Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXVI: Sid is Still Goat

[AuroraBorealis]

It might be controversial, but I actually think the "rebuild but keep some of the core guys" method is the best. Yeah, you'd probably get a king's ransom for 87 and 17, but think of the intangibles those guys bring. If they're willing to stay, having those guys in particular around the next wave of young players will make all of those players better. You absolutely don't want a Bedard situation where the team is absolutely terrible and disheartening to the point where his play is affected by it. They may not have been able to get Bedard without bottoming out, yes, but don't you think Bedard would have benefitted from having Kane and Toews at least around?

The problem is Crosby and Rust's intangibles wouldn't be here at the critical time, when the team is ready to go on deep runs again.
We are forced to rely on the next wave. The organization just needs time, and many players don't have it on their side.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Also, bigger picture item from The Athletic's Mark Lazerus that's about Chicago but could be about the Penguins' path, too.

Lazerus notes that Chicago is currently on the classic tear it down completely, rebuild exclusively through the draft route that many GMs prefer. Only it hasn't worked in the Cap era, as most notably seen by Buffalo and Edmonton.

The new model is Florida.

Lazerus: Bill Zito’s Panthers, Kyle Davidson’s Blackhawks and the road not taken

It's long past time for Davidson to get aggressive, to start trying to win for real.

www.nytimes.com

How does this relate to the Pens? I think Dubas is positioning the Penguins to do something similar to Florida, with a mix of the Kings thrown in.

I think Dubas wants to build through the draft more than Florida did, but not as extreme as what Chicago is doing. If you can replicate what the Kings did by landing a Byfield and Clarke with a Top 10 and a Top 3 pick in back-to-back years and supplement that with prospects who you hit on in with an abundance of 2nd and 3rd round picks, then that gives you room to be aggressive in free agency and on the trade market like Florida.

The Kings also have vets like Doughty and Kopitar finishing out their careers, lending their knowledge to the younger players.

Florida, meanwhile, built a very specific culture and identity. It was aggressive in the pursuit of players who fit that mold, and hired a staff who could manage players within that framework. That'll be the other key for Dubas. It's one thing to identify good players and acquire them. It's another to put the pieces together and utilize them properly.

We'll see if he can pull it off.

You have to HAVE quality to GET quality.

Yes, FL took a huge gamble shipping Hubredeau. That could have blown up in their faces. I liken it to us trading Cullen for Francis or us trading Neal for Horny. Brining in a "lesser" talent for a better fit.

But who do we have that is our Huberdeau/Neal/Cullen?
This team is 4 untouchables (Sid, Geno, Letang, Rust- sadly) and 18 clowns.

Outside of the 4 names I listed, there is no one you can say "yes this dude is one of the top 10 players at his position". You could say that about Neal and Hubredeau. Not with this current roster of crap.

So they need to take another route and that is accumulating a ton of picks and scratch offs in hopes you land a franchise guy. That's what Dubas is doing bc there is literally no other way.

 

[Deport Ogie]

IF. Once again I think people will be disappointed when they aren’t moved.

I don't think most folk will be surprised if they aren't moved this week. EK always made more sense for offseason and Rakell is probably staying unless someone loses out on other wingers and gets frantic.

If 65 is still on this roster to start next season, then I think we can start to question it.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We'd be lucky to get any of the top 4 in this year's draft, but if we get Martone...I mean at some point we're going to have to start adding forwards who can skate, ya know?

It's a league predicated on speed but it seems like every noteworthy forward prospect we have has skating issues. McG, Koivunen, Pono, Fernstrom, Ilyin...

 

[eXile3]

We'd be lucky to get any of the top 4 in this year's draft, but if we get Martone...I mean at some point we're going to have to start adding forwards who can skate, ya know?

It's a league predicated on speed but it seems like every noteworthy forward prospect we have has skating issues. McG, Koivunen, Pono, Fernstrom, Ilyin...

It’s only the most important aspect of todays game.

We also need to start adding some centers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

We'd be lucky to get any of the top 4 in this year's draft, but if we get Martone...I mean at some point we're going to have to start adding forwards who can skate, ya know?

It's a league predicated on speed but it seems like every noteworthy forward prospect we have has skating issues. McG, Koivunen, Pono, Fernstrom, Ilyin...

If Martone becomes what he's projected to become (another Tkachuk/Perry type of winger), I won't care in the least how good of a skater he is.

 

[Khelandros]

It might be controversial, but I actually think the "rebuild but keep some of the core guys" method is the best. Yeah, you'd probably get a king's ransom for 87 and 17, but think of the intangibles those guys bring. If they're willing to stay, having those guys in particular around the next wave of young players will make all of those players better. You absolutely don't want a Bedard situation where the team is absolutely terrible and disheartening to the point where his play is affected by it. They may not have been able to get Bedard without bottoming out, yes, but don't you think Bedard would have benefitted from having Kane and Toews at least around?

Friend, can I direct your attention?

Confirmed with Link: Thread 'The Official Bryan Rust is Mid Thread'

Dec 2, 2024

Yinz know it. I know it. I'm just brave enough to start it off.

The future of Penguins hockey is here, his name is Bryan Rust, and he'll be skating loops in the neutral zone until April.

They say every Pens generation needs its Bob Errey, well ours is store brand and his name is Bryan Rust.

Sullivan hockey? Its name is Bryan Rust.

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[Dipsy Doodle]

You have to HAVE quality to GET quality.

Yes, FL took a huge gamble shipping Hubredeau. That could have blown up in their faces. I liken it to us trading Cullen for Francis or us trading Neal for Horny. Brining in a "lesser" talent for a better fit.

But who do we have that is our Huberdeau/Neal/Cullen?
This team is 4 untouchables (Sid, Geno, Letang, Rust- sadly) and 18 clowns.

Outside of the 4 names I listed, there is no one you can say "yes this dude is one of the top 10 players at his position". You could say that about Neal and Hubredeau. Not with this current roster of crap.

So they need to take another route and that is accumulating a ton of picks and scratch offs in hopes you land a franchise guy. That's what Dubas is doing bc there is literally no other way.

Not necessarily. Look at what the Caps did. They picked Strome off the trash heap for a one year 3.5 mil deal. They traded Kuemper, who had Jarry-esque numbers last year, for Dubois.

Thse are their top 2 centers and they gave up nothing for them. The only things it took was being pro-active and taking on some risk. We could have had either of those players, who are now in their prime and leading the Caps' resurgence.

A lot of posters here shat on the idea of adding Dubois. But we can weaponize our cap space and take some risks to try to accelerate the retool.

 

[pensfan71]

Not necessarily. Look at what the Caps did. They picked Strome off the trash heap for a one year 3.5 mil deal. They traded Kuemper, who had Jarry-esque numbers last year, for Dubois.

Thse are their top 2 centers and they gave up nothing for them. The only things it took was being pro-active and taking on some risk. We could have had either of those players, who are now in their prime and leading the Caps' resurgence.

A lot of posters here shat on the idea of adding Dubois though.

PLD would've been an albatross w. Sullivan tbh

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Florida already had a lot of the foundations for a contender in place thanks to many years of high draft picks. Zito did a great job, of course but the situation of the Penguins is rather different to that of the Panthers in 2020 when Zito took over.

It's not a one-to-one comparison. The point was that Florida is a portion of what I think Dubas is trying to do in the sense that he'll eventually be aggressive in free agency and through trades, while also adding key pieces through draft and development.

I thought it was also to point out how much the pure draft approach has struggled of late in the NHL.

The Pens can't copy any specific path, but they can take elements that have worked elsewhere and put those pieces together for their own rebuild.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If Martone becomes what he's projected to become (another Tkachuk/Perry type of winger), I won't care in the least how good of a skater he is.

True.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Not necessarily. Look at what the Caps did. They picked Strome off the trash heap for a one year 3.5 mil deal. They traded Kuemper, who had Jarry-esque numbers last year, for Dubois.

Thse are their top 2 centers and they gave up nothing for them. The only things it took was being pro-active and taking on some risk. We could have had either of those players, who are now in their prime and leading the Caps' resurgence.

A lot of posters here shat on the idea of adding Dubois. But we can weaponize our cap space and take some risks to try to accelerate the retool.

I still think Dubois would have been a mistake to add, even with his vastly improved play. He has improved significantly but I still don't think he's worth his contract.

I agree with you that they need to be operating similar to the Capitals though, that's why I think Zegras makes a ton of sense for them. He falls in that same category as Strome, it's just a question of how they can acquire him for an appropriate cost. Ducks fans want the moon for him but I think he'd bring back far less if he was actually getting traded.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

PLD would've been an albatross w. Sullivan tbh

The coach the Caps have now is the same coach that saw them squeak into the playoffs and get swept last year.

We can't discount every move another team makes by saying "yeah but Sullivan". If there's one thing we know, he'll give a ton of rope to vets on albatross contracts.

 

[Gurglesons]

They have 4 1sts and 4 2nds, with likely more on the way with trading Rakell and Karlsson.

If Dubas does that then I'll be a little more inclided to give him some proprs.

It's not a one-to-one comparison. The point was that Florida is a portion of what I think Dubas is trying to do in the sense that he'll eventually be aggressive in free agency and through trades, while also adding key pieces through draft and development.

I thought it was also to point out how much the pure draft approach has struggled of late in the NHL.

The Pens can't copy any specific path, but they can take elements that have worked elsewhere and put those pieces together for their own rebuild.

If you're going to use that as a barometer shouldn't the Kings and current Rangers state be a reason why you shouldn't try to "rebuild on the fly".

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

True.

I think skating issues overblown. I think it’s more of a “not moving his feet constantly” issue. Could he add some explosiveness/quicks? Sure.

@Jacob compared him as a bigger Marner which I found really apt.

 

[Gurglesons]

For the record...

Caps 3 1sts and 4 2nds.
Sharks 4 1sts and 4 2nds
Hawks 5 1sts and 7 2nds
Preds 5 1sts and 5 2nds.

These are probably the closest teams in terms of outlook to us... (i.e. old veteran teams trying to rebuild)

Weird how when you add 3rds it looks like we are doing so great. Now if we are here next year and Dubas has the Pens looking like the Hawks, I'll give him some credit.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I just finished listening to the 32 thoughts podcast (for what felt like all afternoon!) and I came away somewhat encouraged. Friedman mentioned Acciari's name among the "centers" teams are looking at. I really hope so. This player is such a shell of what he was before he got here. I would take anything for him at this point.

Now, this Buffalo thing is weird. There has to be some fire to all of this smoke. We have heard that Dubas has interest in some of Buffalo's young players for much of the regular season, and now Friedman said it again. What I have a hard time comprehending is what Buffalo would want in return. I mean now Friedman is saying Peterka is on our radar. None of this makes much sense to me. I mean, if the Sabres don't want to pay a guy like Peterka what he is going to be worth, they sure as shit won't want Karlsson. Do they think Rakell is better cost certainty? Do they want Rust (if he were to waive, which Dubas has said he would not ask)? I doubt Noel Acciari moves the needle. LOL

I can't see a trade with Buffalo that we end up losing, so that is encouraging.

 

[Gurglesons]

I just finished listening to the 32 thoughts podcast (for what felt like all afternoon!) and I came away somewhat encouraged. Friedman mentioned Acciari's name among the "centers" teams are looking at. I really hope so. This player is such a shell of what he was before he got here. I would take anything for him at this point.

Now, this Buffalo thing is weird. There has to be some fire to all of this smoke. We have heard that Dubas has interest in some of Buffalo's young players for much of the regular season, and now Friedman said it again. What I have a hard time comprehending is what Buffalo would want in return. I mean now Friedman is saying Peterka is on our radar. None of this makes much sense to me. I mean, if the Sabres don't want to pay a guy like Peterka what he is going to be worth, they sure as shit won't want Karlsson. Do they think Rakell is better cost certainty? Do they want Rust (if he were to waive, which Dubas has said he would not ask)? I doubt Noel Acciari moves the needle. LOL

I can't see a trade with Buffalo that we end up losing, so that is encouraging.

Rust loses all trade protection and feels like a logical piece Buffalo's idiotic management would want. Plus you have the Sam Ventura connection in Buffalo.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

If you're going to use that as a barometer shouldn't the Kings and current Rangers state be a reason why you shouldn't try to "rebuild on the fly".

There is no such thing as a perfect method to build a Cup winner. Along with identifying and acquiring players, you need the proper support system in place, and you need good coaching and player development.

Neither the Rangers nor the Kings have had all of those elements yet, which is why I mentioned the need for Dubas to get those elements along with the right players.

 

[Gurglesons]

I still think Dubois would have been a mistake to add, even with his vastly improved play. He has improved significantly but I still don't think he's worth his contract.

I agree with you that they need to be operating similar to the Capitals though, that's why I think Zegras makes a ton of sense for them. He falls in that same category as Strome, it's just a question of how they can acquire him for an appropriate cost. Ducks fans want the moon for him but I think he'd bring back far less if he was actually getting traded.

67 point Selke finalists aren't worth 8.5 mil?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I still think Dubois would have been a mistake to add, even with his vastly improved play. He has improved significantly but I still don't think he's worth his contract.

I agree with you that they need to be operating similar to the Capitals though, that's why I think Zegras makes a ton of sense for them. He falls in that same category as Strome, it's just a question of how they can acquire him for an appropriate cost. Ducks fans want the moon for him but I think he'd bring back far less if he was actually getting traded.

Yep, young-ish players with a rare skillset who need a change of scenery and are making more than they're currently worth so they would not cost much in terms of assets is what we should be targeting.

That way we can keep adding youth via the draft to supplement the bigger money gambles.

 

[Gurglesons]

There is no such thing as a perfect method to build a Cup winner. Along with identifying and acquiring players, you need the proper support system in place, and you need good coaching and player development.

Neither the Rangers nor the Kings have had all of those elements yet, which is why I mentioned the need for Dubas to get those elements along with the right players.

How about Dubas just does what is right for the Penguins?

He has done that twice in a "big" trade since coming here.

EK65 being followed up with nothing of consequence erases that for me.

 

[Jacob]

Jack Quinn seems more like the kind of guy we'd be targeting from Buffalo.

 

[SEALBound]

Also, bigger picture item from The Athletic's Mark Lazerus that's about Chicago but could be about the Penguins' path, too.

Lazerus notes that Chicago is currently on the classic tear it down completely, rebuild exclusively through the draft route that many GMs prefer. Only it hasn't worked in the Cap era, as most notably seen by Buffalo and Edmonton.

The new model is Florida.

Lazerus: Bill Zito’s Panthers, Kyle Davidson’s Blackhawks and the road not taken

It's long past time for Davidson to get aggressive, to start trying to win for real.

www.nytimes.com

How does this relate to the Pens? I think Dubas is positioning the Penguins to do something similar to Florida, with a mix of the Kings thrown in.

I think Dubas wants to build through the draft more than Florida did, but not as extreme as what Chicago is doing. If you can replicate what the Kings did by landing a Byfield and Clarke with a Top 10 and a Top 3 pick in back-to-back years and supplement that with prospects who you hit on in with an abundance of 2nd and 3rd round picks, then that gives you room to be aggressive in free agency and on the trade market like Florida.

The Kings also have vets like Doughty and Kopitar finishing out their careers, lending their knowledge to the younger players.

Florida, meanwhile, built a very specific culture and identity. It was aggressive in the pursuit of players who fit that mold, and hired a staff who could manage players within that framework. That'll be the other key for Dubas. It's one thing to identify good players and acquire them. It's another to put the pieces together and utilize them properly.

We'll see if he can pull it off.

Such a crappy nothing article. No cup winning has exclusively built their team off the draft. There is ALWAYS a balance of draft, trade, and sign. Penguins won all 5 cups based on that. BUT the ONE commonality in all of them including Florida is a top pick that is a franchise center. Mario, Crosby/Malkin, Barkov with other top picks playing a supporting role - Francis, Jagr, Malkin, Staal, Kessel, Huberdeau at 3ov who got them Tkachuk at 6ov, Ekblad.

You have to have the high draft pick that turns into the franchise player to build around. Not very often on comes available for trade like Eichel. Your best bet is to draft them. Then build from the draft, free agency, and the trade market. That's hardly a secret. Again, garbage article.

I think looking at the "Florida" model also reminds you that there is always a fair element of luck involved. Verhaeghe panning out, Luostarinen making an impact, Forsling blossoming from a waiver wire dman to a top pairing stud, a world-class goalie that is willing to sign with you in Bobs, Reinhart and Bennett being available for VERY reasonable prices...while some of these are considered shrewd moves - there's a strong element of "well that f***ing worked out well" that doesn't happen all that often. Just like JR in 2016 where every trade was coal to diamonds.

 

[Empoleon8771]

67 point Selke finalists aren't worth 8.5 mil?

PLD is absolutely not going to be a Selke finalist. He's not worth $8.5 million.