2025 HHOF

[BenchBrawl]

Sure the narrative from the 05 playoffs when he played injured follow him around everywhere.

I guess another point is that there is a false equivalency from baseball regarding "first time HHOFer's" that really doesn't translate to the NHL but some people like the idea.

They vote in baseball and it's all public and a different process.

Also I'm agreement with this post here and the four guys going in are easy calls.


So I'm more of a he is either in or he isn't, the waiting game not so worried about.

I'm a Joe Thornton fan since his early days but the truth is that his post-season legacy is underwhelming start to finish. Not catastrophic like the current Toronto stars, but he didn't perform to the level that was expected based on his RS play. And it wasn't just one year.

I don't want to relegate him to the dust bin of history, I just suggest he shouldn't get fast tracked to the highest honor imaginable.

 

[wetcoast]

As for Auston Matthews tracking to be a 1st ballot HHOF, don't you see the problem with this, and why I want Thornton to wait a couple of years (before invariably getting in)?

Put yourself in the shoes of Toronto Maple Leafs fans, their emotions year after year, the disappointments, the false hopes, the humiliation. This is why it matters that you show up big in the playoffs. It matters to you, and to the fans. It even matters to the competition, whose glory depends on what kind of adversary they beat.

Now the narrative has gone so far as blaming the fans and the city! "It's too hard to play in Toronto", "If they played elsewhere, they would win more". How f***ing outrageous and insulting to a passionate fanbase.

I got nothing here.

The whole Leafs situation and the playoffs just defies logic and is the ultimate bad luck scenario.

That being said his production and play isn't horrible and can be salvaged as he still has lots of hockey left but ya sure I get it the overall situation is worse than the actual stats.

 

[MadLuke]

I guess another point is that there is a false equivalency from baseball regarding "first time HHOFer's" that really doesn't translate to the NHL but some people like the idea.

Yet there seem to be quite clear and too big to ignore correlation with the amount of years you have to wait and your level of HHOF career....

we do not need to translate it from baseball when the Hockey Hall of fame decided Howe-Richard did not had to wait 3 years, those name do they feel like random inductee or special one ?:

• 1947 – Dit Clapper retired on February 12, 1947.
• 1961 – Maurice "Rocket" Richard retired following the 1960-61 season.
• 1966 – Ted Lindsay retired in 1965.
• 1969 – Leonard "Red" Kelly retired in 1967.
• 1971 – Terry Sawchuk passed away in Summer of '70.
• 1972 – Jean Beliveau retired in 1972.
• 1972 – Gordie Howe retired in 1972, came out of retirement in 1973.
• 1979 – Bobby Orr retired in 1979 due to knee injury.
• 1997 – Mario Lemieux retired in 1997, came out of retirement in 2000.
• 1999 – Wayne Gretzky retired in 1999.

If you take a guess, will Crosby-Ovechkin have to wait or would he get in right away after 3 years ?
Are you as confident about it for Getzlaf or Corey Perry ? If you hesitate, why ? Is there a difference between those 2 tier of players, even if they are certain to end in the HHOF one day there is something about having to wait or not that distinguish them ? And the Hall process is build around creating those class levels of inductee on purpose, with a voting group that take history into account and waiting period in their decisions process ?

I feel this is everyone knows it thing... All my comments are agnostics regarding Thornton, Art Ross-Hart winners, top 15 all-time in points despite starting to play the first season the DPE started, no problem having him right away, nor feel the HHOF need to send a message much, 2006 Olympics has the big guy, no cup, it is already done.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm surprised there's so little support for Patrik Elias, who played his entire career with one (successful) team, playing every role under the sun.

If Hossa and Alfredsson are in, why not Patrik Elias?

Not saying 2025 necessarily, but he should definitely get in under current standards.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm a Joe Thornton fan since his early days but the truth is that his post-season legacy is underwhelming start to finish. Not catastrophic like the current Toronto stars, but he didn't perform to the level that was expected based on his RS play. And it wasn't just one year.

I don't want to relegate him to the dust bin of history, I just suggest he shouldn't get fast tracked to the highest honor imaginable.

Sure but most players production drops in the playoffs.

Lets compare Orr, who only has prime years and is probably an extreme outlier for only having a prime

Regular season rate per 82 games 114 points to playoffs per 82- 102 points.

Now Thornton regular season 74 points down to 59.

For AM just in raw stats his is 95 point rate regular season down to 59, where he ends up who knows.

I'll throw out everyone's favorite playoff whipping boy, Marcel Dionne 108-75.

Among forwards I bet Thornton doesn't look as bad as his narrative suggests but I'm not doing the legwork on it.

 

[wetcoast]

Yet there seem to be quite clear and too big to ignore correlation with the amount of years you have to wait and your level of HHOF career....

we do not need to translate it from baseball when the Hockey Hall of fame decided Howe-Richard did not had to wait 3 years, those name do they feel like random inductee or special one ?:

• 1947 – Dit Clapper retired on February 12, 1947.
• 1961 – Maurice "Rocket" Richard retired following the 1960-61 season.
• 1966 – Ted Lindsay retired in 1965.
• 1969 – Leonard "Red" Kelly retired in 1967.
• 1971 – Terry Sawchuk passed away in Summer of '70.
• 1972 – Jean Beliveau retired in 1972.
• 1972 – Gordie Howe retired in 1972, came out of retirement in 1973.
• 1979 – Bobby Orr retired in 1979 due to knee injury.
• 1997 – Mario Lemieux retired in 1997, came out of retirement in 2000.
• 1999 – Wayne Gretzky retired in 1999.

If you take a guess, will Crosby-Ovechkin have to wait or would he get in right away after 3 years ?
Are you as confident about it for Getzlaf or Corey Perry ? If you hesitate, why ? Is there a difference between those 2 tier of players, even if they are certain to end in the HHOF one day there is something about having to wait or not that distinguish them ? And the Hall process is build around creating those class levels of inductee on purpose, with a voting group that take history into account and waiting period in their decisions process ?

I feel this is everyone knows it thing... All my comments are agnostics regarding Thornton, Art Ross-Hart winners, top 15 all-time in points despite starting to play the first season the DPE started, no problem having him right away, nor feel the HHOF need to send a message much, 2006 Olympics has the big guy, no cup, it is already done.

To be honest I'm not really all that invested in what the HHOF does with regards to the waiting period as I'm more of a "is he a HHOFer or not" and Crosby/Oveckhin obviously are.

Getzlaf might be and Corey Perry wouldn't be in my HHOF.

Also the voting group in baseball ahs public conversations around the process, hockey simply doesn't and might be trying to mimic baseball but it's 2 entirely different processes.

The waiting period is also something that the majority of hockey fans probably don't even give much thought to as well.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Patrik Elias

Played his prime in the dead puck era
Played his full career with the New Jersey Devils
400+ goals
1025 pts in 1240 games
125 pts in 160 playoff games
2x Stanley Cups, one of which he led his team in scoring tied with Jason Arnott
4x Stanley Cup Finalist

Versatile, could play wing or center, known to adapt to various types of linemates.
Good at both offense and defense.

This is low-key a dream-like career.

 

[MadLuke]

Fair enough but aside from diehard hockey nerds like us most people don't look at this and it doesn't really mean anything in the big scheme of things does it?

I think a lot of this is for the player themselves (and the type of people that hang out with, could be voters) and for them I can imagine being a bit of a status, when Shanahan did not got in right away despite his career, Team Canada mainstay and connections, he probably looked at who did and because it is 4 incredible candidate be more OK with it.

Once you start to assign a big status to it, like they so clearly did (even by stopping doing it officially after Gretzky that was clearly to make Gretzky even more special) the players will start to look at it. If they make Crosby or Ovechkin wait even just one year people would ask question and start to talk, because it is so obviously a thing that everyone knows and follows (at least everyone that comments on HHOF inductions).

People would say maybe they want them to go in the same year (if they do not retire together) for example trying to find a reason, Russia ? if the way still going on and it is Ovechkin. etc...

Also let's say that the voters do end up "punishing Thornton and AM (assuming his trajectory) and not voting them in, what do they do?

Or a 2008-2010 when they make a Bure-Lindros quite ostensibly wait, they had a lot of room.

2007, 4 all time really big name (francis-MacInnis-Messier-Stevens) they all retired fro teh lock-out creating a super year0
the first year after the lock out create a big retirement wave and a big 2009 has well, Hull-Leetch-Robitaille-Yzerman all get in with 0 waiting time.

Those 8 names maybe created a bit of a mental bar for who are worthy, around it they just put people that waited a long time and Larionov (An KLM soviet and NHL cup winner) or maybe to make those more specials, they took a slow break. They do not have a minimum they must put in every year.

Or they can use it to put the long waiting name in.

 

[wetcoast]

I think a lot of this is for the player themselves (and the type of people that hang out with, could be voters) and for them I can imagine being a bit of a status, when Shanahan did not got in right away despite his career, Team Canada mainstay and connections, he probably looked at who did and because it is 4 incredible candidate be more OK with it.

Once you start to assign a big status to it, like they so clearly did (even by stopping doing it officially after Gretzky that was clearly to make Gretzky even more special) the players will start to look at it. If they make Crosby or Ovechkin wait even just one year people would ask question and start to talk, because it is so obviously a thing that everyone knows and follows (at least everyone that comments on HHOF inductions).

People would say maybe they want them to go in the same year (if they do not retire together) for example trying to find a reason, Russia ? if the way still going on and it is Ovechkin. etc...


Or a 2008-2010 when they make a Bure-Lindros quite ostensibly wait, they had a lot of room.

2007, 4 all time really big name (francis-MacInnis-Messier-Stevens) they all retired fro teh lock-out creating a super year0
the first year after the lock out create a big retirement wave and a big 2009 has well, Hull-Leetch-Robitaille-Yzerman all get in with 0 waiting time.

Those 8 names maybe created a bit of a mental bar for who are worthy, around it they just put people that waited a long time and Larionov (An KLM soviet and NHL cup winner) or maybe to make those more specials, they took a slow break. They do not have a minimum they must put in every year.

Or they can use it to put the long waiting name in.

I've done a lot of reading on the baseball HHOF and voters and to me it comes down to politics and the process usurping the actual players and that might be why I'm not that invested in waiting periods and would rather focus on the players than any writers or voters sense of self importance.

At the end of the day guys like Thornton and AM will be getting in and we can have discussions around those players as after all that's what we do here.

 

[MadLuke]

The waiting period is also something that the majority of hockey fans probably don't even give much thought to as well.

But the player do... all of this is a lot for them directly more than the fans, it is a big honor for them and it is a large group the current + ex player (coaching-gm staff + media) that knowns and see each other's all the time at golf tourney, charity events and so on.

Has for fans do not give much thought, if Crosby-Ovechkin retire the exact same year and one of the 2 get in before the other... would see if the majority of hockey fans do not give much thought about it I am sure many would care.

They usually do not because the voting body tend to be very well aligned with fans in general about who get in, who does it right away and who has to wait.

 

[BenchBrawl]

A bit of a trivia, but can you guess who was the leading playoff scorer of the 2000s?

Spoiler: ???

Patrick Elias.

 

[BenchBrawl]

A couple of posts from our late Canadiens1958 on Patrik Elias:

Comparable



The key comparable for Patrick Elias is bolded. Effectively in the stretch from 2000-2009 he managed what Jacques Lemaire did in the 1970s while being a key player in the teams defense.

He will make the HHOF.

Yes Elias was a throwback since he brought the value of 2-3 regulars to a team due to his versitility. Think Jacques Lemaire but primarily a winger.

The others, especially Heatley, Naslund were productive players on a line but never the motor of a line.

1995 -2003 Devils



Versions of the trap go back to at least 1950. Properly deployed and attacked, the trap is a joy to watch. The Devils employed a very simple version - the neutral zone trap. That teams could not break the trap speaks to the overall quality of the contemporary NHL teams and players who were size as opposed to skill oriented.

So whether you have a strong or a weak era the SC tends to cluster around a very limited number of teams.

Devils are underappreciated for two main reasons. Most do not recognize the value or greatness of Martin Brodeur. Also while paying lip service to team concepts and defensive hockey in general, players like Niedermayer, Stevens, Rafalski, Holik, Elias etc are not recognized for their overall diverse talents and ability to gel into a team but are granted credit for singular skills. Stevens for hitting, Niedermayer for skating, etc.

O6 Player



Elias and Alfredsson fit the mold of an O6 player. Pre Orr Johnny Bucyk, better balance between offense and defense than Andy Bathgate.

Both are future HHOFers.

Winning Cups



Again looking at the Devils from a perspective of 10 years down the road. So apply the same perspective to the teams I mentioned.

1986 Canadiens with Patrick Roy and Larry Robinson.

Compare Elias with the most important forward on the following cup winners. 1993 Canadiens, 1986 Canadiens. None had the overall game or longevity. Through in some of the recent winners - Anaheim, LA, Boston, Tampa Bay, Carolina and you more or less have the same answer. Perhaps a higher peak but not in terms of overall game or longevity or contribution to that specific SC victory or team.

Elias is a more complete player than Sykora. What did Sykora do without Elias? No other comparable from the NHL LW unless you go the HHOF route - Shanahan.

Patrik Elias



In terms of overall game and contribution amongst his contemporaries at LW, Patrik Elias would rank just behind Brendan Shanahan. Not a first ballot selection but definitely worthy.

The position has changed too much with the left wing look and strict north / south demands. Duff had Kariya's smarts and quickness without the elite offense, better defensively and in the corners.Prentice had similarities to Patrik Elias, not as defensively polished - some of the worst coaching in history, not the same playoff performer.

 

[VanIslander]

Now:

1. Chara
2. Thornton

Now if not later:

3. Zetterberg
4. Elias or Keith

Goalies later.

 

[tabness]

I'd only put Zetterberg and Thornton in actually this year. Make Keith wait a year, Chara a couple though they do belong I guess. Price certainly belongs but I feel goalies should have their own category.

Lecavalier should have been cruising to a first ballot hall of fame career after he finally got going just to be felled by injuries, shame really

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'd only put Zetterberg and Thornton in actually this year. Make Keith wait a year, Chara a couple though they do belong I guess. Price certainly belongs but I feel goalies should have their own category.

Lecavalier should have been cruising to a first ballot hall of fame career after he finally got going just to be felled by injuries, shame really

Agreed, few seem to remember how good he was when he started peaking.

The real complete package at center.

 

[seventieslord]

Patrik Elias

Played his prime in the dead puck era
Played his full career with the New Jersey Devils
400+ goals
1025 pts in 1240 games
125 pts in 160 playoff games
2x Stanley Cups, one of which he led his team in scoring tied with Jason Arnott
4x Stanley Cup Finalist

Versatile, could play wing or center, known to adapt to various types of linemates.
Good at both offense and defense.

This is low-key a dream-like career.

The tail end of Elias' career was in the dawning age of advanced analytics, and they seem to suggest he was much more than "good" at defense even at that age.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The tail end of Elias' career was in the dawning age of advanced analytics, and they seem to suggest he was much more than "good" at defense even at that age.

Exactly what we'd expect from a Jacques Lemaire player who actually stayed with the team.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

A bit of a trivia, but can you guess who was the leading playoff scorer of the 2000s?

Spoiler: ???

Patrick Elias.

I was going to post this. A great trivia question.

 

[GlitchMarner]

To be honest I'm not really all that invested in what the HHOF does with regards to the waiting period as I'm more of a "is he a HHOFer or not" and Crosby/Oveckhin obviously are.

Getzlaf might be and Corey Perry wouldn't be in my HHOF.

Also the voting group in baseball ahs public conversations around the process, hockey simply doesn't and might be trying to mimic baseball but it's 2 entirely different processes.

The waiting period is also something that the majority of hockey fans probably don't even give much thought to as well.

If Corey Perry wins a Cup this year with the Oilers, I feel there's a good chance he'll be inducted.

I was going to say he was inconsistent, but he really only has two elite seasons (people underrate/overlook 2014). I guess he was pretty consistently a very good but not elite player in his prime outside of those seasons.

But with two Cups (again, if he wins this year), a ton of long playoff runs, a Hart and Rocket, numerous top ten goal scoring finishes, International success and pretty good career numbers, I have a feeling he'll eventually get in. Winning a Cup in your last year seems to leave a good impression in people's minds (think of Lanny and Andreychuk).

 

[BenchBrawl]

Perry should be in regardless what happens this year. He is already 7th in playoff games played, and many would argue not by accident.

 

[rmartin65]

Perry is a weird one for me. My gut reaction is always "Yes, he's a HoFer. Not a particularly strong one, but he gets in in a weak year and doesn't look out of place". Then I actually look at the stats/awards/career totals and wonder why I feel so strongly about a forward with less than 500 goals, less than 1000 points, and really only two "great" seasons.

 

[MadLuke]

Perry also has a lot of non nhl storyline, Triple Gold + world Junior + memorial cup + world cup, only Scott Niedemayer did it I think. And for those not as a passenger, team captain/big player often.

With that level of longevity and playoff success, it would be a strange first non goaltender post ww2 Hart winner to never make it in. I think it will by Taylor Hall that will have the honor to break that mold.

It is a bit surprising that he is not in the 450-1000 pts club playing for that long, his 2009-2016 prime was in a low scoring era too, only Ovechkin-Stamkos scored more goals in that window (and only Crosby-Kovalchuk in goal per games, he was a clean top 5 goalscorer of his era).

Nothing special for an HHOF candidate (he did not beat anyone great either, Marleau-Kessel-Carter type), but they are low scoring era depressed numbers.

If not for the playoff, a bit legendary junior team (because of the lock-out, the focus Crosby brought), intl success, Kovalchuck, Benn, Naslund, John LeClair, Fleury, Bondra, Elias, Tkachuk should maybe be ahead (or have an argument) on the wing, but there is a good amount of career extra that voters can like.

 

[BenchBrawl]

We are talking about 5 trips to the Stanley Cup Finals in 6 years after his departure from Anaheim if Edmonton wins against Dallas.

A crazy "second career".

Granted maybe he will have lost all 5 of them, but no one really believes he is responsible. He is a luxury depth player + vet leader type, it's still on the younger core players to do what it takes.

Perry already has his own Stanley Cup with his main team.

Like Madluke said, he also has the full spectrum pedigree outside the NHL.

He is a lock to be inducted.

 

[carjackmalone]

My legacy picks are

Rick Martin
Tim Kerr
Dave Taylor

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

thornton and chara are stone cold locks for immediately getting in immediately

keith is as close as it gets, but it’s conceivable that he could get unfathomably passed over for one year à la hawerchuk or larionov

price is less certain for me. a very good bet, but i can see them going another way on the fourth guy initially

marleau is inevitable if not immediately, for example, so i can see him going in insteas of price

zetterberg should have happened by now, by most people’s tally

elias also should have happened but i can see why it would take longer for him