Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXV - Poolman and Poolparty?!?

[eXile3]

I mean, fair point, but the retention slots are there to be used. If you can figure out a better way to use 3 retention slots then I'm all ears but using one of them to grab a first+ sounds good to me.

We’re still using a slot for Jack Johnson next year. Buyouts are dumb.

 

[molon labe]

Unless we're talking 1st(s) plural- no point in retaining anything right now. We continue to suck, and become the suckiest of suck - then we open the phone lines for contract dumps or act as a third party to facilitate retention slots for more picks.

Retaining this early into a tank would be silly.

[ I say this, assuming full tank, without knowing our Summer plans - because we've literally not made any roster moves which point towards 'competing' in the short term. Should we shed Karlsson/Letang and target a Marner or something, different conversations....]

 

[Gurglesons]

We’re still using a slot for Jack Johnson next year. Buyouts are dumb.

That's a buyout. Not cap retention.

We have one right now. We have two coming off the books in Reilly Smith and Jeff Petry this season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean you can say this. But I don't think this happens. I don't think anyone touches that contract at full value. I'd rather just retain.

Also acting like it's 4 years is weird. It's this year and 3 more.

You keep saying this but it doesn't make sense. Rakell is on pace for like 40 goals and 70 points this year. If he were a UFA, he would be getting a larger deal than the 3 years and $5 million he has left.

Why though?

Nobody pays for wingers. Especially 30+ wingers on gargantuan deals.

Rakell's cap hit is tied for 190th in the NHL.

 

[Gurglesons]

You keep saying this but it doesn't make sense. Rakell is on pace for like 40 goals and 70 points this year. If he were a UFA, he would be getting a larger deal than the 3 years and $5 million he has left.

GMs don't trade for those types of contracts even though they sign them every UFA.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

We’re still using a slot for Jack Johnson next year. Buyouts are dumb.

Buyouts are not the same as retention slots. Just a fyi.

 

[Empoleon8771]

GMs don't trade for those types of contracts even though they sign them every UFA.

Toffoli was traded for Sharangovich and a 3rd like 1 off-season ago when he had 2 years left on his deal. Or we can also point at Hextall trading a 2nd for Granlund.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Rakell is not a negative contract. Sending him to Tampa at 50% would be 2 firsts range value wise. That certainly is not taking back Sheary in the deal worth it.

I mean, they are paying Guentzel 9.0 for what Rakell is basically doing, and they'd be getting him at a 1/3 the price for 3 years.

That's their 1st 2026/2027 (their choice), Kings 2nd 2025 and Connor Geekie

Rakell at 50% 2.5 for 3 years

 

[SEALBound]

I don't think Rakell's deal is that bad. If you have a need for a good top 6 LW/RW, Rakell is as good of an option as any. I'm not sure you can get his performance for a $5mil x 3yr deal in free agency.

 

[Pancakes]

My previous post just outlined that I’d rather make 4 separate TDL retention moves to net 4 extra picks rather than to increase Rakell’s value and move up 20 slots in a draft one time (assuming return is going from 2nd to 1st by retaining on him)

That's a fair opinion to have. I'm not sure I agree.

Thing is that first gives Dubas a lot of ammunition to package it with other assets to move up in the first round. @Gurglesons mentioned Mike Grier. Grier got a first in the Karlsson deal which he packaged to move up in the draft and grab the highly regarded Sam Dickinson.

If Dubas being able to do something like that requires a first then is that not worth upgrading on that second round pick?

Also in the example Gurgleson's mentioned he had us getting a second round pick back as well. So it's not like we're just talking a difference of a second versus a first. We're talking getting a first *and* a second. That's moving up from no slot in the draft to being in the top 32 lol.

 

[SEALBound]

Why though?

Nobody pays for wingers. Especially 30+ wingers on gargantuan deals.

Ron Hextall did.

 

[eXile3]

Buyouts are not the same as retention slots. Just an fyi.

Got it. Thank you.

 

[Gurglesons]

Toffoli was traded for Sharangovich and a 3rd like 1 off-season ago when he had 2 years left on his deal. Or we can also point at Hextall trading a 2nd for Granlund.

So not a 2nd and an off season acquisition for a UFA.

Tyler Pitlick, Emil Heineman, 2022 conditional first round pick and 2023 fifth round pick. I believe you are referencing this trade. Toffoli had two years left and was 29. I think that's a bit different than the Rakell situation.

Is Ron Hextall around to pay a 2nd for Granlund?

Ron Hextall did.

See above.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's a fair opinion to have. I'm not sure I agree.

Thing is that first gives Dubas a lot of ammunition to package it with other assets to move up in the first round. @Gurglesons mentioned Mike Grier. Grier got a first in the Karlsson deal which he packaged to move up in the draft and grab the highly regarded Sam Dickinson.

If Dubas being able to do something like that requires a first then is that not worth upgrading on that second round pick?

Also in the example Gurgleson's mentioned he had us getting a second round pick back as well. So it's not like we're just talking a difference of a second versus a first. We're talking getting a first *and* a second. That's moving up from no slot in the draft to being in the top 32 lol.

Yep. The Penguins like the Sharks shouldn't be in the position of waiting this out.

They should be making moves to maximize their assets and turn this around as fast as possible.

 

[cookthebooks]

the on ice product along with the off ice ice hurry up and wait is killing me

 

[Ulf5]

Rakell is not a negative contract. Sending him to Tampa at 50% would be 2 firsts range value wise. That certainly is not taking back Sheary in the deal worth it.

I mean, they are paying Guentzel 9.0 for what Rakell is basically doing, and they'd be getting him at a 1/3 the price for 3 years.

That's their 1st 2026/2027 (their choice), Kings 2nd 2025 and Connor Geekie

Rakell at 50% 2.5 for 3 years

Dubas said he doesn't plan to do any long-term retention. I think a retention on MP would be kind of a waste. Most of his cap will be paid. And there should be sufficient competition for his services that the return should be good.
Grizz and Bunting on their own won't get an outstanding return. If I'm Dubas maybe you can get a quality return as a package with retention on Bunting. And throwing another team like a 4th or 5th to retain a bit more on Bunting.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Can we stop talking about a full rebuild? A full rebuild for this organization means trading Crosby, Karlsson, Letang and Malkin. The Blackhawks did a full rebuild, trading Kane for pennies on the dollar, trading DeBrincat for a meh return, NON-TENDERING Dylan Strome and letting Toews walk at the end of the season. That is a full tear-down that requires a full rebuild. How's that working out for them?

A full rebuild (because it will be after 87 is done playing) will occur, and it probably will be a brand new build instead of a rebuild unless we find building blocks in these next three years. We might be starting over completely by then, with Pickering and Blomqvist and maybe one or two other guys hanging around.

I have said this before, but every rebuild still needs players to fill out lineups. For my money, Rakell is our Dylan Strome. He is perfectly fine playing next to 87 as long as possible. Rust is an organizational teacher's pet, so I doubt he goes anywhere. And we should not be going out of our way to deal the core pieces because they are all net positives, not the type of players we need to throw away for pennies on the dollar (with massive retention in Karlsson's case).

Dubas needs to take one last shot at fixing this thing sooner rather than later. There are superstar UFAs potentially on the market this summer. Dubas might have an in with one of them. He needs to lose the drek and start putting pressure on his coach to play some of his prized acquisitions (Koivunen, McGroarty, Ponomarev et al).

Then, and only then, if that fails, should we be talking about a full-on rebuild. By then, Crosby will be pushing 40 anyway.

Right now, my lineup for next season includes Crosby, Rakell, Rust, Malkin, McGroarty, Koivunen, Ponomarev, Karlsson, Letang, Pickering and Blomqvist. There are also others in the mix like Tomasino, Broz, Lizotte, Poulin, Bunting, Nedeljkovic, Brunicke, Howe and others. Let's see what else he brings in. I am all in on acquiring ready-made prospects right now. Keeping our firsts is imperative of course, but let's try to get some decent prospects who need to play. From Vancouver, Elias Pettersson (D) and Aatu Raty are exactly what I want to see us acquire. Edmonton's Matt Savoie; Buffalo's Isak Rosen, Noah Ostlund, Aleksandr Kisakov and Vsevolod Komarov are just some other names I want.

This should be the focus. You don't want to tear it down completely and Crosby does not want to leave. Embrace that because in today's pro sports world it is really rare that you can get that level of loyalty. Cherish it and work with it instead of trying to become the Chicago of the Eastern Conference. We have already been there, done that. And we probably will be there again.

But not now. Now is the time for young NHLers to be acquired for our expiring contracts, and for our AHL prospects to get a long look. This should not be that difficult to do.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Dubas said he doesn't plan to do any long-term retention. I think a retention on MP would be kind of a waste. Most of his cap will be paid. And there should be sufficient competition for his services that the return should be good.
Grizz and Bunting on their own won't get an outstanding return. If I'm Dubas maybe you can get a quality return as a package with retention on Bunting. And throwing another team like a 4th or 5th to retain a bit more on Bunting.

I agree, but the return on Petts would be better and it's only for his year.

Petts at 50% to a contender is beneficial to both teams. Same goes for Grzy.

Bunting would only be a single year and not that much to absorb at 2.250.

I'd have no issue retaining on any of them.

If I was to pick the top target to retain on, it would be Graves.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think the issue with holding onto all of Rakell, Bunting and Rust is that you won't really have spots for the young guys to play in appropriate roles without moving any of those guys. As is, you only have 1 top-6 spot opportunity and Tomasino, McGroarty and Koivunen competing for, and I think Hallander will also be in that competition next year if he ends up coming over. You're not really leaving opportunities open for young guys if you're holding onto all of your vets.

I wouldn't have any problem keeping Rakell, but I'm trading Bunting if I'm not trading Rakell. They need to open up opportunities for young guys to play and have a top-9 of something like:

Rakell-Crosby-Rust
McGroarty-Malkin-Koivunen
Hallander-Glass-Tomasino

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

We pick up Boqvist and trade a D here? Still very young at 24, probably give him a shot the rest of this season. But I haven't followed the Panthers much this year

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You move all of Rakell, Bunting and Rust the moment you find deals for each of them imo. They take up roster spots that could be used to develop/evaluate younger guys. They take up cap that can be weaponized to bring back draft picks or prospects. And they're not going to be getting any better or increasing their value due to age. Doesn't make sense to hang on to any of these guys, this is a team that should be focusing on getting into the top 3 of the next few drafts to try and reduce the post-Sid years of misery.

Doubt you get anything super valuable for any of the tradeable guys on this team, but Dubas should be working the phones nonstop to try and move them regardless.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

You move all of Rakell, Bunting and Rust the moment you find deals for each of them imo. They take up roster spots that could be used to develop/evaluate younger guys. They take up cap that can be weaponized to bring back draft picks or prospects. And they're not going to be getting any better or increasing their value due to age. Doesn't make sense to hang on to any of these guys, this is a team that should be focusing on getting into the top 3 of the next few drafts to try and reduce the post-Sid years of misery.

Doubt you get anything super valuable for any of the tradeable guys on this team, but Dubas should be working the phones nonstop to try and move them regardless.

Agreed, and not only that, we will have plenty of cap space this summer, if you can free up an extra 15 million by moving guys like Rakell, Rust, Bunting or even EK, it's a no brainer!

 

[Empoleon8771]

You move all of Rakell, Bunting and Rust the moment you find deals for each of them imo. They take up roster spots that could be used to develop/evaluate younger guys. They take up cap that can be weaponized to bring back draft picks or prospects. And they're not going to be getting any better or increasing their value due to age. Doesn't make sense to hang on to any of these guys, this is a team that should be focusing on getting into the top 3 of the next few drafts to try and reduce the post-Sid years of misery.

Doubt you get anything super valuable for any of the tradeable guys on this team, but Dubas should be working the phones nonstop to try and move them regardless.

There needs to be a balance here though, go ask Buffalo how it has worked for them with only giving roster spots to young guys. It's why a large portion of their fans are basically begging the team to trade some prospects for NHL help, their prospect pool is insanely deep but the young guys aren't ready to carry the team yet.

That doesn't necessarily mean you have to keep Rakell, Bunting and Rust, but trading all of them and replacing them with young guys isn't the correct choice. It should be split more evenly between vets and young guys (I'd go 5 vets and 4 young guys in their top-9 personally) until the young guys firmly establish themselves as NHLers.

The goal for next year should be something like:

McGroarty-Crosby-Rakell
Koivunen-Malkin-Rust
Hallander-Glass-Tomasino
Lizotte-Ponomarev-Acciari

 

[Khelandros]

You move all of Rakell, Bunting and Rust the moment you find deals for each of them imo. They take up roster spots that could be used to develop/evaluate younger guys. They take up cap that can be weaponized to bring back draft picks or prospects. And they're not going to be getting any better or increasing their value due to age. Doesn't make sense to hang on to any of these guys, this is a team that should be focusing on getting into the top 3 of the next few drafts to try and reduce the post-Sid years of misery.

Doubt you get anything super valuable for any of the tradeable guys on this team, but Dubas should be working the phones nonstop to try and move them regardless.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think I'd leave most of the good WBS players in WBS this season. Keep them away from this shit show and hopefully let them go deep in the AHL playoffs.

Speaking of, I wonder if they recall Jarry around the trade deadline and send Blomqvist back. There's some sort of deadline for players to be eligible for the AHL playoffs.

Is it a deadline or games played on the roster?

Agreed, and not only that, we will have plenty of cap space this summer, if you can free up an extra 15 million by moving guys like Rakell, Rust, Bunting or even EK, it's a no brainer!

Cap space is the real valuable part of the return, IMO.