Prospect Info: '24-'25 Prospects Thread: Generation Z

[Empoleon8771]

Wheeler just dropped his top-100 drafted prospect list. McGroarty at 44 and Brunicke at 63, no other Penguins ranked. That’s about what I expected based on his earlier reviews of the system.

 

[Andy99]

Wheeler just dropped his top-100 drafted prospect list. McGroarty at 44 and Brunicke at 63, no other Penguins ranked. That’s about what I expected based on his earlier reviews of the system.

Washington has 7 on the list, which has players from 2020 to 2024, which is the most…tells you all you need to know about how much better that organization has been than the Pens recently … sad really

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

would love for someone to rank drafted prospects by league (with a diff scout heading up each league).

And then only compare do the top 5 - top 10 in the world or something.

Feels pointless for one person to rank KHLers vs OHLers vs AHLers and so on over 100 or slots if you don’t need to do it for a draft. And they’re all differing ages.

 

[SEALBound]

Washington has 7 on the list, which has players from 2020 to 2024, which is the most…tells you all you need to know about how much better that organization has been than the Pens recently … sad really

What has Washington won in since 2020? By my count, about as much as us.

Carolina by all counts has been a well run team but they haven't won shit either.

 

[Andy99]

What has Washington won in since 2020? By my count, about as much as us.

Carolina by all counts has been a well run team but they haven't won shit either.

Only one team wins it and they at least have a chance this season…regardless, they are a much better run organization unfortunately

 

[SEALBound]

Only one team wins it and they at least have a chance this season…regardless, they are a much better run organization unfortunately

I mean, sure I'll admit that I like their roster at the moment better, but let's not pretend we took the same paths to get to where we are. Pens vs Caps 2020 to now were different. Different teams have different arcs and trajectories. And sometimes it's damn near the luck of the draw on what works and what doesn't.

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean, sure I'll admit that I like their roster at the moment better, but let's not pretend we took the same paths to get to where we are. Pens vs Caps 2020 to now were different. Different teams have different arcs and trajectories. And sometimes it's damn near the luck of the draw on what works and what doesn't.

Yeah, the Capitals ran their franchise efficiently with a goal on winning and sustained success and we have morons for managers who worship at the altar of Sully.

 

[OnMyOwn]

I mean the caps did some really questionable things for a lot of OV’s tenure and couldn’t get over the hump until like 13 years into his career. Very recently things have been better for them and they hit on some trades, but I’d still take what we’ve accomplished compared to them, over what the situations are as they stand today.

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean the caps did some really questionable things for a lot of OV’s tenure and couldn’t get over the hump until like 13 years into his career. Very recently things have been better for them and they hit on some trades, but I’d still take what we’ve accomplished compared to them, over what the situations are as they stand today.

Nobody is saying that the Caps core had a better run.

But we are going to be celebrating the 10th anniversary of the 15-16 cup next year.

At some point you gotta focus on the future versus the past.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Nobody's suggesting having better ranked prospects or being the top team in the NHL in February are better situations than seeing the Sid/Geno core win three Cups.

The point is that this team decided they were simply too smart to continue evolving and trying to better themselves, so they rolled over and died after the Caps beat them in 2018 and has been rotting ever since.

The end of the era was always gonna happen and all that, but the ugliness that we're seeing (and will continue to see) is all self-inflicted and driven by a weird combination of stupidity, cowardice, and arrogance rampant throughout the organization for near on a decade now. It sucks.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah, the Capitals ran their franchise efficiently with a goal on winning and sustained success and we have morons for managers who worship at the altar of Sully.

They were able to retool better than us from say, 2020. I am happy for them and their fans, more so because it means Ovi WILL break the record which I am excited to see. But I don't get down on the Pens team because the Caps are doing well. This organization placed a premium on the Sid-Geno-Letang relationship. To an extent, that relationship took precedence over on-ice results. For better or for (as we are seeing) worse.

Their ability to retool a bit reminds me a bit of 2016 when we had Dupuis retire due to health and Porter breaks his leg and Malkin gets injured. Those three things allowed younger players to come in and fill the gap and it allowed the formation of HBK.

The Capitals "lucked" out a bit because their star players were not "at the same level" of Sid and Geno, sans Ovechkin, who they have clearly decided to continue to build around. They had Kuznetsov who had performance, attitude, and potential drug issues and they were able to ship him off, luckily, to Carolina. Oshie aged out and instead of being on the roster taking up space, he's on LTIRetire. Backstrom had by all means, an albatross of a deal relative to performance but again, they luck out by having him on LTIRetire. That is a TON of cap space to be able to reallocate. They were also able to recognize that they weren't gonna be contenders so they were able to ship off a top pairing dman in Orlov. Not unlike us with Pettersson. A decent comparison would have been us with Dumo. If we trade him out for a first before the wheels fell off and use the picks on a guy like Nils Lundqvist or Sandin, things might be different.

Then they hit on McMichael and Protas. Wish we'd have hit on Poulin, Lauzon, Bjorkqvist, Hallander...I mean, these are the guys we would be needing on the roster right now making an impact so that we didn't have to go get dorks like Acciari but...thems the breaks sometimes.

Washington also had several successful hits. Dylan Strome was a cast away they took a chance on and it worked out well. I wanted us to sign him but if IIRC, that was met with harsh criticism here. Jokes on us. PLD isn't the pile he was in LA and they got aggressive and got Chychrun. Now, if memory serves me correctly, Sullivan wanted Chychrun to boost the back end but the GM at the time thought Granlund was the answer instead. Ooops, amiright?

 

[Gurglesons]

They were able to retool better than us from say, 2020. I am happy for them and their fans, more so because it means Ovi WILL break the record which I am excited to see. But I don't get down on the Pens team because the Caps are doing well. This organization placed a premium on the Sid-Geno-Letang relationship. To an extent, that relationship took precedence over on-ice results. For better or for (as we are seeing) worse.

Their ability to retool a bit reminds me a bit of 2016 when we had Dupuis retire due to health and Porter breaks his leg and Malkin gets injured. Those three things allowed younger players to come in and fill the gap and it allowed the formation of HBK.

The Capitals "lucked" out a bit because their star players were not "at the same level" of Sid and Geno, sans Ovechkin, who they have clearly decided to continue to build around. They had Kuznetsov who had performance, attitude, and potential drug issues and they were able to ship him off, luckily, to Carolina. Oshie aged out and instead of being on the roster taking up space, he's on LTIRetire. Backstrom had by all means, an albatross of a deal relative to performance but again, they luck out by having him on LTIRetire. That is a TON of cap space to be able to reallocate. They were also able to recognize that they weren't gonna be contenders so they were able to ship off a top pairing dman in Orlov. Not unlike us with Pettersson. A decent comparison would have been us with Dumo. If we trade him out for a first before the wheels fell off and use the picks on a guy like Nils Lundqvist or Sandin, things might be different.

Then they hit on McMichael and Protas. Wish we'd have hit on Poulin, Lauzon, Bjorkqvist, Hallander...I mean, these are the guys we would be needing on the roster right now making an impact so that we didn't have to go get dorks like Acciari but...thems the breaks sometimes.

Washington also had several successful hits. Dylan Strome was a cast away they took a chance on and it worked out well. I wanted us to sign him but if IIRC, that was met with harsh criticism here. Jokes on us. PLD isn't the pile he was in LA and they got aggressive and got Chychrun. Now, if memory serves me correctly, Sullivan wanted Chychrun to boost the back end but the GM at the time thought Granlund was the answer instead. Ooops, amiright?

All of this is a long way of saying exactly what I did.

The Caps have managed their team better while we are doing stupid things.

The issue isn't Sid, Geno, Letang. The issue is loyalty to Sullivan and not making smart decisions.

Under Rutherford, Hextall, and Dubas we've been bad at one of drafting, evaluation, and asset management or all three.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I genuinely cannot give a crap less about how Washington's prospect pool is doing relative to the Penguins prospect pool. I want the Penguins to do the rebuild correctly.

 

[eXile3]

Wheeler just dropped his top-100 drafted prospect list. McGroarty at 44 and Brunicke at 63, no other Penguins ranked. That’s about what I expected based on his earlier reviews of the system.

I would have to see the list but first look that seems fair?

 

[Freeptop]

Pietila looks solid as well. But really it’s a bunch of ok depth. Not comfortable projecting any of those guys as high end types, which they will need. Can say the same at F.

our pool is flush with dudes that look like they have a chance to get ELCs and then maybe end up as complimentary NHLers but would not say we are strong at any one spot where I’m “very comfortable with the future”

We need like 4-5 horses to build around. Current crop of prospects is going to be who you put around the horses (if we are lucky enough to get a few legit NHLers from it).

Here's how I look at it: from 1998-2002, the Pens were not good, but they also weren't bad enough to be picking starpower out of the draft. Back then, the Pens got players like Scuderi, Malone, Orpik, Armstrong, Whitney, Christensen and Talbot from those years. No stars, but lots of complementary pieces, with a few of them being able to be moved for key pieces once the Pens were ready to make a run.

The timing of development also means that when you're drafting in the middle of the rounds is when you want to be grabbing those complementary pieces - these sorts take longer to reach the NHL, vs the high draft picks who are going to hit the NHL right away. Having them all come in on ELCs at the same time gives quite a bit of flexibility when the time comes, especially since that leaves room to bring in more expensive players in trades or free agency, when the time comes.

Granted, this assumes that a lot of things go right for the Pens. Lots of ways for things to go sideways (and, no, we don't need the obligatory Sullivan picture in response here; we're all aware of that option for things going sideways, it would just be beating a dead horse at this point).

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah the Penguins are still firmly in the position of building up the foundation of their prospect pool. I've said this a bunch, but you absolutely do not want to be a "Bedard in Chicago" type of situation where you stripped everything down to bottom out but then have nothing to support the elite star(s) you got. Putting too much on a young player's plate too quickly is how you ruin the development of young players. I'm surprised the Penguins didn't do that themselves with Fleury, they sure as hell tried to early in his career

The only future core guys the Penguins have in their system right now are McGroarty and Brunicke, and both of those guys project to be more like supporting core players IMO. Or how I'd differentiate between the different "core" levels:

-Franchise core players: Crosby and Malkin
-Core player: Letang and Guentzel
-Supporting core player: Staal and Neal

Those two project to end up in the Staal and Neal tier.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You definitely don't want your franchise building block prospects to be on an island, but we're years away from worrying about that imo. And the team's got a solid handful of guys who look like they could be depth NHL players in McG, Broz, Koivunen, Brunicke, and Pickering. Guys young enough to be around for a long time and hopefully be established full time NHL players by the time this team ends up getting the 1st overall types.

The goal for the next handful of years should be to try and secure those franchise pillars you have to build around. That means being really bad, and that also means trading your Rusts, your Buntings, your Rakells, your EKs. Those guys are already too old to be anything but detrimental several years down the road when, best case scenario, this team starts landing those stud prospects and needs to begin building around them to compete--ideally while they're still on ELCs for cap flexibility.

Worrying about having vets around to mentor and support the next crop of top tier prospects when the Pens are at this stage of things is putting the cart before the horse imo. This team hasn't even accepted that the era's over when it's been abundantly clear that's been the case for years. Well, with Jake forcing his way outta town and Petts being dealt, while recouping/retaining picks since the EK mistake, I think we're probably seeing a shift in approach and philosophy for the first time in decades around here. And that's good. But they can't half ass it, they need to really commit imo, and like I've said before, that includes a total reimagining of how to approach development and coaching.

 

[cygnus47]

Yeah I think we're on about the right trajectory at the moment. High pick this year, trade off remaining good players this off-season, bottom out next 2-3 years while slowly bring up young complementary guys with Sid around. If we can get a future #1C and #1D in the next 3 drafts and dump Sully before he's ruined the rookies too much we'll have the main horses to build around. Sid might even hang around to have a chance at playing a season with our next #1 pick.

By ~2028 we should have one or two potential superstar teenagers (hopefully at least one of McKenna and DuPont + a bluechipper), some solid mid 20's goalies and a couple other young top 6/top 4 guys. Then it's just a matter of a few choice trades for useful veterans that can teach the rooks the rope and bing bang boom Stanley Cup easy peasy.

 

[JTG]

Washington has 7 on the list, which has players from 2020 to 2024, which is the most…tells you all you need to know about how much better that organization has been than the Pens recently … sad really

Shero started the mortgage of the future to make the team as good as it could have been when the guys were in their early 20's. It worked out, I suppose. But they would have been so much better having a long eye and saying, this core together may not win, but we will keep developing and trading talent until we get there.

I think if we as a fanbase have learned anything, and many of us have been talking about this team together for this entire generation, they needed to pick their spots better. What deals netted us the most return? I'd argue the tweaks and not the massive blockbusters.

I genuinely cannot give a crap less about how Washington's prospect pool is doing relative to the Penguins prospect pool. I want the Penguins to do the rebuild correctly.

Agreed. I think right now they are holding it together for nothing. They are better off stripping it all around Sid, and just getting good free agents that want to play with him and letting guys develop. No reason to rush it now.

Yeah I think we're on about the right trajectory at the moment. High pick this year, trade off remaining good players this off-season, bottom out next 2-3 years while slowly bring up young complementary guys with Sid around. If we can get a future #1C and #1D in the next 3 drafts and dump Sully before he's ruined the rookies too much we'll have the main horses to build around. Sid might even hang around to have a chance at playing a season with our next #1 pick.

By ~2028 we should have one or two potential superstar teenagers (hopefully at least one of McKenna and DuPont + a bluechipper), some solid mid 20's goalies and a couple other young top 6/top 4 guys. Then it's just a matter of a few choice trades for useful veterans that can teach the rooks the rope and bing bang boom Stanley Cup easy peasy.

I think if Sid is sticking for a rebuild, he's keeping Sully here with him.

 

[Freeptop]

What deals netted us the most return? I'd argue the tweaks and not the massive blockbusters.

I'd argue that without the Hossa and Kessel blockbusters, the Pens do not win the three Cups of the Crosby era.
Kessel should be self-evident, but with Hossa, I don't think they make the Cup Final in 2008, and without that experience, there's no way they beat the Red Wings in 2009.

I don't think there is any hard rule about the types of trades that should have been made. Just maybe a bit more consideration about the players being acquired, how they would fit, and what the team actually needed.

Plus, a bit less attachment to coaches who they'd won the Cup with several years prior...

 

[Darren McCord]

Shero started the mortgage of the future to make the team as good as it could have been when the guys were in their early 20's. It worked out, I suppose. But they would have been so much better having a long eye and saying, this core together may not win, but we will keep developing and trading talent until we get there.

But would they have ever gotten there? The Hossa trade barely lost them anything but help the make it to the finals. Trading Whitney netted them Kunitz which was huge for all 3 cups.

Look at the oilers. They waited to long to start moving their picks and McDavid may never get his cup with them. Waiting around could have ended up a lot worse and they might have never gotten there.

I'd argue that without the Hossa and Kessel blockbusters, the Pens do not win the three Cups of the Crosby era.
Kessel should be self-evident, but with Hossa, I don't think they make the Cup Final in 2008, and without that experience, there's no way they beat the Red Wings in 2009.

I don't think there is any hard rule about the types of trades that should have been made. Just maybe a bit more consideration about the players being acquired, how they would fit, and what the team actually needed.

Plus, a bit less attachment to coaches who they'd won the Cup with several years prior...

Whitney for Kunitz was a big deal and not a tweak either. Whitney was 25 at that time and already had a 60 pt season.

 

[Freeptop]

Whitney for Kunitz was a big deal and not a tweak either. Whitney was 25 at that time and already had a 60 pt season.

I was thinking of a "blockbuster" as the kind that gets the big splash headlines across the hockey media, so, really, just the biggest ones.

That said, I agree that was a big deal of a trade, and also pretty critical to the Pens winning in '09 (and, arguably, fairly important to '16 and '17 as well).

 

[JTG]

But would they have ever gotten there? The Hossa trade barely lost them anything but help the make it to the finals. Trading Whitney netted them Kunitz which was huge for all 3 cups.

Look at the oilers. They waited to long to start moving their picks and McDavid may never get his cup with them. Waiting around could have ended up a lot worse and they might have never gotten there.



Whitney for Kunitz was a big deal and not a tweak either. Whitney was 25 at that time and already had a 60 pt season.

I'm talking pure rental, I should have clarified. I'm all for player swaps with guys who are under contract - Goligoski for Neal, Hornqvist for Neal...all day. The Hossa deal was completed because it was tremendous. Angelo Esposito was the big part of that really. Christenson and Armstrong were bottom 6 guys. They were hoping Hossa would sign. You have to chase that fish.

The next big one was Ponikarovsky for Caputi and someone else. Brendan Morrow for Joe Morrow and a 3rd. Douglas Murray for TWO 2nds. Iginla for a 1st. This one deadline f***ed Shero all up. Morrow was a decent enough defenseman who has had an NHL career, then traded away a 1st, two 2nds, and a 3rd along with 3 prospects who never amounted to much.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Man it's fun to imagine what those years would've been like if Hossa stuck around with Sid through their primes. Got a whole lotta Chuck Kobasew, Chris Bourque, Cal O'Reilly, Taylor Pyatt, Steve Sullivan, Alex Ponikarovsky.

If Sid's healthy and Hossa sticks around, this team probably has another couple of SCF appearances under their belt between that 1st Cup of the era and the B2Bs. Hossa was tailor made for Sid's game, man.

 

[PensFutures]

Brendan Morrow for Joe Morrow and a 3rd.

Kind of funny, this trade helped us more in 2017 than it did in 2013 because the 3rd that came with Brendan Morrow ended up being Jake.