because they want the guy gone.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I don’t know Spence really at all. I’d have to go watch. His numbers are very strong. But on its surface a 5’11 D isn’t really doing it for me.

Maybe I’m wrong. But watching the finals, this playoff… game ain’t getting slower… or smaller. Especially on the backend.

 

[Andy99]

I don’t know Spence really at all. I’d have to go watch. His numbers are very strong. But on its surface a 5’11 D isn’t really doing it for me.

Maybe I’m wrong. But watching the finals, this playoff… game ain’t getting slower… or smaller. Especially on the backend.

Yeah, no interest in Spence in the least…not what we need…

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don’t know Spence really at all. I’d have to go watch. His numbers are very strong. But on its surface a 5’11 D isn’t really doing it for me.

Maybe I’m wrong. But watching the finals, this playoff… game ain’t getting slower… or smaller. Especially on the backend.

I’d probably look to flip Spence for a winger to replace Rakell rather than keeping Spence. That said, I also think it depends on what you get back in the EK trade. I’m expecting that deal will be a RHD plus futures back, so I don’t really see a need for Spence.

He’s just a useful guy to flip for a similarly aged winger like Quinn. It’s basically turning Rakell into a young top-9 winger and a 1st.

It’s similar to how Boston targeted Martin Jones in the Lucic trade but then immediately flipped him to San Jose.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I love seeing people talk themselves out of justified good returns just because they want the guy gone.

I don't care who is here and who is gone at this point. I really, really don't.

But Rickard Rakell's value is probably about a mid round first in total value to the right GM.

I don't understand why this is considered bad. He's a 40-70 point complimentary wing with consistency and occasional health problems. I have no idea why people think this guy is a walking gold bar all of the sudden. He had a terrific year... awesome! Sell sell sell.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I'm being a little prickly. I get it, I suppose.

But it's like... when you have to put arbitrary limits on something it's a little questionable to me. Why not account for the entire extended trade tree to assess every trade? Why cut it off at one jump? It just feels like a way for fans to make things look a little better.

Usually I consider each portion of the trade tree as 'What do I consider the main piece of the trade?' for whether or not it should 'count'. So, for instance, if we traded Rakell and Winnipeg's 2027 4th for something, I wouldn't consider that as part of the Guentzel trade tree, but if we traded Winnipeg's 2027 4th for something on its own, I would.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Usually I consider each portion of the trade tree as 'What do I consider the main piece of the trade?' for whether or not it should 'count'. So, for instance, if we traded Rakell and Winnipeg's 2027 4th for something, I wouldn't consider that as part of the Guentzel trade tree, but if we traded Winnipeg's 2027 4th for something on its own, I would.

Fair enough I guess but it just seems like everyone has their own little rules and to me that's messy.

I just look at trades as the trade and anything past that as separate transactions that are using the team's pool of total assets. Seems cleaner that way.

 

[TojoP]

f***ing christ mate...

I just finally let hope back in my heart with Sullivan being fired and then you throw that top 9 at me? No mate...no.

How about Rust or Rakell not Rust and Rakell. It will be a while mate, but it will happen, you will De-Sully your hockey thoughts and will finally start to get back to normal ideas again, just hang in there, maybe go to a pub, order a nice pint of Guinness and let it pass.


But if I had to throw out line-up ideas if Rust isn't dealt...

McGroarty, Crosby, Rust
Koivunen, Malkin, Rakell (I would rather see Ville on the RW where he's best but w/e)
UFA, Novak, Tomasino - I know we want to see youth, but Rutger, Koivunen, likely Pickering, etc are all going to be getting a good shot, but this team desperately needs a physical element again and I would start with this line with adding one. I would go after Tanner Jeannot, he's physical and I think he could maybe chip in more offensively then he's shown the last few teams, but he's a type of player the Pens have lacked for years because Sullivan as allergic to those types but in his mind felt Acciari was one of those types lol.

I am really curious what Dan Muse can do with the likes of Poulin, Puustinen, etc. Because if he can get them back on track, great, if not, just move on already since Sullivan's damage likely is settled in with them.

I don't really care for Acciari, Dewar (don't qualify), Heinen, and Hayes and I am hoping all of them are gone or at least 2-3 of them (Acciari and Heinen for sure). That leaves the 4th line some mix of Lizotte and one of the 4 wankers mentioned above. Honestly I would be happier seeing 4 of the 5 gone, keep Lizotte and play Poulin with him and see if Hallander makes the team. I think Hallander has a lot more to his game and I have been very high on him so I think he could be higher up in the line-up if he comes back to a coach that isn't a tit and is used properly or used at all.

If Dubas can move Rust the f*** out, like he should have last summer, great, that would give someone a shot on Sid's RW, but I would rather Rakell stayed with Geno. But if Dubas does dump Rust this summer, I would be curious to see something like:

McGroarty, Crosby, Rakell
Hallander, Malkin, Koivunen
Jeannot, Novak, Tomasino
Poulin, Lizotte, A.Hayes/?

Hallander was fantastic in Timra as a LW, that should be his best usage over trying to make him a C or anything else.

Lizotte is the only one I'd really like back out of the bottom of the lineup vets. He can be the stabilizing vet between two younger guys. I think they could build his value more with linemates who can play a little, don't think we'd get a decent pick for him now. Dewar I can go either way. Any of Heinen, Hayes, and Accairi I'd love to see gone.

I've wanted Poulin to get more of a chance to salvage his career on the fourth line. He was pretty productive for a third liner in WBS and can fill the pk and occasional fight roles with a little more skill. Intrigued to see what Hallander can bring now.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I also think you’d be making a mistake assuming any of the NHL pieces brought back in a Rakell, Rust or Karlsson trade will be long-term players here. Any NHL player you’re getting back there is either taking back a contract to make the deal work or a young player who will ideally improve and be flipped down the line. Someone like Spence or Quinn would fill significant short term roles and then be flipped once they’re in their late 20s, unless they become way better than I’m anticipating.

These guys are more depth guys now that project to develop into Rakell or Rust type of complementary guys. Those guys usually don’t stick around long enough for them to still be here when the Penguins turn a corner. They’re basically the equivalent of the Strakas, Kovalevs and Hrdinas on the X-Gen Penguins.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Dubi went quantity over quality with Jake, which makes a lot of sense due to the prospect pool he inherited. A year into the deal and it looks like he's hit on two of the pieces, missed on two of the pieces, and still has a few more pieces to see how they pan out. On the flip side, Jake played a few months in Carolina, got swept in the 3rd round and left as a FA.

I'd say that it's currently a decent win with the potential to be a big win depending on how the kids develop and Novak pans out.

 

[TojoP]

The real question is would people have been fine with that return at the deadline? Speculation was getting pretty crazy the day of.

Also, I think it is a close call on whether Rust and Rakell would have more value at the draft or after the initial FA frenzy and teams have to move to back up plans with their very affordable cap hits.

I didn't need to see those three assets returns for Rackell that were floating around myself. Get a first and a good prospect or young player and I'd have pulled the trigger. They should have sold high and hopefully still can before the season, no need to ask for the moon.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Fair enough I guess but it just seems like everyone has their own little rules and to me that's messy.

I just look at trades as the trade and anything past that as separate transactions that are using the team's pool of total assets. Seems cleaner that way.

I can see the appeal of having an objective standard that you apply to every trade, so I don't think this is wrong or anything. However, I think it doesn't take into account that different trades are made for different reasons.

 

[TojoP]

I don't care who is here and who is gone at this point. I really, really don't.

But Rickard Rakell's value is probably about a mid round first in total value to the right GM.

I don't understand why this is considered bad. He's a 40-70 point complimentary wing with consistency and occasional health problems. I have no idea why people think this guy is a walking gold bar all of the sudden. He had a terrific year... awesome! Sell sell sell.

Just supply and demand. If sellers are as limited as they were at the TDL and reportedly are now, you should get a little added value. Not the multiple firsts that were floating around type returns, but that first you mentioned plus something useful.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm not super interested in Spence either but you don't have to hang on to him. Flip him for a similar caliber young player if you don't think he's part of the plan moving forward. If you can't find that immediately, hopefully he can pump up his value on a dogshit team and then be dealt down the line.

Ideally, I'm trying to get the highest 1st rounder possible and a Koivunen caliber prospect for both Rust and Rakell. And I'm trading them the moment a deal that fits that description.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I would say that the appeal of getting a top 15 pick in this draft for one of Rust or Rakell changes depending on whether or not we also get the Rangers' pick this year. I feel that while having three picks in the top 15 in this draft isn't bad, per se, I'd rather have two in this draft and two (potentially) next draft.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Just supply and demand. If sellers are as limited as they were at the TDL and reportedly are now, you should get a little added value. Not the multiple firsts that were floating around type returns, but that first you mentioned plus something useful.

For sure.

I even get the IDEA of holding out for more in what looks like a favorable market. Which... when you have tons of cap space and nearly every team thinking they are one piece away... that is a favorable market.

But man... it's risky. The player in question is very inconsistent, for example.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm not super interested in Spence either but you don't have to hang on to him. Flip him for a similar caliber young player if you don't think he's part of the plan moving forward. If you can't find that immediately, hopefully he can pump up his value on a dogshit team and then be dealt down the line.

Ideally, I'm trying to get the highest 1st rounder possible and a Koivunen caliber prospect for both Rust and Rakell. And I'm trading them the moment a deal that fits that description.

Spence is a vanilla milkshake at best.

But like you guys have been preaching... assets. That's maybe another 2nd or 3rd and/or another piece to toss into a separate trade for a better fit.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Spence is a vanilla milkshake at best.

But like you guys have been preaching... assets. That's maybe another 2nd or 3rd and/or another piece to toss into a separate trade for a better fit.

Yeah, I personally don't really give a shit about Spence specifically. Maybe he's a Goligoski and you can pump up his value and trade him, or maybe some team wants him as an add-in part of a package or something.

Definitely don't value him as part of the plan here moving forward. Like I said, I'd much rather just get the best 1st possible and a decent prospect.

 

[Malkinstheman]

It's not much but on today's 32 thoughts, Friedman confirmed what Lebrun had said a couple days ago. He said every team in the league but the Pens is trying to get better so it's making trades a bit difficult

 

[Deport Ogie]

Well folks, the boardwide dream of RFAing Matt Rempe is dead. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.