Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXIIX: Rust out, Marner in, all part of the plan!

[Gurglesons]

Koivunen was widely regarded as the highest value prospect in that deal. Brunicke has moved to 2nd. Guentzel was a rental winger in a much softer market than this year's TDL. Yes it could up being a disastrous deal still. It could also end up very beneficial. Too early to tell. That's the nature of trading for futures as a seller.

Softer market where multiple players were moved for more than Guentzel.

 

[Gurglesons]

Is Blake even a better prospect than Koivunen at this point? Feels silly to act like the Penguins somehow got a bad return because they got an undersized guy with 2nd line upside over another undersized guy with 2nd line upside.

Absolutely.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Absolutely.

I don’t particularly care for your opinion because Koivunen could put up an 80 point season but you’d still say he sucks.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don’t particularly care for your opinion because Koivunen could put up an 80 point season but you’d still say he sucks.

Blake just put up a 17 goal season at 21 in the NHL.

How is it even an argument?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Blake just put up a 17 goal season at 21 in the NHL.

How is it even an argument?

Had Koivunen played in the NHL for a full season, he likely would have produced about the same.

Blake had 34 points in 80 games in the NHL. Koivunen had 7 points in 8 games in the NHL.

 

[Gurglesons]

Had Koivunen played in the NHL for a full season, he likely would have produced about the same.

Blake had 34 points in 80 games in the NHL. Koivunen had 7 points in 8 games in the NHL.

Yeah, that's how it works...

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Rob Rossi was on 93.7 The Fan this afternoon and said that he doesn't think Malkin will play beyond this season. He said that the Penguins are likely planning to move on, but that if Malkin were to play well and stay relatively healthy, it's entirely possible that Malkin and the Penguins could revisit things and see if he wants to play next year.

Rossi reiterated that Malkin has no interest in playing for another team and that he doesn't want to be the player that goes out as a shell of himself.

Rossi added that he thinks Malkin and Ovechkin may both retire at the end of the season and go out together.

He also said that he expects the Penguins to be one of the worst teams in the league this year and that Dubas likely would welcome that. He thinks the Penguins need to be more open about the rebuilding process with fans instead of suggesting that the turnaround would happen quickly.

Rossi echoed some of the conventional wisdom on Karlsson and Rust - Karlsson's contract and control could limit the opportunity to move him, and the market may be better for Rust later on rather than this summer, such as an overpay at the deadline.

He also touched on the Mario/FSG sale rumors by saying he doesn't think there's much there. Rossi claimed that Mario has a standing offer from FSG to be more involved anytime he wants, and that FSG is looking for a "significant number" to invest from the outside, not for current partners to invest more.

https://www.audacy.com/podcast/the-pm-team-wponi-mueller-d7019/episodes/rob-rossi-on-evgeni-malkins-future-penguins-offseason-plans-and-more-5811b

 

[Gurglesons]

Rob Rossi was on 93.7 The Fan this afternoon and said that he doesn't think Malkin will play beyond this season. He said that the Penguins are likely planning to move on, but that if Malkin were to play well and stay relatively healthy, it's entirely possible that Malkin and the Penguins could revisit things and see if he wants to play next year.

Rossi reiterated that Malkin has no interest in playing for another team and that he doesn't want to be the player that goes out as a shell of himself.

Rossi added that he thinks Malkin and Ovechkin may both retire at the end of the season and go out together.

He also said that he expects the Penguins to be one of the worst teams in the league this year and that Dubas likely would welcome that. He thinks the Penguins need to be more open about the rebuilding process with fans instead of suggesting that the turnaround would happen quickly.

Rossi echoed some of the conventional wisdom on Karlsson and Rust - Karlsson's contract and control could limit the opportunity to move him, and the market may be better for Rust later on rather than this summer, such as an overpay at the deadline.

He also touched on the Mario/FSG sale rumors by saying he doesn't think there's much there. Rossi claimed that Mario has a standing offer from FSG to be more involved anytime he wants, and that FSG is looking for a "significant number" to invest from the outside, not for current partners to invest more.

https://www.audacy.com/podcast/the-pm-team-wponi-mueller-d7019/episodes/rob-rossi-on-evgeni-malkins-future-penguins-offseason-plans-and-more-5811b

Any tidbits regarding Crosby and steak dinners / "how we do it in Pittsburgh"?

 

[Jared Grayden]

Softer market where multiple players were moved for more than Guentzel.

Yeah centers and dmen. Reality is wingers are the least valued skaters. A lesson witnessed every draft too.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah centers and dmen. Reality is wingers are the least valued skaters. A lesson witnessed every draft too.

Weird how Mikko Rantanen just returned Necas and Drury without a contract and then Stankoven and two 1sts.

Must have been the soft market last year.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The fact is that trade IS shaping up to be mediocre. Maybe worse. The centerpiece prospect at the time just said "see ya" so it's as relevant today as it was the day it was made. The trade is already questionable enough that people are including the Bunting deal the season after as a direct part of that trade that should be considered as part of the total calculus. This is not often the grace given to all transactions or even most for that matter.

I get that ya'll hate Gurgs but just because you don't like someone it doesn't make them wrong.

It's not that. It's just that you're both wrong and have a really limited view of the ramifications of the trade. You guys pretend Brunicke doesn't exist and have no idea what his career will be like. You don't weigh the performance vs cap hit we might get from him on his ELC.

Never seen Novak play for the Pens outside of 26 minutes. He might play 2C level at 3.5M. Even if it's 3C level, that's a good cap hit for that.
Not weighing the 2nd we got for Schenn.
Not weighing in the fact that Koivunen might fill a top-six role at under a million next season.

You also don't factor in that had Guentzel stayed, he would probably be making 10M+ until he's 37. Pittsburgh doesn't have Tampa taxes. Why would he take less to stay on a sinking ship?
It'd all be for a winger who doesn't play defense at all.
This would also cover a bunch of years where we aren't ready to win and he'd serve no purpose whatsoever. He would just sit here and collect points, and we'd be wasting tons of cap.

This isn't "most trades". It had a lot of components.
Of course you have to look at the trade tree to make it a fair discussion. The whole purpose of the trade was to improve our farm and assets. So yeah, we need to follow-up and see what happened.

You guys are too caught up in your hatred of Dubas to see things clearly.
The fact that you're saying Ponomarev leaving supposedly sinks the deal, speaks volumes about where you're at on this topic. Just grasping for anything to serve your agenda. Pathetic mindset.

 

[Jared Grayden]

Weird how Mikko Rantanen just returned Necas and Drury without a contract and then Stankoven and two 1sts.

Must have been the soft market last year.

It's not weird it's quite normal. Markets change year to year based on sellers and buyers. Comparing 2024 deadline to 2025 is largely pointless. Obviously 2025 was more favorable for sellers.

 

[T1K]

It's not weird it's quite normal. Markets change year to year based on sellers and buyers. Comparing 2024 deadline to 2025 is largely pointless. Obviously 2025 was more favorable for sellers.

Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good narrative

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't hate Dubas lol... I'm just undecided. That's allowed.

You can call people as stupid and pathetic as you want... nice look by the way... that doesn't make you right or give you a crystal ball, Nostradamus.

I am discussing the information in front of me versus other similar trades made over the years and I find it lacking as of now. That is it and that is all. If the players and futures acquired all pan out then terrific it worked out great and my suspicions were misgiven. Unlike some I do not pretend to know everything in advance of it actually happening and am perfectly fine admitting when my OPINIONS are incorrect.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's not weird it's quite normal. Markets change year to year based on sellers and buyers. Comparing 2024 deadline to 2025 is largely pointless. Obviously 2025 was more favorable for sellers.

None of us know the reality of what Dubas was offered for Guentzel.

Every insider stated it was a 1st and a prospect. It's obvious that Dubas diluted the package to get a player he was familiar with and a few prospects versus taking the 1st.

We can just say some people are willing to let that play out, but we don't need to create some weird narrative that wingers don't return value.

In my opinion we have the below.

Rantanen returned more value in 2025.
Meier and Jeannot returned more value in 2023.
Giroux returned more value in 2022.

That is why I criticize Dubas for the return he got for Jake.

 

[JackFr]

Rob Rossi was on 93.7 The Fan this afternoon and said that he doesn't think Malkin will play beyond this season. He said that the Penguins are likely planning to move on, but that if Malkin were to play well and stay relatively healthy, it's entirely possible that Malkin and the Penguins could revisit things and see if he wants to play next year.

Rossi reiterated that Malkin has no interest in playing for another team and that he doesn't want to be the player that goes out as a shell of himself.

Rossi added that he thinks Malkin and Ovechkin may both retire at the end of the season and go out together.

He also said that he expects the Penguins to be one of the worst teams in the league this year and that Dubas likely would welcome that. He thinks the Penguins need to be more open about the rebuilding process with fans instead of suggesting that the turnaround would happen quickly.

Rossi echoed some of the conventional wisdom on Karlsson and Rust - Karlsson's contract and control could limit the opportunity to move him, and the market may be better for Rust later on rather than this summer, such as an overpay at the deadline.

He also touched on the Mario/FSG sale rumors by saying he doesn't think there's much there. Rossi claimed that Mario has a standing offer from FSG to be more involved anytime he wants, and that FSG is looking for a "significant number" to invest from the outside, not for current partners to invest more.

https://www.audacy.com/podcast/the-pm-team-wponi-mueller-d7019/episodes/rob-rossi-on-evgeni-malkins-future-penguins-offseason-plans-and-more-5811b

All of this sounds realistic.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's not that. It's just that you're both wrong and have a really limited view of the ramifications of the trade. You guys pretend Brunicke doesn't exist and have no idea what his career will be like. You don't weigh the performance vs cap hit we might get from him on his ELC.

Never seen Novak play for the Pens outside of 26 minutes. He might play 2C level at 3.5M. Even if it's 3C level, that's a good cap hit for that.
Not weighing the 2nd we got for Schenn.
Not weighing in the fact that Koivunen might fill a top-six role at under a million next season.

You also don't factor in that had Guentzel stayed, he would probably be making 10M+ until he's 37. Pittsburgh doesn't have Tampa taxes. Why would he take less to stay on a sinking ship?
It'd all be for a winger who doesn't play defense at all.
This would also cover a bunch of years where we aren't ready to win and he'd serve no purpose whatsoever. He would just sit here and collect points, and we'd be wasting tons of cap.

This isn't "most trades". It had a lot of components.
Of course you have to look at the trade tree to make it a fair discussion. The whole purpose of the trade was to improve our farm and assets. So yeah, we need to follow-up and see what happened.

You guys are too caught up in your hatred of Dubas to see things clearly.
The fact that you're saying Ponomarev leaving supposedly sinks the deal, speaks volumes about where you're at on this topic. Just grasping for anything to serve your agenda. Pathetic mindset.

I'm not one to give value to draft picks and additional moves made by a trade.

I judge the trade by what was included in the trade. We got a 2nd round pick, the 5th and 6th best prospects and a cap dump for a player that ended up signing a 9mil 7 year deal and put up 40 goals and 80 pts this year.

That in my opinion is never enough.

If Koivunen turns into a 70 pt winger or Brunicke turns into a top pairing defenseman I'm happy to enjoy that.

 

[Jared Grayden]

None of us know the reality of what Dubas was offered for Guentzel.

Every insider stated it was a 1st and a prospect. It's obvious that Dubas diluted the package to get a player he was familiar with and a few prospects versus taking the 1st.

We can just say some people are willing to let that play out, but we don't need to create some weird narrative that wingers don't return value.

In my opinion we have the below.

Rantanen returned more value in 2025.
Meier and Jeannot returned more value in 2023.
Giroux returned more value in 2022.

That is why I criticize Dubas for the return he got for Jake.

Im fine with criticism of Dubas for taking that package. However, reality is no rental winger got more in 2024 and comparing deals made in other deadlines is very misleading as market forces can change dramatically year to year. If Koivunen and Brunicke end up as solid 2nd liners, that's a fair value deal for Guentzel as a rental. Obviously there is still a possibility the deal ends with nothing useful in which case I'll be happy to criticize Dubas for failed talent evaluation.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I don't hate Dubas lol... I'm just undecided. That's allowed.

You can call people as stupid and pathetic as you want... nice look by the way... that doesn't make you right or give you a crystal ball, Nostradamus.

I am discussing the information in front of me versus other similar trades made over the years and I find it lacking as of now. That is it and that is all. If the players and futures acquired all pan out then terrific it worked out great and my suspicions were misgiven. Unlike some I do not pretend to know everything in advance of it actually happening and am perfectly fine admitting when my OPINIONS are incorrect.

You have always actively sought out anti-Dubas arguments, because you're upset about them re-tooling/rebuilding. You just did it right now, by pushing back against the idea of analyzing the trade tree, or by projecting Ponomarev as someone important in all this.
You're going out of your way to only weigh one side.

I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you're lazy, biased and don't look at the whole picture of things that are uncomfortable for you. Most on this board don't.

I don't know what's gonna happen. Not claiming I do. This trade is complex.
But at least I'm not dismissing possibilities of good things happening in the future just because it's pro-Dubas to think so.

 

[Gurglesons]

Im fine with criticism of Dubas for taking that package. However, reality is no rental winger got more in 2024 and comparing deals made in other deadlines is very misleading as market forces can change dramatically year to year. If Koivunen and Brunicke end up as solid 2nd liners, that's a fair value deal for Guentzel as a rental. Obviously there is still a possibility the deal ends with nothing useful in which case I'll be happy to criticize Dubas for failed talent evaluation.

I think you could argue Lindholm returned more than Guentzel.

Oh sorry. Saw you said winger.

 

[Gurglesons]

You have always actively sought out anti-Dubas arguments, because you're upset about them re-tooling/rebuilding. You just did it right now, by pushing back against the idea of analyzing the trade tree, or by projecting Ponomarev as someone important in all this.
You're going out of your way to only weigh one side.

I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you're lazy, biased and don't look at the whole picture of things that are uncomfortable for you. Most on this board don't.

I don't know what's gonna happen. Not claiming I do. This trade is complex.
But at least I'm not dismissing possibilities of good things happening in the future just because it's pro-Dubas to think so.

I think both @BlindWillyMcHurt and I are Penguins fans and hope the trade turns out well.

Don't you have a novel to write on how Draisaitl is better than Crosby somewhere instead of insulting posters?

Or is it that everyone on here doesn't know how to discuss or interpret hockey like you do and just makes personal attacks as you call us dumb and lazy and biased?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

All of this sounds realistic.

Yeah, and I think Rossi was trying to paint a realistic/pragmatic projection of the off-season. Obviously Dubas will attempt to make some moves, and he may end up making more than expected. But projecting what exactly will get to the finish line is tough, considering conventional wisdom suggests this will be a wild period with lots of moving parts league wide.

As far as the Pens being bad next year, I think Dubas is of the mindset that it's win-win. If the team sucks, they get a better draft pick(s). If the team performs better than expected, it's because their young players are exceeding expectations, which bodes well for the future.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I'm not one to give value to draft picks and additional moves made by a trade.

I judge the trade by what was included in the trade. We got a 2nd round pick, the 5th and 6th best prospects and a cap dump for a player that ended up signing a 9mil 7 year deal and put up 40 goals and 80 pts this year.

That in my opinion is never enough.

If Koivunen turns into a 70 pt winger or Brunicke turns into a top pairing defenseman I'm happy to enjoy that.

I'm fine with criticizing quantity vs quality in trades. That's definitely a valid point of view.

But if you won't give value to additional moves made by a trade, why does what Guentzel did the season after or the contract he signed matter? Isn't that giving value to additional moves made by the trade, just like moving a player on in another deal?

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm fine with criticizing quantity vs quality in trades. That's definitely a valid point of view.

But if you won't give value to additional moves made by a trade, why does what Guentzel did the season after or the contract he signed matter? Isn't that giving value to additional moves made by the trade, just like moving a player on in another deal?

I mean fair. I'm just trying to give context to why it was a mid trade.

I'm happy with the Brunicke pick and the Novak trade. I gave Dubas credit for both.

I do not think Brunicke is the level of prospect that some Penguins fans do.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

If Koivunen and Brunicke end up as solid 2nd liners

Brunicke is a RD. Those inherently have more value than wingers.
But yeah, if he becomes a top-4 D for years, I would probably take that alone over Jake at 10M until he's 37.
Because 3 of those years will be ELC's, at tiny cap hits. And Jake isn't worth 10M baseline, since he doesn't defend at all. Plus he's probably gonna decline in the back-half of the deal.

And this is before we weigh all the other components to this trade tree, like Koivunen, the 2nd and Novak.