Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXV - Poolman and Poolparty?!?

[Andy99]

Exactly. Look I suppose I can at least UNDERSTAND the thought process with a guy like Glass and he's a good PKer and has some good points to his game defensively. But he's just not a top six player... likely a 3C even on a very bad team at best. And as you pointed out there are guys in-system that have more of a ceiling and might still be able to reach it.

I know Glass isn't old at all but some guys you can just tell have no idea what to do on one side of the puck or the other and that's Glass for sure. Why he has spent so much time glued to an already-struggling Malkin is far beyond my abilities to understand.

Glass is Mike Sullivan hockey’s perfect player…doesn’t make egregious mistakes, competitive forechecker, PKs…also doesn’t make anything happen offensively on the ice…perfect for no-event hockey lol…it’s just a shame hockey is a game where scoring goals wins you the game

 

[SEALBound]

Dubas knows that some people would prefer their team’s situation to be placed in a “very binary” position. “Either they want to say contending or whatever phrase you want to use – retooling, retool on the fly, replenish, renew, rebuild – whatever you want to say. I think every situation is unique in every different marketplace.”

“I'm a firm believer that if you throw everything overboard, you really have to be careful what you wish for, because you could go a long time before you're back to being a competitive and contending team,” Dubas said. “So, our focus is on trying to, as I always say, as urgently as possible bring in (what we can) using whatever means we have.”

Dubas isn't doing a full rebuild. If we finish in the top 5 this year and next those picks will be on the roster. He's acquiring assets to rebuild the team as fast as possible.

Based on Hextall and Dubas both saying this, it seems obvious that FSG is not comfortable with this team not attempting to be competitive.

To use other teams as the example, I think what he wants to avoid is being Chicago. You get Bedard and you literally can't surround him with shit. You have to go out and sign guys like Perry and Foligno to inflated contracts to get over the floor, meanwhile you've all but wasted Bedard's ELC. Hawks were very much in a "sell everything of value" mindset and I can say, I don't think it's serving them well. Now yes, they have Levshunov and Nazar coming and eventually another Top 3 pick but I think you want some nice pieces in place first, then add those kind of picks.

LA on the other hand, gets Byfield but still has a decent core of guys like Kopitar, Fiala, Kempe, etc. Or NJ who brings in Hughes but has Hischier, Bratt, Holtz, Mercer, etc where you are adding a premium asset to a group of young players vs starting off with a single piece then building.

Penguins did this from 00 to 05 - they got Orpik, Army, Whitney, MAF in the 1st rounds, then Malone, Christensen, Talbot, Gogo, Letang, Kennedy in the 2nd+ rounds. So when you add in Malkin and Sid, you can actually start surrounding those guys with some good talent. Now sure, some guys come from signings or trades but the early success of the Penguins starting in 07 was largely due to the mass of young players they were able to bring in and put around Sid and Geno. Them being generational talents sure helped.

But that's not unlike what is happening now. We're collecting McGroarty, Pickering, Brunicke, Howe, Hallander, Glass, Tomasino, etc so that when we get our hopeful franchise talent circa 28/29, you have a roster of decent mid-20's players to put around them.

Now that said, I don't think anything Dubas is able to collect in the next 2-3 years is to hold off plummeting to the bottom of the league. Look at the Sharks. Still had Couture, Hertl, Meier and it didn't stop them from bottoming out. It's coming. Dubas moves or not, it's coming.

 

[Empoleon8771]

What's most frustrating for me is not the player, it's the accountability aspect.

Cody Glass is good on the draw and kills penalties, so he gets far more rope than, say, Puljujarvi, who does neither of those things, yet was more effective in most other aspects of the game. It's some kind of weird cronyism/favoritism because Sully PK'd and took draws when he played, so naturally, he thinks those are the most important parts of the game, when in reality, had the team practiced 3-on-3 and the SO more in the last few years, they probably would have eeked into the playoffs.

That's how every NHL coach operates. If someone like Puljujarvi, who doesn't offer any sort of unique role/skillset, they need to score goals. Putting up 3 goals and 9 points in 25 games isn't enough production for the role Puljujarvi is playing in.

It's no different than Heinen for the Penguins a few years ago. In his first year with the Penguins, he put up 18 goals and 33 points in 76 games as the main producer in the bottom-6. The next year, he fell to 8 goals and 22 points in 65 games and regularly found himself getting HS'd because of it. If you are only offering offense and you're also only scoring at a 10 goal pace, you're not going to stay in the lineup. These comments were the same comments made at Puustinen by Sullivan noting that he needs to score more goals.

Glass gets more rope because he offers that faceoff and PKing ability, so his value isn't solely driven by his production. Puljujarvi doesn't offer that so he needs to score. And while assists aren't nothing, putting up only 3 goals, 2 primary assists and 4 secondary assists in 25 games isn't going to be enough production to stay in the lineup.

 

[SEALBound]

That's how every NHL coach operates. If someone like Puljujarvi, who doesn't offer any sort of unique role/skillset, they need to score goals. Putting up 3 goals and 9 points in 25 games isn't enough production for the role Puljujarvi is playing in.

It's no different than Heinen for the Penguins a few years ago. In his first year with the Penguins, he put up 18 goals and 33 points in 76 games as the main producer in the bottom-6. The next year, he fell to 8 goals and 22 points in 65 games and regularly found himself getting HS'd because of it. If you are only offering offense and you're also only scoring at a 10 goal pace, you're not going to stay in the lineup. These comments were the same comments made at Puustinen by Sullivan noting that he needs to score more goals.

Glass gets more rope because he offers that faceoff and PKing ability, so his value isn't solely driven by his production. Puljujarvi doesn't offer that so he needs to score. And while assists aren't nothing, putting up only 3 goals, 2 primary assists and 4 secondary assists in 25 games isn't going to be enough production to stay in the lineup.

This has been discussed several times and hopefully it begins to sink in with people.

There was an article a couple weeks ago right after Puljujarvi was waived that broke down the Penguins roster and why Sullivan was building the lineup the way he was. It was a good analysis and breakdown and it was posted here.

Do you recall where that article came from?

 

[Ulf5]

I was very excited when they brought him onboard for him to only make Hextall like moves. The Graves signing was an immediate strike against that I started wondering if he isn’t the guy I thought he was.

I also hate his personality. When he started the whole “smartest guy in the room” crap was when I really turned on him.

Battle Royal 2024-'25 Steel Cage Match.
Kyle: mike, I want you to play player x in the top 6 so we can boost his value and because i said so. And as my glasses can attest, I'm the smartest guy in this room.
Mike: kyle, I'm not putting player x in the top 6 his play away from the puck is atrocious. And as my glasses can attest I'm the smartest guy in the room. Mine's bigger! Glasses that is.
Kyle: are not!
Mike: am too.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This has been discussed several times and hopefully it begins to sink in with people.

There was an article a couple weeks ago right after Puljujarvi was waived that broke down the Penguins roster and why Sullivan was building the lineup the way he was. It was a good analysis and breakdown and it was posted here.

Do you recall where that article came from?

Jesse Puljujarvi

The curse of being good, but not great - and not specialized

anglesandcaroms.substack.com

It was here. The notable comment:

The dynamic we’ve just considered isn’t unique to Pittsburgh. Most NHL teams have a roster process that looks something like this. So many jobs carry specialized prerequisites: the ability to play centre, or competence in the faceoff circle, or a history of penalty-killing. Higgins had a long career in large part because he could do all of those jobs. He didn’t have a standout physical skill that set him apart from other players, but he had versatility.

Puljujarvi doesn’t. I saw some chuckling on social media that Puljujarvi hadn’t figured things out yet, despite getting so many chances in the majors, but I think that’s wrong. He absolutely has figured out how to be an effective piece of a team’s bottom-six at five-on-five.

The problem is that it doesn’t matter. No matter which team he’s on, he’s applying for a tiny subsection of the available NHL work, and competition for those jobs is fierce. So fierce that the entire league just passed on a perfectly useful NHL player.

He's basically competing with just Tomasino and Beauvillier for a spot, and both of those guys have scored more than him.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

JFresh outlined the Pens plan in a couple of tweets the other day. I agree with his take, with one difference:





Where I disagree is that I think Dubas is going to try and skip over the worst of the rebuild by going big in free agency, perhaps over the course of two years.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Where I disagree is that I think Dubas is going to try and skip over the worst of the rebuild by going big in free agency, perhaps over the course of two years.

And his track record there is impeccable.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Not related to the point but Kingerski is such a sniveling little bootlicking weenus.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

That's how every NHL coach operates. If someone like Puljujarvi, who doesn't offer any sort of unique role/skillset, they need to score goals. Putting up 3 goals and 9 points in 25 games isn't enough production for the role Puljujarvi is playing in.

It's no different than Heinen for the Penguins a few years ago. In his first year with the Penguins, he put up 18 goals and 33 points in 76 games as the main producer in the bottom-6. The next year, he fell to 8 goals and 22 points in 65 games and regularly found himself getting HS'd because of it. If you are only offering offense and you're also only scoring at a 10 goal pace, you're not going to stay in the lineup. These comments were the same comments made at Puustinen by Sullivan noting that he needs to score more goals.

Glass gets more rope because he offers that faceoff and PKing ability, so his value isn't solely driven by his production. Puljujarvi doesn't offer that so he needs to score. And while assists aren't nothing, putting up only 3 goals, 2 primary assists and 4 secondary assists in 25 games isn't going to be enough production to stay in the lineup.

Just because it's pervasive doesn't mean it's correct. There are players in the system who could potentially be more productive than Glass, but he gets preferential treatment. And it's not just Glass. It's Nieto, O'Connor, Acciari, Beau... there are many players who should have played themselves out of the lineup by now, and I think more coaches than not would have made more extensive changes already.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just because it's pervasive doesn't mean it's correct. There are players in the system who could potentially be more productive than Glass, but he gets preferential treatment. And it's not just Glass. It's Nieto, O'Connor, Acciari, Beau... there are many players who should have played themselves out of the lineup by now, and I think more coaches than not would have made more extensive changes already.

Based on the fact that Puljujarvi cleared waivers, I'm inclined to disagree with this.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not related to the point but Kingerski is such a sniveling little bootlicking weenus.

You mean @dkingerski

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

lol I would bet almost all these dudes would clear waivers. I don't think that's necessarily the gotcha some of you think it is. The team has done a terrific job draining what little value nearly every single one of these guys might have had. Maybe not Beau? 1.25M is probably palatable enough for some teams for a 3rd/4th line guy that can pot around 15 and play a decent all around game.

You mean @dkingerski

He must be a masochist on top of everything else.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Based on the fact that Puljujarvi cleared waivers, I'm inclined to disagree with this.

I'm not just talking about Pulju. There are multiple young players in WBS who should have been given looks over Glass, Nieto, O'Connor, et. al. by now. They should have played themselves off the team at this point.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not just talking about Pulju. There are multiple young players in WBS who should have been given looks over Glass, Nieto, O'Connor, et. al. by now. They should have played themselves off the team at this point.

And again, that's not how any team actually runs a roster. Especially for teams in the Penguins shoes, teams don't throw away potential trade chips for young guys just so the young guys can play 20 games earlier.

I'll give you Nieto and Hayes, but no chance with the other guys. The only way that teams replace guys like O'Connor or Glass with young guys is either if they have a better young guy who fills the same role or they're trading the veterans for futures.

Like I posted on the last page, their bottom-6 right now should be:

O'Connor-Glass-Beauvillier
Lizotte-Ponomarev-Acciari

With planning on trading Glass, O'Connor and Beauvillier for the best offer they can get ASAP. As soon as those guys get moved, call up guys like McGroarty, Koivunen, Broz and Poulin.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If this team's dumb enough to try and cut corners to shorten the rebuild, they're just gonna end up adding half a decade to it. Chasing big name FAs and having to notably outbid them because your team's located in Pittsburgh is a disaster waiting to happen. Other teams' best players don't make it to FA.

The building blocks come from the draft, and big additions to put the finishing touches on a roster and put a team over the top come from trades. That's how successful teams are built. This organization's gonna learn that the hard way if they go out and chase Marner for max cap hit or some dumb bullshit. /shrug

 

[Darren McCord]

I blame FSG more than Hextall or Dubas for signing Sullivan to a premature extension when he was already way past his best by date.

Nah Hextall blew it not firing him before the team was sold.

Hextalls first year was when they blew Islanders. He had all the power to fire Sullivan and didn’t.

 

[eXile3]

This board is awful now. Am I the only who can’t scroll anymore w/o the page refreshing to the bottom?

We will be doing that whether we want to or not the year after Sid retires. This team is going to fall off a cliff when he's gone. No one is saving it after that.

The difference is "well we might have to wait an extra two years vs starting today".

Two years is a long time. We’re not making the playoffs in the next two years so why not just start now?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This board is awful now. Am I the only who can’t scroll anymore w/o the page refreshing to the bottom?

Honestly, no. No issues so far beyond some aesthetic qualms.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

And his track record there is impeccable.

Hah. Well, I think it'd be for specific players like Marner, Chychrun, maybe Rantanen if he makes it to free agency, etc., and if they aren't available then it wouldn't happen.

He's not going to go out and say, "I have $20 million in cap space and I'm going to use it no matter what."

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Hah. Well, I think it'd be for specific players like Marner, Chychrun, maybe Rantanen if he makes it to free agency, etc., and if they aren't available then it wouldn't happen.

He's not going to go out and say, "I have $20 million in cap space and I'm going to use it no matter what."

I mean he will if there are some awful players on toxic contracts he can get some shitberg picks for.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

And again, that's not how any team actually runs a roster. Especially for teams in the Penguins shoes, teams don't throw away potential trade chips for young guys just so the young guys can play 20 games earlier.

I'll give you Nieto and Hayes, but no chance with the other guys. The only way that teams replace guys like O'Connor or Glass with young guys is either if they have a better young guy who fills the same role or they're trading the veterans for futures.

You're overvaluing Glass. He's almost 26, has had one semi-productive season, has one goal in 33 games this season, and has had two other franchises give up on him. I don't see how the possibility of getting a 5th for him instead of a 4th is any kind of a big risk.

 

[SEALBound]

JFresh outlined the Pens plan in a couple of tweets the other day. I agree with his take, with one difference:





Where I disagree is that I think Dubas is going to try and skip over the worst of the rebuild by going big in free agency, perhaps over the course of two years.

Exactly what I've been saying.

This board is awful now. Am I the only who can’t scroll anymore w/o the page refreshing to the bottom?


Two years is a long time. We’re not making the playoffs in the next two years so why not just start now?

Not hard.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I mean he will if there are some awful players on toxic contracts he can get some shitberg picks for.

I think that will be strategic, too, though. Like he'll take a lousy expiring contract back in a trade, or a Hayes type deal for a defenseman that they could easily bury, if they can get better value and good assets.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think that will be strategic, too, though. Like he'll take a lousy expiring contract back in a trade, or a Hayes type deal for a defenseman that they could easily bury, if they can get better value and good assets.

Well hopefully next time the players in question are actually useful in some capacity.

Also you guys have been way too confident in the past about who can "easily be moved or buried" as we're seeing this season.