OT: 2024 Washington Commanders thread: change we can believe in!

[g00n]

Could you devise a writing of the rule that places responsibility on the QB there? Some kind of condition that essentially removes slide protection if, say... done in the direction of an opponent or something? Distance was my first thought but that's insanely hard to do in real time with two guys closing distance at various speeds.

I think the slide should continue to exist for the health of the game unless we're going to fairly drastically change what the league needs to look for in a QB. I also agree that these rules are virtually always weaponized by competitors who want to win, so there needs to be an element of risk at play...

One thing just kind of came to me: what if a QB has to signify that he's sliding by holding the ball over his head? Failure to allow a critical point of contact (knee, hip, elbow, etc.) down within a second or so is a flag and 15 yards (from scrimmage if you want it to hurt), but the QB is not eligible to be hit once the ball is fully above the helmet. It's an unnatural motion, discourages playing too close to contact as it massively risks ball security, and if the ball isn't above your head when you slide you're eligible for the same contact as any other player.

It would have to be codified in a way that distinctly removes the option of throwing, either by only being valid after the line of scrimmage or establishing another "tuck rule/throwing motion" kind of line but if everyone had to hold the ball like a torch we'd get a pretty clear idea of who is running for extra yards. Broadcasts declaration way in time to allow defenders to plan against it without being at a significant disadvantage, doesn't impact reaching for pylons either... could actually work?

I think if a QB has time to hoist the ball above his head or give any other kind of "I'm going to slide" signal then he's already got plenty of time to avoid a hit. And anything initiated after the point where any nearby defender (seen or UNseen) might lower his helmet and lose sight of some body part of the QB won't work for logistical reasons.

As Jags said pretty well, it's about the timing and the inevitability of players pushing things right up to the limit (along with the speed and chaos involved).

Unless someone comes up with an ingenious way to slow down the game around QBs without ruining it, I just don't believe there's a "safe" way for a QB to scramble that allows him different treatment from everyone else. Either the QB is just like every other player once he leaves the pocket, or he wears 2 flags on his belt for defenders to pull.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Three game suspension for the hit

 

[TheSmokingMan]

I think if a QB has time to hoist the ball above his head or give any other kind of "I'm going to slide" signal then he's already got plenty of time to avoid a hit. And anything initiated after the point where any nearby defender (seen or UNseen) might lower his helmet and lose sight of some body part of the QB won't work for logistical reasons.

As Jags said pretty well, it's about the timing and the inevitability of players pushing things right up to the limit (along with the speed and chaos involved).

Unless someone comes up with an ingenious way to slow down the game around QBs without ruining it, I just don't believe there's a "safe" way for a QB to scramble that allows him different treatment from everyone else. Either the QB is just like every other player once he leaves the pocket, or he wears 2 flags on his belt for defenders to pull.

QB is the most important position on the team and also one of the most vulnerable to injury. They are NOT like any other player on the field and it makes sense that the league wants to protect them. Franchises live and die by their QB's. Not to mention they are the most marketable asset the NFL has to bring fans in. The teams will support almost any NFL rules that protect their most valuable asset whether it seems fair or not.

 

[ynotcaps]

It's natural in the face of a blatant dirty hit to try to eliminate that kind of play, but I think the reality is that you can't legislate that kind of thing out of the game by further changing the rules around QB runs.

I might even argue that the fact that QBs go down differently than other runners actually opens them up to greater injury risk: how many RBs or WRs do you see taking those kinds of hits? None really come to mind because they finish the plays in a typical fashion, head-down and moving forward. I can't think of a single instance where a RB got knocked out sliding feet-first. And when WRs get injured, it's almost always on plays where the defender arrives and lays a hit at the same time the ball arrives, which is not at all similar to a QB run.

Yes, most QBs are built differently than RBs and don't have the bodies to take the constant hits that RBs take, but it feels like if they finished plays more naturally -- similarly to how RBs do -- they might be at lesser risk of taking those kinds of hits.

That said, Al-Shaair deserved every bit of the 3-game suspension he got. When a clown makes a dirty play, making him sit for weeks is the best way to discourage that behavior.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Don’t slide feet first. Just roll forward, problem solved. You are down either way, and it eliminates the upper torso being so “available” to be hit when you slide.

I like how JD5 is doing that.

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

Awful, awful news from Trent and his family.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5964975/2024/12/02/trent-williams-son-sf-49ers/?source=user_shared_article

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Three game suspension for the hit

Glad they dropped the hammer…

 

[Jags]

Could you devise a writing of the rule that places responsibility on the QB there?

Sure, but my wording would be very general; a "you know it when you see it" kind of thing. I have absolutely no issue with QBs being treated differently for the sake of protection, but the onus should be on the QB to adhere to those protections. If they push it to the point where defenders have to stop playing football or defy physics to avoid a penalty, that hurts the game.

So I'm good with a rule for sliding. "A QB must get down in time for a defender to reasonably alter or stop their pursuit." It's a judgment call no matter how you slice it or how particular the wording is. And because of that subjectivity, it's incumbent upon the QB to err on the side of caution.

We see QBs take on tacklers all the time, and everything's fair game when that happens, so there's clearly a point in the rules where a QB is just a dude running with the ball. A timely slide, regardless of its form, should be the only distinction between those two things.

If I'm an NFL linebacker, the understanding should be, "I am going to tackle the living shit out of you unless you tackle yourself." And tackling oneself should be clear. If the QB makes it a call with a razor-thin margin, his CTE is on him.

I wouldn't mind if there was a caveat to the rule that went something like, "Oh, and if during the current game you convincingly faked a dive/slide or going out of bounds, all bets are off, asshole. We will let you know when you've cashed in that chip. After that? Heads up, buttercup."

QB is the most important position on the team and also one of the most vulnerable to injury.

Agreed, but this is mostly an in-the-pocket perspective. It's different when they run. In the pocket, I'm all for reasonable restrictions on roughing the passer, and the current rules are mostly okay. They call a lot of close ones, and they f*** it up a fair amount, but protecting a QB who has to stand there and take a hit to get the ball out is important to the game. But even then, the design of the rule should be, "Hey, dude. If you REALLY don't want to get hit, you better get the ball out really early. Defenders are human beings. They can't do Neo shit."

Should be as simple as it is for kickers. Roughing the kicker, 15 yards and a 1st down. Running into the kicker, 5 yards and only a first down if the 5 yards gets you there.

And that's essentially what we have. Roughing the passer, and then late hits, which apply to any player getting hit late. That's as complicated as it should be.

 

[kicksavedave]

Shouldn't ya'all actually read the rule before offering suggestions?

Its already in there. (NFL rules for "down by contact)

1. when a runner declares himself down by:
   1. falling to the ground, or kneeling, and clearly making no immediate effort to advance.
   2. sliding feet-first on the ground. When a runner slides feet-first, the ball is dead the instant he touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet.
   3. Notes:
   4. Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact.
   5. A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is not a foul unless the defender makes forcible contact into the head or neck area of the runner with the helmet, shoulder, or forearm, or commits some other act that is unnecessary roughness.
   6. A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.

Basically, a little unavoidable contact is OK, but the forearm shiver to the head was already specifically prohibited regardless of the timing of the slide. Late slide, still no forearm/shoulder to the head allowed. Also says clearly if the QB waits too long, its on them, but that still doesn't permit a forearm to the head.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

I dont think it was a late slide. Trevor knew damn well where the 1st down was and going for it. It was still a bad hit.

 

[Jags]

Shouldn't ya'all actually read the rule before offering suggestions?

What fun would that be? And I'm pretty sure we were just talking about the rules in general, and how they're interpreted and enforced. Everyone agrees that what happened to Lawrence was really f***ed up. He did all the right things, the other guy did all the wrong things.

Why it turns into a conversation from time to time is refs getting it wrong, players taking advantage of leeway in ways that lead to more rules, and someone invoking the "Quarterbacks need to be protected at all costs because they are so important and so special and other warm fuzziness" argument.

The hit on Lawrence wasn't f***ed up because he's a special player at a special position that does special things. It was just dirty.

Get outta here with yer fancy book learnin. We don't need no steenkin rulebook.

 

[HTFN]

I think if a QB has time to hoist the ball above his head or give any other kind of "I'm going to slide" signal then he's already got plenty of time to avoid a hit. And anything initiated after the point where any nearby defender (seen or UNseen) might lower his helmet and lose sight of some body part of the QB won't work for logistical reasons.

As Jags said pretty well, it's about the timing and the inevitability of players pushing things right up to the limit (along with the speed and chaos involved).

Unless someone comes up with an ingenious way to slow down the game around QBs without ruining it, I just don't believe there's a "safe" way for a QB to scramble that allows him different treatment from everyone else. Either the QB is just like every other player once he leaves the pocket, or he wears 2 flags on his belt for defenders to pull.

I thought the point of the slide was to avoid a hit when otherwise dead to rights. What do some of the more immobile QBs do to exit the pocket without being completely f***ed if they don't have a way to give themselves up in the open field?

I guess they could start "lateraling" the ball out of bounds about 15 feet in the air and calling it a fumble with retained possession but that's ugly.

I’m not going to die on this hill because it’s some shit I made up last night while drinking but holding the ball up in submission is probably the safest way I can think of to proactively demonstrate removing yourself from the play. It doesn’t require a massive shift in body weight or change of levels, still gives you a lot of space to defend yourself, and once it’s up everyone is legally allowed to just stand and watch you either give up or blow the play dead and get flagged. There’s no way to fake it that couldn’t also be penalized because it’s wildly unnatural and hard to miss, and “fakes” just leave the ball out there for the taking anyway

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Maybe RG3 was ahead of his time never learning how to slide. lol

That dude would have his knees buckle and just fall down.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I thought the point of the slide was to avoid a hit when otherwise dead to rights. What do some of the more immobile QBs do to exit the pocket without being completely f***ed if they don't have a way to give themselves up in the open field?

I guess they could start "lateraling" the ball out of bounds about 15 feet in the air and calling it a fumble with retained possession but that's ugly.

I’m not going to die on this hill because it’s some shit I made up last night while drinking but holding the ball up in submission is probably the safest way I can think of to proactively demonstrate removing yourself from the play. It doesn’t require a massive shift in body weight or change of levels, still gives you a lot of space to defend yourself, and once it’s up everyone is legally allowed to just stand and watch you either give up or blow the play dead and get flagged. There’s no way to fake it that couldn’t also be penalized because it’s wildly unnatural and hard to miss, and “fakes” just leave the ball out there for the taking anyway

I just want to see someone with an AI tool make a little video clip showing in cartoon form, what your suggestion would look like…I think it would appear pretty funny….

In all seriousness, it would get shot down because it unnecessarily puts ball security at risk. Imagine the bloopers from dudes fumbling as they try to raise the ball above their heads while in motion lol…

 

[kicksavedave]

What fun would that be? And I'm pretty sure we were just talking about the rules in general, and how they're interpreted and enforced. Everyone agrees that what happened to Lawrence was really f***ed up. He did all the right things, the other guy did all the wrong things.

Why it turns into a conversation from time to time is refs getting it wrong, players taking advantage of leeway in ways that lead to more rules, and someone invoking the "Quarterbacks need to be protected at all costs because they are so important and so special and other warm fuzziness" argument.

The hit on Lawrence wasn't f***ed up because he's a special player at a special position that does special things. It was just dirty.

Get outta here with yer fancy book learnin. We don't need no steenkin rulebook.

Fair, and I wasn't directing anything at anyone specific, but I did see where a rule to "protect the QB but not if he slides too late" was proposed, but that's the one that's already in there.

Anyway, I think the three games was solid. Azeez is a dickhead and deserves a long time out. His history prior to that hit on TL is really dirty also.

 

[Ridley Simon]

What fun would that be? And I'm pretty sure we were just talking about the rules in general, and how they're interpreted and enforced. Everyone agrees that what happened to Lawrence was really f***ed up. He did all the right things, the other guy did all the wrong things.

Why it turns into a conversation from time to time is refs getting it wrong, players taking advantage of leeway in ways that lead to more rules, and someone invoking the "Quarterbacks need to be protected at all costs because they are so important and so special and other warm fuzziness" argument.

The hit on Lawrence wasn't f***ed up because he's a special player at a special position that does special things. It was just dirty.

Get outta here with yer fancy book learnin. We don't need no steenkin rulebook.

Yeah, DAVE.

Don’t be such a clownshow asshat autocrat, DAVE (I don’t even know what that means, but I enjoyed writing it, LOL)

 

[kicksavedave]

Yeah, DAVE.

Don’t be such a clownshow asshat autocrat, DAVE (I don’t even know what that means, but I enjoyed writing it, LOL)

 

[ynotcaps]

New guy in charge of next rename/rebrand...

Commanders hire Clouse as team's new president

The Washington Commanders' revamped power structure added yet another key element Tuesday when the team hired Mark Clouse, who has served as the president and CEO of The Campbell's Company since 2019, as their new team president.

www.espn.com

 

[HTFN]

I just want to see someone with an AI tool make a little video clip showing in cartoon form, what your suggestion would look like…I think it would appear pretty funny….

In all seriousness, it would get shot down because it unnecessarily puts ball security at risk. Imagine the bloopers from dudes fumbling as they try to raise the ball above their heads while in motion lol…

But that’s the point. If you’re remotely close enough to a defender that you can’t essentially do the Statue of Liberty celebration safely you already need to be down. If you can’t hold a ball you shouldn’t be a quarterback, so I’m not seeing a risk in the action itself. It’s something to take back that “extra yard” mentality.

It basically ensures that well before anyone is a threat to contact (and ball security) there’s already a broadcasted signal to give up on the play, and it strikes me as a safer way to signify that intent than sliding alone.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

But that’s the point. If you’re remotely close enough to a defender that you can’t essentially do the Statue of Liberty celebration safely you already need to be down. If you can’t hold a ball you shouldn’t be a quarterback, so I’m not seeing a risk in the action itself. It’s something to take back that “extra yard” mentality.

It basically ensures that well before anyone is a threat to contact (and ball security) there’s already a broadcasted signal to give up on the play, and it strikes me as a safer way to signify that intent than sliding alone.

It’s “unnatural” in terms of game type moves….but points for originality!

 

[HTFN]

It’s “unnatural” in terms of game type moves….but points for originality!

I also feel like that’s a point in favor, as it was kind of the original intention. There’s no pretending it’s something else and once you do it you’re locked in. Ball up, no hit, get down.

It’s something deliberately weird and non-competitive which I’m pretty sure is what the slide was intended to be.

 

[g00n]

Shouldn't ya'all actually read the rule before offering suggestions?

Its already in there. (NFL rules for "down by contact)



Basically, a little unavoidable contact is OK, but the forearm shiver to the head was already specifically prohibited regardless of the timing of the slide. Late slide, still no forearm/shoulder to the head allowed. Also says clearly if the QB waits too long, its on them, but that still doesn't permit a forearm to the head.

Oh I know the rule which is why I argued that it's impractical in enforcement and use by QBs.

It's just too hard to change direction sometimes, and as I said the QB is dropping his head to the level where defenders usually lower themselves for a hit. And he's doing it completely exposed instead of in a more aggressive posture with acceleration. It's a formula for injury.

IOW, players can already slide to show they're giving themselves up, so the rule is supposed to protect QBs from cheap shots when sliding. But QBs are using the slide like some kind of armor against contact and that's not how the game works.

And when a QB does slide marginally too late, and someone clobbers him because they couldn't stop, then TECHNICALLY the defender is not at fault, but how often do they get away with that? The refs are subject to the pressures of the league, fans, media, etc as well as the human tendency to punish someone who hurts someone else. So if a QB is plastered because he slid too late more often than not the end result is lose/lose....the defender is penalized and maybe fined, and the QB is headed for the blue tent.

So QBs who decide to run need to play more like the other guys who know how to get to the ground without being brained. QBs who can't do that or can't run need to get the ball out quicker.

I don't think any of that is new, it's just a summary of where I think this lands.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Roger Goodell must act to stop Patrick Mahomes from getting other QBs rocked on slides — FanSided

Texans linebacker Azeez Al-Shaair should be suspended for his dirty hit on Trevor Lawrence, but DeMeco Ryans has a point about quarterbacks trying to take advantage of the slide rule. Dec 02, 2024 Follow Fansided The hit Houston Texans linebacker Azeez Al-Shaair laid on Trevor Lawrence was the...

apple.news

On the subject…..btw, on First Take today, they were suggesting that DeMeco Ryan’s as an NFL head coach, sounding off in defense of Azeez before discipline came out, might have cost the player another game. That the league went “oh hell no, we cannot have a HC condone this.”

Most were expecting 2 games. Adding that 3rd was big.