2025 HHOF

[Staniowski]

I'm surprised there's so little support for Patrik Elias, who played his entire career with one (successful) team, playing every role under the sun.

If Hossa and Alfredsson are in, why not Patrik Elias?

Not saying 2025 necessarily, but he should definitely get in under current standards.

I think Elias has a very good chance of getting in, especially if it happens fairly soon.

But it's not hard to see why it might not happen...he doesn't have that many career points; he has only one top-ten points-per-game finish (8th) in his career (in a relatively weak era); he has a reputation of being strong defensively, but he has virtually no Selke votes; and he has one of the worst face off winning percentages ever.

So it could be interesting with Elias.

 

[Staniowski]

Yes, but first year of eligibility HHOF is a different category (and in the past waiving the waiting window an even different one)

Some very obvious HHOF player had to wait, like Turgeon-Lindros-Bure (maybe partly for the last 2 a bit of will they make a comeback they are quite young... but maybe also, won nothing in the nhl, did not play much, some did not like you for Lindros)

By making the Roenick-Turgeon-Barasso-Carbonneau-Lindros wait, they create a different class of just being an HHOF or not versus the Brodeur-Iginla-Hossa-StLouis-Lundqvist-Lidstrom-Pronger-Chelios-Sakic-Sundin-Yzerman-Messier-Stevens-MacInnis.

here is the list of 3 years or less of waiting (they tend to be no weakness entry, if you missed a lot of time like Lemieux-Forsberg-Orr you made up for it by winning when you played, if you did not win it like Iginla-Sundin-Luongo you had giant longevity superb career to make it a no-brainer):
-9 Mario Lemieux
-8 Gordie Howe
-3 Guy Lafleur
0 Bobby Orr
0 Wayne Gretzky
1 Maurice Richard
1 Ted Lindsay
1 Terry Sawchuk
1 Jean Beliveau
2 Red Kelly
3 Tim Horton
3 Alex Delvecchio
3 John Bucyk
3 Yvan Cournoyer
3 Stan Mikita
3 Bobby Hull
3 Phil Esposito
3 Serge Savard
3 Bobby Clarke
3 Brad Park
3 Gilbert Perreault
3 Denis Potvin
3 Lanny McDonald
3 Bob Gainey
3 Marcel Dionne
3 Larry Robinson
3 Bryan Trottier
3 Peter Stastny
3 Denis Savard
3 Joe Mullen
3 Jari Kurri
3 Mike Gartner
3 Viacheslav Fetisov
3 Grant Fuhr
3 Larry Murphy
3 Paul Coffey
3 Raymond Bourque
3 Patrick Roy
3 Scott Stevens
3 Mark Messier
3 Al MacInnis
3 Ron Francis
3 Steve Yzerman
3 Luc Robitaille
3 Brian Leetch
3 Brett Hull
3 Mats Sundin
3 Joe Sakic
3 Scott Niedermayer
3 Chris Chelios
3 Mike Modano
3 Peter Forsberg
3 Chris Pronger
3 Nicklas Lidstrom
3 Teemu Selanne
3 Martin St. Louis
3 Martin Brodeur
3 Jarome Iginla
3 Marian Hossa
3 Roberto Luongo
3 Henrik Lundqvist
3 Shea Weber




That list of name feel different from the had to wait 9 years or more (it would be easy to guess for someone which was which):
9 Ted Kennedy
9 Ed Giacomin
9 Guy Lapointe
9 Rod Langway
9 Cam Neely
9 Pavel Bure
9 Eric Lindros
10 Bill Mosienko
10 Butch Bouchard
10 Sergei Zubov
11 Dino Ciccarelli
11 Dave Andreychuk
12 Allan Stanley
12 Bernie Federko
12 Glenn Anderson
12 Phil Housley
13 Jacques Laperriere
14 Clark Gillies
15 Jeremy Roenick
16 Leo Boivin
16 Mark Howe
16 Pierre Turgeon
19 Bob Pulford
19 Sergei Makarov
19 Guy Carbonneau
20 Bill Quackenbush
20 Harry Lumley
20 Tom Barrasso
21 Mike Vernon
22 Kevin Lowe
23 Bert Olmstead
27 Doug Wilson
29 Fern Flaman
34 Dick Duff
34 Rogie Vachon
36 Vaclav Nedomansky
37 Harry Watson
38 Edgar Laprade

I.e. there is category/level of HHOF induction and not just you are a HHOF guy or not, otherwise why a waiting system, every year include all the HHOF retired (even if it is 6 of them) and do not create those subclass....

The most surprising name for the had to wait in the recent was maybe Shanahan, but sakic-sundin-oates-bure is year....

Well, there's somewhat of a categorization, or different levels, of inductions. We can say that it tends in the direction of more deserving candidates to be inducted quicker, and less deserving candidates to wait. However, it's not designed to be a clean process that makes this kind of categorization clear or absolute. The nomination and ballot process is the biggest problem, but it's not the only problem.

As an example, in any given year, somebody being inducted doesn't mean that the Selection Committee thinks that player deserves induction more than a player who wasn't inducted. Unfortunately, the process doesn't work that way.

I know fans like to imagine that getting inducted quickly means something, but it only means something in a very general sense. You can't draw absolute conclusions from it.

When players are inducted, they are all equal as Honoured Members. There are no levels. Orr is equal to Housley: Gretzky is equal to Carbonneau and Duff. Not only that, but Orr and Duff are equal to Frank Selke and Scotty Bowman....there is only the category of Honoured Members. The Player and Builder categories only exist for the nomination and ballot process. That's why Toe Blake and Jacques Lemaire are not eligible to be inducted in the Builder Category...i.e. they are already Honoured Members.

Things change over time too. In the first year of inductions, the "level" for player inductions was based on whether or not you were dead....in most cases, they died very young.

So, it tends a certain way, but the process is not designed to achieve that in any dependable way.

 

[The Panther]

Lecavalier should have been cruising to a first ballot hall of fame career after he finally got going just to be felled by injuries, shame really

I'm not sure about "cruising"; it was actually more like stumbling out of the gate. Lecavalier's first four seasons in the League produced this average, per 82 games played:
49 points, -24

By four years after his draft, he would have been regarded as a mild bust, albeit with the usual thing of being trapped on a low-scoring, pretty poor team.

 

[HFpapi]

I'm seeing a handful of posts that imply Thornton and Chara are the only two real locks for this year.

Am I crazy for thinking Keith is more of a sure thing than Chara? 2x Norris, 1x Smythe, 3 cups, 2 gold medals vs 1 Norris and 1 cup?

Chara has crazy longevity and a crazy number of Norris top 5 finishes and I think this is all pedantic anyways since I consider both Chara and Keith 100% locks but I'm not sure why people have Chara > Keith in terms of HOF candidacy.

 

[Staniowski]

I'm seeing a handful of posts that imply Thornton and Chara are the only two real locks for this year.

Am I crazy for thinking Keith is more of a sure thing than Chara? 2x Norris, 1x Smythe, 3 cups, 2 gold medals vs 1 Norris and 1 cup?

Chara has crazy longevity and a crazy number of Norris top 5 finishes and I think this is all pedantic anyways since I consider both Chara and Keith 100% locks but I'm not sure why people have Chara > Keith in terms of HOF candidacy.

I'd definitely vote for Chara over Keith.

Chara finished top-5 in Norris voting 8 times; Keith only 3 times. I wouldn't vote based on that, but it is indicative of their quality of play.

If I had a vote, I wouldn't vote for Keith this year. He's not one of the 4-best eligible players. But that doesn't mean I don't think he'll get in this year; he'll have a good chance, no doubt.

 

[HFpapi]

I'd definitely vote for Chara over Keith.

Chara finished top-5 in Norris voting 8 times; Keith only 3 times. I wouldn't vote based on that, but it is indicative of their quality of play.

If I had a vote, I wouldn't vote for Keith this year. He's not one of the 4-best eligible players. But that doesn't mean I don't think he'll get in this year; he'll have a good chance, no doubt.

The first half of your comment is fair even if I don't hold the same opinion.

The bolded part on the other hand is straight up crazy. Keith is a slam-dunk 100% first ballet HOF'er.

Please don't tell me you're a Habs fan who thinks Price is ahead of him?

Thornton and Chara have arguments over Keith obviously but I would love to hear who the other 2 are?

 

[Staniowski]

The first half of your comment is fair even if I don't hold the same opinion.

The bolded part on the other hand is straight up crazy. Keith is a slam-dunk 100% first ballet HOF'er.

Please don't tell me you're a Habs fan who thinks Price is ahead of him?

Thornton and Chara have arguments over Keith obviously but I would love to hear who the other 2 are?

I haven't given any thought on who I'd vote for if I had a vote, but Carey Price and Vladimir Krutov for sure....they're probably the two best eligible players.

I'd vote Getzlaf over both Thornton and Keith, but not sure if Getzlaf would be one of the four either. Maybe.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

A couple of posts from our late Canadiens1958 on Patrik Elias:

A heartfelt thanks for sharing this. I wasn’t active or even registered for C1958’s time here, but his perspectives remain interesting reads.

I don’t really agree with your phrasing on “punishing” Thornton, of course he belongs, but not “first-ballotting” deserving HHoF players doesn’t seem as controversial to me as it does to others. I won’t shake my head in appalled disbelief if a couple of the very esteemed first-year eligibles were put on hold to make room for Elias and Zetterberg.

 

[HFpapi]

I haven't given any thought on who I'd vote for if I had a vote, but Carey Price and Vladimir Krutov for sure....they're probably the two best eligible players.

I'd vote Getzlaf over both Thornton and Keith, but not sure if Getzlaf would be one of the four either. Maybe.

So let me take inventory. You think:

a) Carey Price has a better chance at the HOF than Duncan Keith
b) Ryan Getzlaf has a better HOF chance than both Joe Thornton & Duncan Keith
c) Keith might not even be TOP SIX best candidates for the HOF this year.

Lol those are some opinions....

 

[Staniowski]

So let me take inventory. You think:

a) Carey Price has a better chance at the HOF than Duncan Keith
b) Ryan Getzlaf has a better HOF chance than both Joe Thornton & Duncan Keith
c) Keith might not even be TOP SIX best candidates for the HOF this year.

Lol those are some opinions....

No, my post is about who I'd vote for. It has nothing to do with who has a better chance of being inducted. Which players have the better chance is about predicting how other people will vote.

Thornton, Keith, Chara, and Price all have a good chance of being inducted next month.

 

[wetcoast]

The first half of your comment is fair even if I don't hold the same opinion.

The bolded part on the other hand is straight up crazy. Keith is a slam-dunk 100% first ballet HOF'er.

Please don't tell me you're a Habs fan who thinks Price is ahead of him?

Thornton and Chara have arguments over Keith obviously but I would love to hear who the other 2 are?

Keith going in this year as the committee loves playoff performers and Keith in the 3 SC the Black Hawks won was probably their most important piece.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

I think you'll be correct, but I could also see them trying to make space to put Thornton and Marleau in at the same time.

I feel like if Marleau has any shot, it will have to be in the same class as Thornton. Mind you, they shouldn't, but I don't think you have to squint too hard to see that happening.

It would be a big disrespect to Thornton if they did.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I'm not sure about "cruising"; it was actually more like stumbling out of the gate. Lecavalier's first four seasons in the League produced this average, per 82 games played:
49 points, -24

By four years after his draft, he would have been regarded as a mild bust, albeit with the usual thing of being trapped on a low-scoring, pretty poor team.

Key words in the post you’re quoting, I think, were “after he finally got going.”

 

[MadLuke]

As an example, in any given year, somebody being inducted doesn't mean that the Selection Committee thinks that player deserves induction more than a player who wasn't inducted. Unfortunately, the process doesn't work that way.

Exactly (if it did the concept of how long did you wait would be quite different), it is not a pure who are the 4 best candidate not in the hall.

Take the 2010 year, when only Ciccarelli got in, anyone doubt Belfour-Nieuwendyk would not end up in the hall ? Anyone think they have to wait one year if it was Sakic-Yzerman that retired in 2007 ?

I do not imagine Ciccarelli got in before Gilmour because he had a stronger HHOF case but because he was waiting 4 more years, there is a fuzzy how long you have been waiting * how strong of a case you have - thing we do not like about you going on (with all the personal sponsor, politic, etc... above that of course).

So, it tends a certain way, but the process is not designed to achieve that in any dependable way.

Of course, but everyone understand a bit why Iginla (with his 625 goals-1300pts-"Hart"/art ross, 2 richard) despite retiring after Datsyuk and Alfredsson got in first and that this mean something (to the voters and the players), not that it is precise or strongly designed-enforced.

Would they have to guess who of Lidstrom or Blake had to wait one year they would guess right, same for who of Yzerman or Nieuwendyk (to pick only players that did not had to wait because everyone was not sure if they would be in HHOF, just pick 100% lock, just a matter of when). I think people overreact to that notion, because it is not exactly like baseball (we do not even know if they use ballot or just talk-consensus around a table each year) and some use first ballot expression.

Not exactly the same does not mean there is zero notion of waiting game or not and no prestige to it.

When players are inducted, they are all equal as Honoured Members. There are no levels.

And that why they make so much difference in how they are inducted to create that level, one could argue that Carbonneau getting in after 19 years after retirement and a coach-media career to hang around the voters is exactly the same honors and level of induction than Wayne Gretzky for who not only the waive the waiting period for him to get in right away but change the rules to say to make that honors even bigger he will be the last one to get it. But I feel, everyone even if they cannot express how, know in their gut that Carbonneau induction was equal to Gretzky and if we visit the HHOF in person we do not expect the Gretkzy presence to be 100% equal to the Carbonneau presence in it.

Maybe they feature one more than the other in special exibition, list of milestone taking more place for one than the other and so on.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190411074019/https://www.hhof.com/MarchBreak/marchBreak.shtml

LIMITED-TIME PHOTO OP
Out of its case during MARCH BREAK ONLY! Snap a photo with the historic net that Wayne Gretzky used to score his 802nd goal to become the NHL’s all-time leading scorer, surpassing his idol, Gordie Howe. Also on display are the gloves, stick and puck that achieved this milestone.