2025 NHL Draft: Lose a ton for Porter Martone

[Forlan]

I'll give you Montour, but there is no world in which any of the rest qualify or ever qualified as "elite skaters", unless you consider a quarter of the league to be elite skaters. McAvoy has never been even a great skater, just good/above average.

My point is that Buium's physical tools are good enough to allow his smarts and brain to shine through. And my even larger point is that you have been strictly judging Dickinson off his point totals, which is an insane thing to do for a defenseman on the best team in the CHL.

I'm not saying I don't believe in Dickinson, nor that I think he's a bust. I just have a hard time seeing him as a future top pairing guy because of his short-comings, and there are several drafted defensemen who I do see as having that upside, even if their floor isn't as high as Dickinson's. Processing speed is one of the biggest things that stands in the way of a decent player becoming great, and that's his biggest weakness. His hands aren't great and his passes aren't exceptionally accurate sometimes. And he doesn't love his feet as much as I'd like him to on defense.

I'll admit to being probably more critical of Dickinson than I am of other prospects simply because I watch him more and care about him more. I watched Zayne Parekh's hat trick the other night and he was sublime, despite still getting pushed around on defense. Would I care more about the defense if he was a Sharks prospect? Probably. But he does things Sam can only dream of.


I saw Reid play for the first time recently, he was very solid. I like that he and Verheoff are two RHD with solid size for next year.

My respect, I agree with absolutely all points. Your assessment and criticism of Dickinson is fair enough

 

[Forlan]

If I had a choice between Dickinson and Hagens or Marton, then it's definitely a choice for the latter two. Their potential and tools are noticeably better. Yes, you can say that in our case the defender's position is more necessary. That's true, but when is it the same level between the candidates

 

[Juxtaposer]

You're overrating the importance of processing speed and underrating the importance of Dickinson's tools. Yes, in order to be a Makar/Hughes/Heiskanen franchise level defender you need elite processing speed and elite tools. Dickinson is likely never going to reach that level and neither is Buium.

But there are plenty of big top pairing defensemen like Jones, Ekholm, Chychrun, Nurse, Sanheim, Parayko, Gavrikov, Ekblad, Harley, etc. who are not the quickest decision makers but still manage to play 22+ minutes a night with solid to great results. They know their limitations and play a simple defensive game of snuffing out rushes before they happen, winning board and net-front battles with their size and blocking shots while occasionally taking over shifts once the puck is in the offensive zone. I understand that some of those elements of the game are still a work in progress for Dickinson but I'm fairly confident he can develop into this type of top pairing dman which is why I wouldn't even consider trading him for a pick that would get us Hagens or Martone.

If Dickinson's processing speed were NHL-average, I would agree with you. Right now it's below NHL-average, so for me the risk is that he never gets there.

He may well develop into the type of defenseman you describe, but it's a risk and even if he does, it's probably four or five years from now. I'm happy to be patient with him, but there is some appeal in drafting forwards and going the trade route for defense outside of the #1 guy.

 

[weastern bias]

You're overrating the importance of processing speed

There may be no single more important quality for a top-pair defenseman or top line-forward than processing speed

But there are plenty of big top pairing defensemen like Jones, Ekholm, Chychrun, Nurse, Sanheim, Parayko, Gavrikov, Ekblad, Harley, etc. who are not the quickest decision makers

Half of those players are not top-pair quality defensemen

 

[Hodge]

Half of those players are not top-pair quality defensemen

They're all averaging at least 22 minutes a night this season. Also I forgot about Seider who's another top pairing defenseman in the same vein.

 

[STL Shark]

If we don't get Schaefer and the choice comes to Misa/Hagens, what's everyone's opinion?

I'd personally go Misa as I think the size advantage (6'1 vs 5'10) and goal scoring ability allow him to be a nice linemate for Smith for years to come. I like building forward lines in pairs and then rotating through third pieces as momentum/play dictates, so this would mean an Eklund-Celebrini line as your top line with heady two way play and then Misa-Smith as your 2nd line that is an absolute menace in the offensive end.

 

[weastern bias]

They're all averaging at least 22 minutes a night this season. Also I forgot about Seider who's another top pairing defenseman in the same vein.

Big minutes doesn't mean top-pair caliber

If you think so then you also think Walman, Ceci and Ferraro are top-pair players

Some teams just don't have better options than playing guys beyond the depth of their abilities

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If we don't get Schaefer and the choice comes to Misa/Hagens, what's everyone's opinion?

I'd personally go Misa as I think the size advantage (6'1 vs 5'10) and goal scoring ability allow him to be a nice linemate for Smith for years to come. I like building forward lines in pairs and then rotating through third pieces as momentum/play dictates, so this would mean an Eklund-Celebrini line as your top line with heady two way play and then Misa-Smith as your 2nd line that is an absolute menace in the offensive end.

I have been leaning towards Hagens as someone that has more projectable skills to the NHL but Misa has been better this season and now with Chernyshov debuting on the same team, I'm hoping there's some chemistry there that could make the choice easier but we'll see.

 

[Hodge]

Big minutes doesn't mean top-pair caliber

If you think so then you also think Walman, Ceci and Ferraro are top-pair players

Some teams just don't have better options than playing guys beyond the depth of their abilities

Difference is the vast majority of the guys I listed are playing top pairing minutes on playoff or bubble teams.

It's completely disingenuous to compare the likes of Sanheim, Parayko and Ekblad to Walman and Ceci.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

If we don't get Schaefer and the choice comes to Misa/Hagens, what's everyone's opinion?

I'd personally go Misa as I think the size advantage (6'1 vs 5'10) and goal scoring ability allow him to be a nice linemate for Smith for years to come. I like building forward lines in pairs and then rotating through third pieces as momentum/play dictates, so this would mean an Eklund-Celebrini line as your top line with heady two way play and then Misa-Smith as your 2nd line that is an absolute menace in the offensive end.

I asked the same question last week, I think the most common answer was Misa. I think his goal scoring, and the fact he can be gritty sometimes would add more to what our current group has vs Hagens.

 

[Juxtaposer]

If we don't get Schaefer and the choice comes to Misa/Hagens, what's everyone's opinion?

I'd personally go Misa as I think the size advantage (6'1 vs 5'10) and goal scoring ability allow him to be a nice linemate for Smith for years to come. I like building forward lines in pairs and then rotating through third pieces as momentum/play dictates, so this would mean an Eklund-Celebrini line as your top line with heady two way play and then Misa-Smith as your 2nd line that is an absolute menace in the offensive end.

Consensus around here is Misa (which I agree with). I think the toughest situation would be if we had to choose between Hagens and Martone at #3.

 

[weastern bias]

Difference is the vast majority of the guys I listed are playing top pairing minutes on playoff or bubble teams.

It's completely disingenuous to compare the likes of Sanheim, Parayko and Ekblad to Walman and Ceci.

Some of those teams succeed in spite of their D core like Edmonton

You also included Seth Jones, who is a #1 in the exact same way that Jake Walman is

I'm really not seeing your point other than tall+minutes=good

 

[Hodge]

Some of those teams succeed in spite of their D core like Edmonton

You also included Seth Jones, who is a #1 in the exact same way that Jake Walman is

I'm really not seeing your point other than tall+minutes=good

My point is that these are all excellent defensemen who have some of the same shortcomings (and some of the same strengths) as Dickinson and we should be excited about the decent chance he develops into one of them. If Dickinson has Seth Jones' career, we're laughing. That would be a foundational piece to build the defense around.

 

[weastern bias]

My point is that these are all excellent defensemen who have some of the same shortcomings (and some of the same strengths) as Dickinson and we should be excited about the decent chance he develops into one of them. If Dickinson has Seth Jones' career, we're laughing. That would be a foundational piece to build the defense around.

Excellent? Eh. . . (looking SQUARELY at Darnell Nurse, lol)

But you're right that if you get that kind of value (big NHL regular Dman who can play up in the lineup if need be) out of the 11th overall pick you've done pretty well

My disagreements over labeling are less material than that, and I still do believe in Dickinson as a future mainstay, especially if he continues to work on his mental game

More than anything I believe in the kid himself, I am still taken aback by his post-draft interviews, that guy has a confidence and composure that will translate to a higher level

 

[matt trick]

D is pretty light league wide. How many cup-worthy #1 D are there in the league? Makar, Hughes, Dahlin, Heiskanen, and Morrisey. I'd include McAvoy despite a rough year. Werenski, Bouchard, Fox, Slavin, and Forsling are excellent though they each lean heavily one way or the other. Ideally you have an all situations #1, but failing that an elite offensive or defensive guy you can count on for 24 minutes in the playoffs isn't bad.

Hedman, Doughty, Pietro are there, but on the way out. On the flip side, Faber and Seider look like the next ones to be established #1s, but a step (or two) down from those guys. After that it's guys like Hanifin, Theodore, Sanheim, and Weegar who I'd take in a heartbeat, but not sure they are cup winning #1s. I'd say that's the top 20. #2s are just as thin (and I think guys like Jones, Nurse fit there despite all the shit they get), and most team's don't even have four top 4 d-men.

I do wonder if each of Schaefer, Verhoeff, Reid, and Dupont become #1 Ds. If one of those guys ends up in San Jose, never let them leave. Aside from Dupont's lack of size (who looks like the premier offensive D since I've been on HF), they have it all.

 

[Juxtaposer]

D is pretty light league wide. How many cup-worthy #1 D are there in the league? Makar, Hughes, Dahlin, Heiskanen, and Morrisey. I'd include McAvoy despite a rough year. Werenski, Bouchard, Fox, Slavin, and Forsling are excellent though they each lean heavily one way or the other. Ideally you have an all situations #1, but failing that an elite offensive or defensive guy you can count on for 24 minutes in the playoffs isn't bad.

Hedman, Doughty, Pietro are there, but on the way out. On the flip side, Faber and Seider look like the next ones to be established #1s, but a step (or two) down from those guys. After that it's guys like Hanifin, Theodore, Sanheim, and Weegar who I'd take in a heartbeat, but not sure they are cup winning #1s. I'd say that's the top 20. #2s are just as thin (and I think guys like Jones, Nurse fit there despite all the shit they get), and most team's don't even have four top 4 d-men.

I do wonder if each of Schaefer, Verhoeff, Reid, and Dupont become #1 Ds. If one of those guys ends up in San Jose, never let them leave. Aside from Dupont's lack of size (who looks like the premier offensive D since I've been on HF), they have it all.

I'm becoming less and less convinced that true #1D (Chara/Weber/prime Doughty/Keith) types are a prerequisite for winning a Cup.

 

[DG93]

I'm becoming less and less convinced that true #1D (Chara/Weber/prime Doughty/Keith) types are a prerequisite for winning a Cup.

I feel like the last 7-8 years support this theory...it also depends on how the rest of your lineup looks.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I feel like the last 7-8 years support this theory...it also depends on how the rest of your lineup looks.

As I've said, you do need a defenseman who can perform at a true #1D level in offense, defense, and minute-munching. You just don't need all of those aspects in a single defenseman.