Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXIIX: Rust out, Marner in, all part of the plan!

[pistolpete11]

Well no but it expedites their decrease in value. These guys aren't in their 20s anymore and are far from superstars who have a great chance of remaining top producers throughout most of their 30s. They are aging complimentary wings. EK can be sold a bit differently with some massaging and lots of salary retention but those two are what they are.

If they want to keep them then fine whatever... I just don't think it's very smart if the idea is to build out your futures. They aren't a lot but they are the best three trade chips on the team and at least from where I'm standing the time to cash out isn't just here but has BEEN here. I don't think their value goes anywhere but down from here.

Exactly. So they need to maximize their returns. If that means going into the season with them on the roster, so be it.

Just because their value might be at it's peak now doesn't mean teams will be willing to pay that price now. Wait until someone is, just like they did with Eller and Petts.

 

[Darren McCord]

I think a 2nd and Pieniniemi for Howard would be as high as I'd be willing to go, with noting that I don't really want to trade Pieniniemi. If they want a better prospect than that for Howard, I'd look elsewhere.

Pieniniemi was a PPG defenseman in the OHL this year and played some big minutes for Finland at the WJC this year. I don't think his upside is all that high, think pre-breakout Niskanen (#4/5 2-way PMD that can be a PPQB), but the prospect pool is so barren for LD that I'm really hesitant trading any other guys.

I wouldn’t trade Pieniniemi. His stock has gone up a lot and they still need prospects Just trade 2 2nds for Howard.

The longer it drags out the more his value drops. Howard also has some say. If he says he will only sign with certain teams

 

[chethejet]

Pens looking for ready made players at this point. Howard is a good prospect but lets see what the draft day brings before committing assets to another prospect.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I wouldn’t trade Pieniniemi. His stock has gone up a lot and they still need prospects Just trade 2 2nds for Howard.

The longer it drags out the more his value drops. Howard also has some say. If he says he will only sign with certain teams

Yeah I think that is totally reasonable, I really like Pieniniemi a lot and don't blame anyone for not wanting to trade him. I just think Pieniniemi and a 2nd is as high of a package as I can possibly rationalize for Howard.

I also think a part of it also depends on who else is available this off-season. I think one of Rust or Rakell has to be moved, ideally Rakell IMO, and they should have an opening in the L3 LW spot and a top-6 wing spot (either LW or RW depending on where Koivunen is playing). I don't think Howard quite fits what I'm looking for that L3 LW spot, but he absolutely fits in that top-6 winger spot for what I think they need.

I think my "ideal" top-9 going into next year would be something like:

McGroarty-Crosby-Howard
Koivunen-Malkin-Rust
Crouse-Novak-Tomasino

 

[Gurglesons]

Exactly. So they need to maximize their returns. If that means going into the season with them on the roster, so be it.

Just because their value might be at it's peak now doesn't mean teams will be willing to pay that price now. Wait until someone is, just like they did with Eller and Petts.

Nah.

This is dumb.

Look at San Jose. They took deals in Burns, Hertl, and Karlsson that were all viewed as "huge losses" on paper.

From those deals they got Dickinson, Askarov, and Granlund who they added Ceci to and got a 1st for.

That's what we should be doing if we are "trying to expediate the rebuild".

 

[PensFutures]

Do you think McDonagh would waive? That could be a huge way to bring down Howard's price by giving them the space to pursue someone like Ekblad, Miller, Gavrikov or Orlov.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Do you think McDonagh would waive? That could be a huge way to bring down Howard's price by giving them the space to pursue someone like Ekblad, Miller, Gavrikov or Orlov.

I don't think Tampa views McDonagh as a negative. They made it a point to get him back from Nashville because he was missed in the room so much

 

[PensFutures]

I don't think Tampa views McDonagh as a negative. They made it a point to get him back from Nashville because he was missed in the room so much

I just think they may need to make a move like that for cap space/youth, and im just trying to think of ways to get Howard as cheap as possible.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Nah.

This is dumb.

Look at San Jose. They took deals in Burns, Hertl, and Karlsson that were all viewed as "huge losses" on paper.

From those deals they got Dickinson, Askarov, and Granlund who they added Ceci to and got a 1st for.

That's what we should be doing if we are "trying to expediate the rebuild".

How have those deals "expedited the rebuild", though? Dickinson is a great piece, but the rest is pretty middling and they're still an awful team.

Selling guys just to say you sold them is absolutely not how you properly do a rebuild. If you're only getting offered shit returns for them, you don't trade them. That said, I think it is extremely unlikely they're only getting offered shit returns for them.

 

[pistolpete11]

Nah.

This is dumb.

Look at San Jose. They took deals in Burns, Hertl, and Karlsson that were all viewed as "huge losses" on paper.

From those deals they got Dickinson, Askarov, and Granlund who they added Ceci to and got a 1st for.

That's what we should be doing if we are "trying to expediate the rebuild".

Dickinson and Askarov were both 11th overall picks and the Karlsson trade they also got 14th overall.

I'd take 11-14th overall, any first really, for Rust, Rakell, or Karlsson, but that's not what we were talking about before you so rudely jumped in calling people dumb.

 

[Gurglesons]

How have those deals "expedited the rebuild", though? Dickinson is a great piece, but the rest is pretty middling and they're still an awful team.

Selling guys just to say you sold them is absolutely not how you properly do a rebuild. If you're only getting offered shit returns for them, you don't trade them. That said, I think it is extremely unlikely they're only getting offered shit returns for them.

What do you mean?

Since Grier joined that franchise he's moved players and allowed the Sharks to bottom out while amassing foundational core pieces in Celebrini, Smith, Askarov, and Dickinson.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dickinson and Askarov were both 11th overall picks and the Karlsson trade they also got 14th overall.

I'd take 11-14th overall, any first really, for Rust, Rakell, or Karlsson, but that's not what we were talking about before you so rudely jumped in calling people dumb.

The mindset that we need to maximize Rakell and Rust's returns is dumb, not you.

These are tertiary players. Any value you can get on a 30+ year old with term left on their deal is value. You also can then place a younger player or a UFA / trade asset into that role and rinse and repeat.

 

[Empoleon8771]

What do you mean?

Since Grier joined that franchise he's moved players and allowed the Sharks to bottom out while amassing foundational core pieces in Celebrini, Smith, Askarov, and Dickinson.

The trades they made had no bearing on their ability to bottom out and draft those guys. They picked Smith #4 in the season after Karlsson won the Norris for them, and they didn't trade Hertl until even later.

They finished 3rd worst in the NHL in 2022-2023 with Karlsson, Hertl, Couture and Meier on the roster.

 

[Gurglesons]

The trades they made had no bearing on their ability to bottom out and draft those guys. They picked Smith #4 in the season after Karlsson won the Norris for them, and they didn't trade Hertl until even later.

I'm not sure what is complex here.

The Sharks didn't worry about maximizing the returns for their pieces. They got value and moved on. That's what you should be doing as a team rebuilding.

Guentzel was the player you maximize the return for. We failed at that.

At this point, just amass as many 1sts as you can in the next two drafts and then go from there.

Rust and Rakell are literally adding nothing to this team now or in the future. Holding onto them is legitimately insane.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not sure what is complex here.

The Sharks didn't worry about maximizing the returns for their pieces. They got value and moved on. That's what you should be doing as a team rebuilding.

They didn't trade Karlsson until August 2023 and Hertl until the 2024 deadline. This idea that they just took the first crap offer they got for them is simply not true. They had already drafted Smith by the time they traded both of those guys and were already in a position to draft Celebrini in 2024 with keeping Hertl for most of the season.

 

[Jared Grayden]

I'm not sure what is complex here.

The Sharks didn't worry about maximizing the returns for their pieces. They got value and moved on. That's what you should be doing as a team rebuilding.

Guentzel was the player you maximize the return for. We failed at that.

At this point, just amass as many 1sts as you can in the next two drafts and then go from there.

Rust and Rakell are literally adding nothing to this team now or in the future. Holding onto them is legitimately insane.

Karlsson I can understand with his contract being difficult to extract value. There is effectively zero chance either Rust or Rakell will improve their values. At their ages and the seasons they just had, there won't be a meaningful better return than this summer. Look what happened to Kreider's value in just one year. These players can go from 1st+ returns to nothing very quickly.

 

[pistolpete11]

The mindset that we need to maximize Rakell and Rust's returns is dumb, not you.

These are tertiary players. Any value you can get on a 30+ year old with term left on their deal is value. You also can then place a younger player or a UFA / trade asset into that role and rinse and repeat.

At this point, just amass as many 1sts as you can in the next two drafts and then go from there.

How are you amassing 1sts without getting them for Rust, Rakell, or Karlsson?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Also who is arguing against trading Rakell or Rust for a 1st+? The point is that you don't trade them for a shitty return for the sake of trading them. If you're getting offered trades of a 1st+ for Rakell or Rust, you obviously take that. But no one (or almost no one) is suggesting otherwise.

The Sharks traded Burns in the summer of 2022, Meier at the 2023 deadline, Karlsson in the summer of 2023 and Hertl at the 2024 deadline, and that's a pretty aggressive selling of notable players. The Penguins don't need to gut themselves for the first offer they can get this off-season just to say they traded them. If you're not getting a reasonable offer for one of your main trade chips, you simply don't trade them right now. I think that's unlikely to happen, I think Rust will be getting huge offers and Rakell will be getting good offers, but it's totally possible that the market isn't working out for one reason or another.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Malkin has been strictly worse since the COVID shutdown. The '19-'20 season he was their best player, easily. But then he was dreadful when they came back in 2021, saved by Kapanen being on the right cocktail of drugs to dominate for a month. He's had some highs and lows since then, but I don't think he's gotten notably worse in the last couple of years. As you mentioned, it's also been linemate-dependent.

He is still a far way off to how awful Carter was in his last year here. And he's earned the right to embarass himself on the ice like that if he wants to. The team isn't going anywhere regardless.

Sidney Crosby is also linemate dependent. Malkin had arm and knee issues that he's had sorted in that time frame you're talking about. So what makes Malkin lesser than Sid when both need better linemates?

Oh right, the coach took away the linemates that Malkin did well with, to make sure Crosby did better. Even going as far as moving Malkin to wing to play with Crosby.

Blokes can go eat shit with the call outs to Geno while sitting there ignorant as shit to Crosby having the same f***ing issues. Sid had Jake helping him get a f***ton of points, then when he didn't, they happily f***ed over Geno to make sure he had someone else rather than trying youth or anyone else with Crosby, the go to move was lets keep taking whomever does best with Geno, to put with Crosby and then blame Malkin for struggling with lesser linemates as his downfall due to age.

This isn't opinion either mate.

THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT THEY f***ING DID.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I find it interesting that Rossi hasn't shared anything about Malkin or even shared Yohe's article on social media. He shared other content from The Athletic today, but not the big hockey story from his colleague.

Out of all of the local media, Rossi has gotten more one-on-ones and exclusives with Malkin. I can't help but wonder if Rossi has heard something different than Yohe but doesn't want to contradict his longtime colleague.

Rossi has been less....Rossi the last couple of years. Ever since he did that article on Hextall with Yohe, he kind of decided that might be the joke of an article that makes him want to change his style and not be such a massive wankbucket anymore or as frequently. Because he's posted some articles that also sort of conflict things Yohe thinks and I think they don't see eye to eye on topics anymore and I wonder if it started with Sullivan lol.

But Rossi seemed to always have more info on Geno, for him to be the quietest, says a lot when a shit stain like Yohe posts something dumb, which is just a normal Yohe thing to do.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Well, sure. But I mean even the golden child Gavin McKenna is not a franchise center. So maybe the next wave of Penguins will be built differently than what we have known in the past.

If the expectation is that we will bottom out, get two franchise centers and rinse/repeat, people around here are going to be in for quite a letdown.

Again, the key for me will be to avoid becoming the next Buffalo or Chicago.

A franchise winger with a pretty good #1C works for me. I don't think we need that franchise lad to be a centre personally.

 

[Gurglesons]

Also who is arguing against trading Rakell or Rust for a 1st+? The point is that you don't trade them for a shitty return for the sake of trading them. If you're getting offered trades of a 1st+ for Rakell or Rust, you obviously take that. But no one (or almost no one) is suggesting otherwise.

The Sharks traded Burns in the summer of 2022, Meier at the 2023 deadline, Karlsson in the summer of 2023 and Hertl at the 2024 deadline, and that's a pretty aggressive selling of notable players. The Penguins don't need to gut themselves for the first offer they can get this off-season just to say they traded them. If you're not getting a reasonable offer for one of your main trade chips, you simply don't trade them right now. I think that's unlikely to happen, I think Rust will be getting huge offers and Rakell will be getting good offers, but it's totally possible that the market isn't working out for one reason or another.

I'm saying if a team offers you a 1st for them send them out even if it involves a cap dump coming back.

That's what Dubas should be doing. You can easily find a top six winger to pump value into during UFA or via trade.

 

[Gurglesons]

They didn't trade Karlsson until August 2023 and Hertl until the 2024 deadline. This idea that they just took the first crap offer they got for them is simply not true. They had already drafted Smith by the time they traded both of those guys and were already in a position to draft Celebrini in 2024 with keeping Hertl for most of the season.

Brent Burns and Erik Karlsson were Norris caliber defensemen.

Hertl was 29.

Meier was 26.

There is a big difference between waiting on trading Meier or Hertl given their age versus a 31 and 33 year complimentary winger who both probably just put up career numbers.

Sharks didn't move Karlsson because they couldn't given his contract. The moment they could, they pulled the trigger.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Back and forth we go.

 

[Darren McCord]

Well, sure. But I mean even the golden child Gavin McKenna is not a franchise center. So maybe the next wave of Penguins will be built differently than what we have known in the past.

If the expectation is that we will bottom out, get two franchise centers and rinse/repeat, people around here are going to be in for quite a letdown.

Again, the key for me will be to avoid becoming the next Buffalo or Chicago.

Thats why we dont bottom out. We let the rangers do it for us . Now we just need anything team to give us their first and then suck as well!