2025 NHL DRAFT Thread
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Toews2Bickell
It's Showtime
- Nov 24, 2013
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Elias Pettersson with the thought that they would be hoping to draft that type of offensive player anyway and he has shown the 100 point upside
- Aug 24, 2011
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Right there with you on this. Not with anything you've said specifically but generally on HF I feel like I've always got to add "IMO"/"IMHO" to posts. Everything is opinion. We're hockey dorks on a message board, there's nothing definitive about what we're saying and it only matters to people we're talking to.
PCAisBest
Kick Streamer
- Apr 29, 2015
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Toews2Bickell
It's Showtime
- Nov 24, 2013
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Nothing. Hawks don't need to trade this pick. Pick 3 straight up or walk away. And as others have said Elias might not be a guy you make that type of move for anyway...I would make the pick and hope to win the McKenna lotto next year...Just saying that is the type of trade they would probably seek for pick 3
Kevin Musto
Hard for Bedard
- Feb 16, 2018
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60-65 points on a consistent basis... I have a difficult time projecting that.
I could see it if you give him 1st line minutes... but if that's all he's doing with 1st line minutes then he's not someone you want on your 1st line.
Like if you look at a player like Phillip Danault, he has never once touched 60 points. And I'm already lukewarm on Desnoyers's playmaking. These types of players tend to be in the 40 or 50 range.
I also think when it comes to the defensive side, expectations need to be managed. That aspect of the game is difficult to project to the NHL. And Desnoyers's two way game isn't anywhere near as strong as Beniers or Celebrini in their draft years, just as an example. So when I see names like Bergeron or Toews thrown around (not that you did, but I've seen it from others), I'm like hold your horses.
I've also yet to see anything about Desnoyers going to the NCAA, and you simply can't take this guy 3rd overall and have him playing in the Q for the next 2 years.
Toews2Bickell
It's Showtime
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I'm just wondering if you pencil in Nazar and Desnoyers as your 1C/2C and kick Bedard to wing with Nazar as his C and hope that he becomes a 100 point player and then you look for that type of player to pair with Desnoyers. Maybe Nazar and Desnoyers are only 60-70 point centers, maybe more upside for Nazar, but if you have two really good two way centers that allow Bedard and another player to really do their thing offensively it could work out well. But this same type of lineup construction works with Hagens or Frondell potentially, its just that nobody seems to talk about their 2 way games in the same way as Desnoyers.
I would be pretty surprised if he isn't playing in the NCAA next year.
Also I have to push back on the Danault comparisons. Danault as a draft eligible was barely a point per game and he didn't come close to Desnoyers' DY production until he was a D+2. This was also at a time when scoring in the Q was quite a bit higher.
CD's offensive profile as a junior is much more in line with guys like Couturier and Hischier, as far as recent top Q picks go. Doesn't mean he's guaranteed to be at their level as a pro but I don't know what there is to suggest he profiles closer to Danault. It certainly isn't the tools in my view
Kevin Musto
Hard for Bedard
- Feb 16, 2018
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I think generally speaking, I don't think it's wise to make these sorts of roster fit decisions when making picks. At least not with their primo selections. You may think about organizational depth a bit more in the mid and late rounds.
I really think you just need to take the guy that in 5+ years is going to be worth the most on the trade market, even if you plan on keeping them.
Because at the end of the day, they're assets, and they can be moved for the perfect fit if they're not what you're looking for when it's time to make the push for the Cup. But you want the upper hand in those trade discussions. The 80 point winger is worth more than the 40 point defensively responsible C, imo.
Levshunov wasn't my guy at 2nd overall, but I've always been more than fine with that selection because if he winds up a top 3 RHD with size, it's hard as hell to acquire that via trade. In free agency, that's the kind of overpay that'll screw you against the cap. So I think that's an instance where Kyle was looking at picking someone who could be the perceived highest value asset in 5+ years.
Back to this pick, I just don't think you should be looking for the ideal 2C who plays defensively responsible. You should be looking for the guy that's gonna put up the most points, largely because there aren't any defensemen projected in this range.
And besides, this player won't be here next season, might not even be there the season after. Bedard and Nazar are gonna keep doing their thing. I like their odds of cementing themselves as 1C and 2C. And if they don't? This pick still shouldn't be predicated on where those guys end up playing.
Kevin Musto
Hard for Bedard
- Feb 16, 2018
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That article is all speculation.
He should play in the NCAA, but we'll see what happens.
As for Danault, when he was playing there was more talent in the Q. Huberdeau, Palat, Couturier, Marchessault, Pageau, Gourde...
Desnoyers is not playing against players of that caliber, and that was apparent when he did against London and Medicine Hat. And sure, he might be injured, but so far these games have been a rude awakening for him.
Aho was 35th pick in 2015 and no one thought he would be come so good. In his draft year he scored one goal in 10 games in Finnish junior league. Played 27 games in Liiga and had 4+7. Next year was his breakout season where he developed a lot. If everyone could´ve seen that he would have taken early in the first round.
Hischier´s production in his draft year with Halifax in regular season was similiar that Desnoyers had this year. Desnoyers playoff production was a lot better.
Again point is that even you don´t know how Desnoyers will develop. You can´t say for fact that he can´t become Hischier level talent some day just like I can´t say he will.
Kevin Musto
Hard for Bedard
- Feb 16, 2018
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Draft year Aho and Hischier have nothing to do with that conversation.
We were discussing player comps, as in what they are now.
So you are comparing prime time NHL players to draft eligible prospect? What´s the conversation?
Kevin Musto
Hard for Bedard
- Feb 16, 2018
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T2B was theorizing a scenario where Desnoyers could develop into a player like Aho or Hischier
Why are you jumping into conversations if you're not going to read the context?
- Jan 10, 2012
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The Athletic Hockey Show NHL Draft debate: Our panel ranks the top 12 prospects
What happens when four prospect analysts have to form a list via debate, persuasion and compromise? The Athletic Hockey Show found out.
www.nytimes.com
Bultman, Peters, Wheeler and Pronman debate on the 12 best prospects in this draft.
If anyone remembers, Peters was very high on Levshunov in last year's draft along with Pronman. But I found his quote to Pronman this year on the Hagens debate (Peters and Wheeler have Hagens at 3)
Kevin Musto
Hard for Bedard
- Feb 16, 2018
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Toews2Bickell
It's Showtime
- Nov 24, 2013
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Does Desnoyers have size in the same way Korchinski has size...just a tall, slenderish build, to me it seems like the answer is yes, and if that is the case I'm taking Hagens or Frondell if I want a potential center...or if you want to make a deal for Rossi or another young top 6 center and take Martone then thats fine too
Larmer83
I'm taking the high road moving forward.
The Peters quote should have been "Corey, you had Nazar listed as the 12th best Hawks prospect going into 2024-25. STFU".The Athletic Hockey Show NHL Draft debate: Our panel ranks the top 12 prospects
What happens when four prospect analysts have to form a list via debate, persuasion and compromise? The Athletic Hockey Show found out.
Bultman, Peters, Wheeler and Pronman debate on the 12 best prospects in this draft.
If anyone remembers, Peters was very high on Levshunov in last year's draft along with Pronman. But I found his quote to Pronman this year on the Hagens debate (Peters and Wheeler have Hagens at 3)
Edit: The article shows the discrepancies in rankings after Schaffer and Misa.
Toews2Bickell
It's Showtime
- Nov 24, 2013
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I guess there is a slight difference in philosophy on the draft. I think first round picks given there is a much higher probability of making the NHL should be evaluated with fit as much as talent, its easier to pencil these players into your lineup in 1-2 years down the road. The rest of the draft I think you just go purely BPA and bet on traits to outperform their draft slot and maybe get lucky on something but projecting these players in your lineup 3-5 years down the road is probably a waste of time.
If I had to rank my personal top 4 for this pick it would be Hagens/Frondell, Martone, Desnoyers...Hagens just seems like a pick and forget type of move where if it fails nobody faults you down the road but if you overthink it and he crushes it you end up taking a ton of heat for passing on him. Frondell intrigues me for the same reasons Rinzel did, the physical traits and projecting out to what he could be if it pans out, nothing excites me enough with Desnoyers to take him over Hagens, Martone is just not a center so if thats what they want then he's not going to be in the discussion for the pick if thats what they want at 3...but Martone and Hagens do seem like the two pick and forget type players and if they fail nobody will fault you for making the decision
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Kevin Musto
Hard for Bedard
- Feb 16, 2018
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The thing with a rebuild team is that even in 1-2 years, a lot will change.
How much changes under Blashill? Is he doing what's expected of him and bringing out the best of Bedard and Nazar? Do they lock up the 1C and 2C roles? Does Lardis have an amazing camp and changes the makeup of the top 6? Who is Kyle bringing in via free agency and trades?
There are so many variables at play, that you can't pick a guy based on what the roster looks like on draft day.
Chelios
Registered User
I literally said it’s fine to opine on these things, so not really sure where this response came from.
I am simply pointing out one of the reasons why people find you so unbearable when it comes to prospects. You make definitive declarations on guys you don’t like, while bending over backwards to explain away any negative for guys you like.
Toews2Bickell
It's Showtime
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I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, but I think you can do some planning for a roster 2-3 years out with picks as high as first rounders.
Obviously, if you're deciding between a 40 point center and a 70 point winger, as you believe the situation to be with Desnoyers and Martone, then you would never consider the center, but I have a hard time believing that the base case for Desnoyers is merely a 40 point center. That's just such a lousy number for a consensus top 5-10 pick.
- Feb 1, 2009
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If I'm a team drafting at #3, I'm not making the pick based on whether or not any of the prospects I'm looking at fights.
Toews2Bickell
It's Showtime
- Nov 24, 2013
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Have we lost our way as a fanbase...are we now the believers of 'no human can withstand that many fights'
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