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In the meantime, feel free to join our Discord ServerThe topic being discussed was Dubas' attempts at returning the team to contention upon his first arriving in Pittsburgh. By definition, this meant becoming immediate contenders again.I am not asking that they become immediate contenders but lol at your zero sum theory thinking.
And get a perfect score because it is the correct answer.“There is no right answer here” you scribble on the essay portion of the test.
Disappointment hasn't followed Dubas his entire career, so this is yet another incorrect claim that you've made.
(There was supposed to have been a photo of Dubas lifting the Calder Cup here, but the forum isn't loading photos right now.)
Wow, 5 years! That's such a long time. Every other team won a Cup during that time, why didn't the Leafs?How was Dubas’ Leafs tenure not disappointing? His mission was to win a Cup and he managed 1 playoff round win in 5 years.
Sure, because those expectations weren't realistic.How has Dubas’ tenure here not been disappointing when he was given one shot to get the team back respectability and did nothing but sign negative value contracts and keep a failed coaching staff together while the playoffs slipped away?
The goalposts may have shifted in terms of expectations,
The fact that success was impossible means that failure was also impossible.but it doesn’t take away the previous failure.
For this season and perhaps the next one, they certainly have.I’m glad that our aspirations have shifted from Stanley Cups to Calder Cups.
The good thing is that if we are fortunate to draft a player of Auston Matthews’ caliber here soon (which isn’t likely), we’ve got a GM capable of building a team around him good enough to win one playoff round in half a decade.Wow, 5 years! That's such a long time. Every other team won a Cup during that time, why didn't the Leafs?
Sure, because those expectations weren't realistic.
The fact that success was impossible means that failure was also impossible.
For this season and perhaps the next one, they certainly have.
This is fundamentally a bad take & wrong analysis on Dubas on all fronts. Toronto is a losing organization going back decades. Not only have they not a won a Cup since the Pens entered the league, they haven’t even been to a Final in all that time. That’s not on Dubas at all. It’s headed by Shanahan which tells you all you need to know.The problem is essentially every decision he made to give them one last run was the wrong one, and some people expect that he’s going to suddenly figure out how to make the right moves when it is needed despite all the data we have about his career being the opposite.
It's entirely possible that it's just the mix of Matthews, Nylander, and Marner, and not Matthews himself, but if not, I hope that we don't draft a player of Auston Matthews' caliber. Auston Matthews does not seem to be the caliber of player who wins in the playoffs.The good thing is that if we are fortunate to draft a player of Auston Matthews’ caliber here soon (which isn’t likely), we’ve got a GM capable of building a team around him good enough to win one playoff round in half a decade.
Yea, Shanahan was really running the show in Toronto and FSG won’t let him fire Sully. Always a boogyman. For a guy that is so brilliant, his teams seem pretty hesitant to give him total autonomy if that is true.This is fundamentally a bad take & wrong analysis on Dubas on all fronts. Toronto is a losing organization going back decades. Not only have they not a won a Cup since the Pens entered the league, they haven’t even been to a Final in all that time. That’s not on Dubas at all. It’s headed by Shanahan which tells you all you need to know.
Dubas was the GM who guided that team to a playoff win for the first time in 20 years & built the Marlies Calder Cup title team a few years ago. Over the past 12 months, he’s created a ton of cap space & restocked draft capital. We essentially have 4 drafts over the next 3 seasons. No one comes close. And getting 2nd & 4th round picks for Luke Schenn is a master move.
He made 4 big moves his first summer here:You mention that every decision he made to give them one last run was wrong. How so? Bringing in the reigning Norris Trophy winner to fix an anemic power play? Bringing in a veteran who just came off a Cup? You know, guys have to produce too & coaches have to properly utilize the talent given.
When Kyle Dubas pulls off a Ron Francis or Rick Tocchet or Trevor Daley trade that helps to secure a Cup then we can write off his fumbles like CP and JR. Until then, he’s just another mediocre GM fumbling around.I’ll grant you the Jarry contract was a bust & a misread, but hey, Craig Patrick traded Makus Naslund too, so there’s that. All GMs make bad decisions from time to time, but good GMs also try & fix their mistakes & create better opportunity for the future (see my point about 4 drafts in the next 3). Even now, they have the cap space to keep Jarry if they wanted to keep him another year vs a buyout (not saying this will happen nor advocating for it, but they could do so to possibly increase the potential on a trade scenario).
This organization would be in a better position today had we not made the move and got a competent coach instead. Granlund would have just been traded for a good return. Rutta too, assuming he wasn’t hurt like what prevented SJ from selling him.Perhaps you might be more comfortable with having Jeff Petry & Jan Rutta trolling the blue line instead.
They have nearly $17 million in cap spaceWithout a ton of cap space the issues on this club aren't going away. The thought of "one more time w.Sid" - folks aren't putting the roster ahead of that conversation. Say we get a good start:
- Sully gets fired. Preferably the morning after we're officially out of the playoffs (aren't we already?)
- We land Marner in FA
Great...what about goaltending? Vodoo? Sure...what about our D corps? Still have an absolutely WEAK top 6 forward group WITH Marner. Top line? Sure - Geno-Sid-Marner will get her done. If they bring in a 2C and keep one of Raks/Rust - you have the makings of an acceptable albeit not overly thrilling second line. And that's where we drop off of a cliff.
I love the idea and hate how putrid and uninspiring this club has been. It's genuinely a chore to watch 80-90% of the games (being generous) - so the games I DO turn in to, often fall flat. I'd rather win, always. Just seems practically impossible going forward...and certainly in Sid's 1C window. I think part of this logic is why folks don't buy "trying to go in or load up one more time"....how exactly? If that were even remotely the case why wouldn't you have been in on the Tarasenko's of yesteryear, Hall, etc? Zero top 6 help in Dubas' tenure and the construction of the D corps is ultra bad. Good thing we have....some of the worst goaltending too.
They were the best moves available at the time. Hindsight is awesome but it's not real.The problem is essentially every decision he made to give them one last run was the wrong one, and some people expect that he’s going to suddenly figure out how to make the right moves when it is needed despite all the data we have about his career being the opposite.
Regardless of the market intent, you don’t give him the credit when it’s due. That was a bold & brilliant move.Yea, Shanahan was really running the show in Toronto and FSG won’t let him fire Sully. Always a boogyman. For a guy that is so brilliant, his teams seem pretty hesitant to give him total autonomy if that is true.
It would be a master move if the entire league wasn’t trading crappy players for massive pick returns. He got market value, which is good, but the bare minimum of the job. One of the reasons teams have been so free to ship picks around for 25 and 26 is that many are not too keen on the draft classes. We shall see if Dubas can find the gems in the rough.
He made 4 big moves his first summer here:
-Re-signed Jarry - Abject failure that everyone agrees with, and many of us called before it was even done.
-Signing Graves. Doesn’t matter how or why he has busted here, he has. That falls on the guy that signed the contract.
-Trading for Karlsson. Nobody has an issue with the asset management. How did that PP look last year after bringing him in? The fit has been terrible, mostly due to…
-Keeping Sullivan. He’s still here. His system is still getting caved every night. Dubas also sat and watched that anemic PP for another full season under a boob of an assistant coach as we missed the playoffs again because of it.
When Kyle Dubas pulls off a Ron Francis or Rick Tocchet or Trevor Daley trade that helps to secure a Cup then we can write off his fumbles like CP and JR. Until then, he’s just another mediocre GM fumbling around.
This organization would be in a better position today had we not made the move and got a competent coach instead. Granlund would have just been traded for a good return. Rutta too, assuming he wasn’t hurt like what prevented SJ from selling him.
Again, the issue wasn’t trading for Karlsson. It was trading for Karlsson and then watching the coach neuter the player from doing the only thing he is great at in the name of playing the “right” way.
Regardless of the market intent, you don’t give him the credit when it’s due. That was a bold & brilliant move.
Sully is the highest paid coach in the league on a multi-year deal. FSG isn’t willing to eat that contract on a mediocre aging core that had/has no shot at a Cup. That’s bad business. People forget that. This is a business whether Mario or FSG own the majority stake. And here’s the thing, Mario did own the team during the supposed “bad days of Sully” too & didn’t fire him either. I personally don’t care who coaches this roster now since they aren’t competitive.
Again, look at the whole body of work vs your narrow minded agenda/bias. Before Dubas, we had an aging roster, limited cap space, a bad prospect pool, & Jeff Carter. Now, we have a younger roster, a good amount of cap space, the pipeline being restocked, & roster flexibility.
Considering he was fired two days after saying that he had to make big changes to the roster by Shanny, I'd say he didn't have full control in TOR. Looking at TOR now, on the verge of losing Marner for nothing in the summer, I'd say he was 100% correct in his thinking.How was Dubas’ Leafs tenure not disappointing? His mission was to win a Cup and he managed 1 playoff round win in 5 years.
How has Dubas’ tenure here not been disappointing when he was given one shot to get the team back respectability and did nothing but sign negative value contracts and keep a failed coaching staff together while the playoffs slipped away?
The goalposts may have shifted in terms of expectations, but it doesn’t take away the previous failure.
I’m glad that our aspirations have shifted from Stanley Cups to Calder Cups.
No, they don't. They simply don't care if it's good business or not. I mean, most normal people don't root for the owners bottom line, they root for the team on the ice. If it was still a locally-owned club, I'd be giving that line of thought more weight, but what should I or anyone care about a bunch of faceless Bostonian dipshits?People forget that