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VVD is no worse than the 2nd best PL CB of all time, and he should also have a BDO on his resume. He's the standard bearer; all the young CBs are "the next VVD". He's the best CB today and the best CB of this era
 
How do we define era? It's a slippery term. But I will note that the current crop of top CBs (and this has been the case for 5-6 years now, IMO, so it's relevant in terms of thinking of Van Dijk "in his era") is the weakest it's been in a long while - an opinion of mine which I do not think is nostalgia-driven. The push towards the all-action dominant #6 has pulled top prospects away from playing CB and towards playing CDM, such that many guys who would've been in the mixer for "best CB in the world" ten years ago were instead developed into midfielders. All you have to do is look at FIFPRO World XIs from the last few years to see the drop in top defensive quality.

It helps him that he's maintained a very high level into his mid-30s, as the fact that he was a very late bloomer as a top player would otherwise be problematic (he shares this with Thiago Silva, although even Silva broke out about three years younger than VVD). But his late blooming makes it hard to assess him with regards to era. He's a 1991, which puts him in a weird spot between the really good mid-to-late 1980s CBs (spanning roughly from Thiago Silva to Hummels and Boateng, encompassing also Ramos, Pique, Godin, Chiellini, etc.) to the really good mid-1990s CBs (Varane and Marquinhos being the standard-bearers here). Who is his era? By the time Van Dijk broke out, Varane had been a top CB for 5 years despite being 2 years younger, but has now retired while Van Dijk is still at a top level. Van Dijk's late development curve means that he straddles "eras" pretty awkwardly.

With regards to his all-time PL status, he's in the mixer for #2 no doubt (Terry is fully, unambiguously, no shred of debate #1).

And with regards to BDO, all that need be said is that Modric and Rodri have two while Xavi and Iniesta have none, and that the only Italian centreback with one was at absolute best the third best centreback of his country's generation.
 
Wee Baby Seamus said:
How do we define era? It's a slippery term. But I will note that the current crop of top CBs (and this has been the case for 5-6 years now, IMO, so it's relevant in terms of thinking of Van Dijk "in his era") is the weakest it's been in a long while - an opinion of mine which I do not think is nostalgia-driven. The push towards the all-action dominant #6 has pulled top prospects away from playing CB and towards playing CDM, such that many guys who would've been in the mixer for "best CB in the world" ten years ago were instead developed into midfielders. All you have to do is look at FIFPRO World XIs from the last few years to see the drop in top defensive quality.
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I do not buy this argument at all. I think its just as fair to say "more midfielders that would be playing 6, are now playing CB, because teams wants ball playing CBs. Hell Barca was winning UCLs chucking guys like Yaya Toure and Mascherano at CB
Wee Baby Seamus said:
It helps him that he's maintained a very high level into his mid-30s, as the fact that he was a very late bloomer as a top player would otherwise be problematic (he shares this with Thiago Silva, although even Silva broke out about three years younger than VVD). But his late blooming makes it hard to assess him with regards to era. He's a 1991, which puts him in a weird spot between the really good mid-to-late 1980s CBs (spanning roughly from Thiago Silva to Hummels and Boateng, encompassing also Ramos, Pique, Godin, Chiellini, etc.) to the really good mid-1990s CBs (Varane and Marquinhos being the standard-bearers here). Who is his era? By the time Van Dijk broke out, Varane had been a top CB for 5 years despite being 2 years younger, but has now retired while Van Dijk is still at a top level. Van Dijk's late development curve means that he straddles "eras" pretty awkwardly.
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I mean yes and no. I would say this era probably started when Pep took the Man City job. Another interesting interesting part of this era is how many teams changed to a back 5, meaning a lot of CBs were getting protected. VVD only played back for the Netherlands (which he was outspoken about hating), so he's primarily playing in a back 4 for a team. I think that counts for something a well
Wee Baby Seamus said:
With regards to his all-time PL status, he's in the mixer for #2 no doubt (Terry is fully, unambiguously, no shred of debate #1).

And with regards to BDO, all that need be said is that Modric and Rodri have two while Xavi and Iniesta have none, and that the only Italian centreback with one was at absolute best the third best centreback of his country's generation.
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Awards, and their context certainly matter. Frankly it says a ton about VVD that he was able to get 2nd at all in a Messi season, because the voters go Messi by default. And while its never a robbery when Messi wins a BDO; that was absolutely a BDO quality season from VVD; so there isn't any need to try and minimalize it. Xavi and Iniesta don't have BDO for the same reason that VVD doesn't
 
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Savant said:
I do not buy this argument at all. I think its just as fair to say "more midfielders that would be playing 6, are now playing CB, because teams wants ball playing CBs

Awards, and their context certainly matter. Frankly it says a ton about VVD that he was able to get 2nd at all in a Messi season, because the voters go Messi by default. And while its never a robbery when Messi wins a BDO; that was absolutely a BDO quality season from VVD; so there isn't any need to try and minimalize it. Xavi and Iniesta don't have BDO for the same reason that VVD doesn't
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Compare the CB duos at top teams now versus the CB duos at those same teams a decade ago, and you'll see a very marked drop off. And it's not because I'm nostalgic about the ones from a decade ago.

My point is that the resume aspect of it means extremely little to me given that other CBs have had better seasons (or been consistently at that same peak level for long periods of time), but their timing was less convenient. An awards finish in a vacuum is a very contextual fact - I don't think it's accurate to say that the two best defensive seasons of the 21st century at Cannavaro and Van Dijk. Just as there's no need to try and minimalize it, there's no need to try and maximize it by pointing to the podium position.
 
Wee Baby Seamus said:
Compare the CB duos at top teams now versus the CB duos at those same teams a decade ago, and you'll see a very marked drop off. And it's not because I'm nostalgic about the ones from a decade ago.
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Again, I don't really agree with this. I think the talent was just less evenly distributed. Like you have Ferdinand and Vidic playing with each other and that was definitive of their era; But they had each other. If anything this is an argument FOR Virgil, who has elevated guys like Joel Matip/Joe Gomez/now Konate to a much higher level. Konate is the only one that has that kind of a ceiling. Guys like Matip and Gomez would not even be in the same breath as guys like Ricardo Carvalho.
Wee Baby Seamus said:
My point is that the resume aspect of it means extremely little to me given that other CBs have had better seasons (or been consistently at that same peak level for long periods of time), but their timing was less convenient. An awards finish in a vacuum is a very contextual fact - I don't think it's accurate to say that the two best defensive seasons of the 21st century at Cannavaro and Van Dijk. Just as there's no need to try and minimalize it, there's no need to try and maximize it by pointing to the podium position.
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The Cannavaro one is tough because Cannavaro obviously won that on the back of that Italy World Cup in 2006. I think there is certainly a valid argument that Virgil's 2018-19 is the best modern CB season.
 
Vasilevskiy said:
absolutely.
Sergio Ramos (I know I'm gonna get quoted for saying this) should be up there as well if it's 10.
Can't come up with many other names, maybe Thiago Silva or Chiellini, both below VVD in my books
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I mean this is the thing. Everyone else people need to "think" about. VVD is there, in ink, on every list no thought required. Most of the other options are a reach. Ramos had a great stretch, but again, are we sure he was even the best CB on his own team during that period? VVD you never had to ask that question, he elevated other guys, and he had to elevate those guys because didn't nearly have the help back there that others did.
 
Wee Baby Seamus said:
Sol.

Arguments for Kompany and Vidic are fairly weak to me (Kompany peaked decently lower, Vidic peaked close to as high but his top level time was short). Ferdinand and Adams are really the only two in the mix alongside VVD for #2, imo.
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Yeah, the Kompany argument is basically that he brought solidity to the City back line, won a bunch of trophies as the captain, and had the lowest GA four times (compared to VVD's 2). I don't think Vidic's top level time was that short tbh, and he definitely did it at the national team level, too.
 
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