Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXIIX: Rust out, Marner in, all part of the plan!

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, and I think Rossi was trying to paint a realistic/pragmatic projection of the off-season. Obviously Dubas will attempt to make some moves, and he may end up making more than expected. But projecting what exactly will get to the finish line is tough, considering conventional wisdom suggests this will be a wild period with lots of moving parts league wide.

As far as the Pens being bad next year, I think Dubas is of the mindset that it's win-win. If the team sucks, they get a better draft pick(s). If the team performs better than expected, it's because their young players are exceeding expectations, which bodes well for the future.

We all know the Penguins are going to somehow make the playoffs next year just to piss us all off given our expectation is we are finally chosing a direction.

 

[chethejet]

Dubas knows the time to move on is now. Yes he was at a disadvantage as Jake wasn't a sign and trade deal. But still, Koivunen, Brunicke, the picks from other trades and who knows. But ask Carolina how well they did and they just didn't grasp a sign and trade was going to make the deal much higher in costs and maybe tried to play both ends of the wick. Give up less and still sign Jake. I like the return so to me Tampa has a forward getting paid as he declines in value. Better them than the Pens.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I mean fair. I'm just trying to give context to why it was a mid trade.

I'm happy with the Brunicke pick and the Novak trade. I gave Dubas credit for both.

I do not think Brunicke is the level of prospect that some Penguins fans do.

I think it's more than fair to criticize the Guentzel trade as being mid. I disagree, but I understand the point of view. I personally believe that there are times you go for quantity and times you go for quality in trades, and I don't mind going for quantity with Guentzel because I do believe the quantity can still be pretty good. But I'm higher on Koivunen than you.

I do think Dubas now needs to target quality. He needs to get maximum value for Karlsson, Rust, Rakell, etc., whatever that ends up looking like. He can't accept lesser picks or prospects.

FYI, I actually agree with you on Brunicke. I think he and Pickering both end up as OK middle pair defensemen. Which is fine. But not earth-shattering. I think people got ahead of themselves with how he looked in camp last year.

 

[eXile3]

We all know the Penguins are going to somehow make the playoffs next year just to piss us all off given our expectation is we are finally chosing a direction.

I wouldn’t be pissed off. Freakin hate losing. For some reason it was easier when I was younger.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dubas knows the time to move on is now. Yes he was at a disadvantage as Jake wasn't a sign and trade deal. But still, Koivunen, Brunicke, the picks from other trades and who knows. But ask Carolina how well they did and they just didn't grasp a sign and trade was going to make the deal much higher in costs and maybe tried to play both ends of the wick. Give up less and still sign Jake. I like the return so to me Tampa has a forward getting paid as he declines in value. Better them than the Pens.

I don't really see any reason Guentzel declines in value on that contract.

As the cap goes up, he'll be cheaper and his skill set is basically built on his IQ.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

We all know the Penguins are going to somehow make the playoffs next year just to piss us all off given our expectation is we are finally choosing a direction.

Choosing a direction is just that, nothing more. Shit happens in life. I have chosen not to be married. If Halle Berry shows up in Montreal tomorrow and bumps into me, all bets are off!

I am probably in the 5% or less that believe we could be a playoff team. I am also in the minority who believes the ex-coach has held this team back for years now. I also think the Eastern Conference is definitely weak and perhaps getting weaker.

If we trade only one of the key veterans (i.e. Rust), fix the goaltending situation (bad goalie contract for bad goalie contract trade?), add a left defensive defenseman and let the kids play (by trading superfluous veterans like Acciari, Lizotte, Graves, Hayes et al), you just never know. The Dan Muse factor could be huge, or it might be small. We definitely need to add a few young NHLers in a Rust deal and maybe some other way. Signing someone like Shabanov would be huge, imo.

The bottom line, if the team buys into Muse, we could be right there.

 

[Pancakes]

I don't really see any reason Guentzel declines in value on that contract.

As the cap goes up, he'll be cheaper and his skill set is basically built on his IQ.

Yeah I think he'll age fine. Maybe injuries would be a concern with the beating he sometimes takes in the corners/in front of the net, but he's also smart enough to avoid a lot of that contact.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah I think he'll age fine. Maybe injuries would be a concern with the beating he sometimes takes in the corners/in front of the net, but he's also smart enough to avoid a lot of that contact.

I didn't want us signing that contract though. Wanted him traded.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I am probably in the 5% or less that believe we could be a playoff team. I am also in the minority who believes the ex-coach has held this team back for years now. I also think the Eastern Conference is definitely weak and perhaps getting weaker.

Sneaking into the playoffs next year doesn't help us if we get bounced in R1, or even R2.
That will only make building the next core harder, and hurt the quality of the farm. It will put the wrong ideas into the heads of management and ownership, about how to proceed. It will lessen the focus on building through the draft, and we'll try to compensate through free agency and trade.

It's not about if they can make it. It's that it's unwise to try to at this time.
They aren't ready to win. They must build a foundation first.
It is time to stop prioritizing Crosby over the future of the organization.

 

[Gurglesons]

Would be hilarious if we got Mancini and 15th overall for Rakell.

 

[eXile3]

Choosing a direction is just that, nothing more. Shit happens in life. I have chosen not to be married. If Halle Berry shows up in Montreal tomorrow and bumps into me, all bets are off!

I am probably in the 5% or less that believe we could be a playoff team. I am also in the minority who believes the ex-coach has held this team back for years now. I also think the Eastern Conference is definitely weak and perhaps getting weaker.

If we trade only one of the key veterans (i.e. Rust), fix the goaltending situation (bad goalie contract for bad goalie contract trade?), add a left defensive defenseman and let the kids play (by trading superfluous veterans like Acciari, Lizotte, Graves, Hayes et al), you just never know. The Dan Muse factor could be huge, or it might be small. We definitely need to add a few young NHLers in a Rust deal and maybe some other way. Signing someone like Shabanov would be huge, imo.

The bottom line, if the team buys into Muse, we could be right there.

I think it’s too late now. Dubas gutted this roster.

I’ll always contend that Dubas wanted to rebuild day one to make it his own team and rushed a rebuild. We’re two points out with Jake and an a coach well past his expiration date. A new coach then and I honestly think we uphold the promise to compete while Sid is on the roster.

Right now our 2nd line wingers are Hayes and Tomasino. But who knows? Maybe some of the young guys take big steps.

 

[eXile3]

Would be hilarious if we got Mancini and 15th overall for Rakell.

They need money so they’re thinking about investing in a hedge fund. LOL.

 

[Gurglesons]

Choosing a direction is just that, nothing more. Shit happens in life. I have chosen not to be married. If Halle Berry shows up in Montreal tomorrow and bumps into me, all bets are off!

I am probably in the 5% or less that believe we could be a playoff team. I am also in the minority who believes the ex-coach has held this team back for years now. I also think the Eastern Conference is definitely weak and perhaps getting weaker.

If we trade only one of the key veterans (i.e. Rust), fix the goaltending situation (bad goalie contract for bad goalie contract trade?), add a left defensive defenseman and let the kids play (by trading superfluous veterans like Acciari, Lizotte, Graves, Hayes et al), you just never know. The Dan Muse factor could be huge, or it might be small. We definitely need to add a few young NHLers in a Rust deal and maybe some other way. Signing someone like Shabanov would be huge, imo.

The bottom line, if the team buys into Muse, we could be right there.

I don't think you are in the minority on this board lol.

I think it’s too late now. Dubas gutted this roster.

I’ll always contend that Dubas wanted to rebuild day one to make it his own team and rushed a rebuild. We’re two points out with Jake and an a coach well past his expiration date. A new coach then and I honestly think we uphold the promise to compete while Sid is on the roster.

Right now our 2nd line wingers are Hayes and Tomasino. But who knows? Maybe some of the young guys take big steps.

If you're looking at our line up right now I'd think you'd probably see..

Koivunen - Crosby - Rust
McGroarty - Malkin - Rakell
Heinen - Novak - Tomasino
Dewar - Hayers - Acciari

I don't think that's where we end up on day one, but I don't really think that roster is that far from the Montreal / Ottawa rosters that made it.

That's the other issue with tanking lol. The East is legitimately f***ing terrible.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

The Fan is having Rob(Gerbil Boy)Rossi on to discuss Geno future, this is a guy who had no clue who was going to be named Head Coach, So I am sure he has insight in what Geno's future is

Did they ask him how to vote on NHL awards?

 

[pistolpete11]

I'm saying if a team offers you a 1st for them send them out even if it involves a cap dump coming back.

That's what Dubas should be doing. You can easily find a top six winger to pump value into during UFA or via trade.

Yeah...and if they don't get a first, what do you do? Welcome to the discussion that was happening.

I'm DEFINITELY not calling anyone dumb or anything like that... far from it. I have no room to talk lol. But it's just weird to me how one day trading everything that moves for a second round pick is smart and savvy and needed to start happening yesterday but the next day we need to hold out to get every ounce out of two players every team has.

Like... just say ya'll really like Rickard Rakell and Bryan Rust for some reason. It's all good. I don't get it but it's all good.

You're doing the exact opposite. "It's just a 2nd round pick, guys" has now become we have to jump at an offer if we get a 2nd.

That's why I'm confused you're the one arguing with me on this. Even if worst case scenario happens and they have a career ending injury in training camp, it sucks, but....it's only a 2nd round pick guys. More realistically, if they can't get a 1st now, they probably get one at the deadline, they get the same return at the deadline, or maybe if it's a real buyer's deadline, it slips to a 3rd.

Everyone is in agreement of what the ideal price is for Rust/Rakell, yet there is still an argument somehow. Summer boredom at its finest… one more week guys, we can do it.

The argument was what to do if you don't get that ideal price.

 

[Gurglesons]

I've seen multiple posters saying they wouldn't take just a 1st for Rakell / Rust.

That was what I was addressing. Sorry if you got caught in the..

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Sneaking into the playoffs next year doesn't help us if we get bounced in R1, or even R2.
That will only make building the next core harder, and hurt the quality of the farm. It will put the wrong ideas into the heads of management and ownership, about how to proceed. It will lessen the focus on building through the draft, and we'll try to compensate through free agency and trade.

It's not about if they can make it. It's that it's unwise to try to at this time.
They aren't ready to win. They must build a foundation first.
It is time to stop prioritizing Crosby over the future of the organization.

I never said anything that you are suggesting. But we have to also face some facts here: if we somehow reach the SECOND round of the Stanley Cup playoffs, which is what you said (I never said anything of the sort), it clearly means some new foundation pieces helped make that happen. Look at the current roster. If it clicks, it will be because some of our rookies hit this season. I mean, if we have, I don't know, 4 rookies who finish in the top 20 of Calder voting, how is that a bad thing.

For all we know, Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Karlsson all play great next season and it clicks with the new coach. And again, this is not a tear down to the studs. We should appreciate the fact that the veterans are committed to this organization. It is such a rarity in this day and age. Hell, I would really appreciate it even if this was not the team I root for. So, we are lucky that they are still Penguins, and also that the man running the team wants to turn this around as quickly as possible.

For the people who want the Penguins to lose, well, then become a member of the Canadian media and start complaining that Sidney Crosby DESERVES to play on a contender. Or some other bullshit that keeps getting spewed nonsensically.

Meanwhile, I am hopeful that the McGroarty's, Koivunen's, Pickering's, Blomqvist's, Tomasino's, Hallander's, Brunicke's and others are now free to play their game and grow into roles with this team. And hey, who knows. Maybe we get lucky and one of them becomes better than expected. And maybe we get luckier with this year's draft than we have been, so far.

This team has had a loser mentality for long enough. If nothing else, let's see that change.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Would be hilarious if we got Mancini and 15th overall for Rakell.

Pittsburgh needs Mancini off name alone.

 

[Darren McCord]

Is Blake even a better prospect than Koivunen at this point? Feels silly to act like the Penguins somehow got a bad return because they got an undersized guy with 2nd line upside over another undersized guy with 2nd line upside.

Ponomarev and Lucius looks like whiffs in that trade but Koivunen and Brunicke look great and they got annother 2nd for Bunting. The Guentzel trade is a big win if you can get 2 quality young NHLers out of it.

Blake just had a 20g 20a season. yes he is a better prospect right now. Could Koivunen be better sure. But no way is he better or are par right now.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I never said anything that you are suggesting. But we have to also face some facts here: if we somehow reach the SECOND round of the Stanley Cup playoffs, which is what you said (I never said anything of the sort), it clearly means some new foundation pieces helped make that happen. Look at the current roster. If it clicks, it will be because some of our rookies hit this season. I mean, if we have, I don't know, 4 rookies who finish in the top 20 of Calder voting, how is that a bad thing.

For all we know, Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Karlsson all play great next season and it clicks with the new coach. And again, this is not a tear down to the studs. We should appreciate the fact that the veterans are committed to this organization. It is such a rarity in this day and age. Hell, I would really appreciate it even if this was not the team I root for. So, we are lucky that they are still Penguins, and also that the man running the team wants to turn this around as quickly as possible.

For the people who want the Penguins to lose, well, then become a member of the Canadian media and start complaining that Sidney Crosby DESERVES to play on a contender. Or some other bullshit that keeps getting spewed nonsensically.

Meanwhile, I am hopeful that the McGroarty's, Koivunen's, Pickering's, Blomqvist's, Tomasino's, Hallander's, Brunicke's and others are now free to play their game and grow into roles with this team. And hey, who knows. Maybe we get lucky and one of them becomes better than expected. And maybe we get luckier with this year's draft than we have been, so far.

This team has had a loser mentality for long enough. If nothing else, let's see that change.

If you want their losing mentality to change then they have to build a foundation for a winning mentality. For that they need the draft. And in turn, they need to lose enough to get the picks they need. That's how the league is structured. There's cycles you have to go through. There's no escaping it.
The teams who try to force playoffs prematurely achieve nothing, and slow down their return to contention.

The Pens were able to change their mindset, after getting out of multiple dark eras, because of the new cores at the time. And it's what they used to propel them to all 5 Cups.

You have to have the young pieces in place to sell hope for the future.
It's very hard to produce a team with swagger if they aren't there.
What they have right now is not good for the hope element. All our best players are old, and most will be gone very soon.

I respect the mindset of the core. It's admirable. Doesn't mean that I think the Pens should sacrifice the future just for their feelings though.
The team should always come first. And it couldn't be clearer that the Pens aren't winning Cups the next 2 years, before Sid's deal expires, and Malkin and Karlsson are gone.

 

[JackFr]

If we make the playoffs by accident after a summer of selling, ah well I'll be happy to cheer for it

 

[plaidchuck]

Pittsburgh needs Mancini off name alone.

The Bread Man

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

HFPens if Gurglesons was gone...

View attachment 1051276

HFPens if Sullivan was gone

wait…

 

[Pancakes]

I didn't want us signing that contract though. Wanted him traded.

Same.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

If you want their losing mentality to change then they have to build a foundation for a winning mentality. For that they need the draft. And in turn, they need to lose enough to get the picks they need. That's how the league is structured. There's cycles you have to go through. There's no escaping it.
The teams who try to force playoffs prematurely achieve nothing, and slow down their return to contention.

The Pens were able to change their mindset, after getting out of multiple dark eras, because of the new cores at the time. And it's what they used to propel them to all 5 Cups.

You have to have the young pieces in place to sell hope for the future.
It's very hard to produce a team with swagger if they aren't there.
What they have right now is not good for the hope element. All our best players are old, and most will be gone very soon.

I respect the mindset of the core. It's admirable. Doesn't mean that I think the Pens should sacrifice the future just for their feelings though.
The team should always come first. And it couldn't be clearer that the Pens aren't winning Cups the next 2 years, before Sid's deal expires, and Malkin and Karlsson are gone.

What is also clear is that the Buffalo Sabres are even further away from a Cup than we are...and they began the rebuild when we were just starting our playoff journey.

Losing begets losing. And for the record, is anybody here arguing that we don't need the draft?

Keep every first-round pick from now until the end of this franchise. That is a recipe for success. If you don't go all in, you never have to strip it down. Draft and develop. Draft and develop.

None of that has anything to do with losing.