OT: 2024 Washington Commanders off-season thread: change we can believe in!

[g00n]

I think this really distills down to two terms -- "Franchise QB" and "Franchise Player."

If an NFL team sticks with a quarterback for a long time, for good reason, and are making no effort to replace him during that time, they're a Franchise QB. A Franchise Player is, shockingly, a franchise's best player. You can be the Franchise QB without being the Franchise Player.

Dismissing Kirk as something less than a Franchise QB is pretty silly. His numbers are pretty stellar, both teams that let him go very much wanted to keep him. Last year was a perfect storm for him being let go -- that specific injury at that age with the ability to have that draft position in a deep, talented QB class. They made the smart choice, no question. But both teams -- the actual players on the field -- adored that guy, and both would have kept him if the circumstances were even slightly different.

So it has little to do with how many teams you play for. Plenty of truly great QBs have switched teams for various reasons, especially in the Cap/FA Era. It matters that your team wins, but not necessarily that you win it all. Plenty of truly great QBs never won a title or never made it to a title game. Being a Franchise QB is simply having a franchise keep you as their QB unquestionably for a long period of time.

Kirk is a great quarterback. The notion that he's just got a good agent and is only concerned with piling up stats is total nonsense. He's a passionate competitor, very talented at the position, and his class, character, humility, and leadership are exactly what you'd want them to be. He pissed off a lot of fans in DC, for sure. And these hot takes on him being unremarkable are sour grapes.

I know this isn't a popular opinion here, but in this case the definition is evident. Cousins is has clearly been a franchise quarterback for a long time. There's no interpretation required. That's simply what those two words mean when you use them together.

My interpretation stands as-is.

 

[John Price]

The line keeps moving down for Washington against the Giants

 

[Jags]

You’ll never convince a few of the anti-Cousins posters…..waste of time.

Totally agree, but this time around it's about the definition of a term that's pretty simply defined and requires zero interpretation. So when those anti-Cousins posters have that pointed out to them and they reply...

My interpretation stands as-is.

...you can plainly see that the fix is in; that they're burning a lot of calories reinterpreting reality because those grapes can't be un-soured. "I don't care for him, so he can't be that respectable thing. And if you squint just so and look at the facts through this very specific prism, you'll see that I'm right."

Meanwhile, if you stop an objective person on the street and ask them, they'll say, "Is he a franchise QB? You mean that guy that two franchises adored as their franchise QB for a decade? Um, yeah. And while we're at it, the sky is blue, up is up and down is down."

 

[ynotcaps]

Totally agree, but this time around it's about the definition of a term that's pretty simply defined and requires zero interpretation. So when those anti-Cousins posters have that pointed out to them and they reply...



...you can plainly see that the fix is in; that they're burning a lot of calories reinterpreting reality because those grapes can't be un-soured. "I don't care for him, so he can't be that respectable thing. And if you squint just so and look at the facts through this very specific prism, you'll see that I'm right."

Meanwhile, if you stop an objective person on the street and ask them, they'll say, "Is he a franchise QB? You mean that guy that two franchises adored as their franchise QB for a decade? Um, yeah. And while we're at it, the sky is blue, up is up and down is down."

I think you're stating as fact a definition that is not remotely settled. If there's one and only one interpretation of "Franchise QB," there would be definitive, published list of "Franchise QBs" that we could check and see if he's on. I think there's also some serious revisionist history in calling KC "adored" in both locations.

As I said, he's (maybe "was") a good-to-very-good QB. That doesn't make him a "Franchise QB." And that's not a knock. I'm also not a Kirk-hater or anti-Kirk guy -- I was glad when we picked him on that draft day, and gladder still when RGMe went down. But that doesn't mean I'm going to engage in revisionist history on the KC Experience.

 

[ynotcaps]

my point was you ignored/dismissed the mediocre team Maye played on and just kept harping on the numbers they put up

game 1 KK just seemed to try to get JD easy completions to try to build his confidence up and put a a decent stat line which is fine since this year it's more important to try to build confidence and develop them while Peters builds a better team but saying this i have to believe there were downfield throws JD showed made considering how weak T-Bays DB were

That is a ridiculously reductive review of my posts on JD vs. DM, but they're still out there so anyone can check the truth.

As for game 1, I agree the gameplan was to get him some confidence, but had nothing to do with getting him a stat-line. They wanted to put something together to let him be able to make quick decisions and get the ball out. Yes, TB's secondary was a shambles -- but you can't say in one breath that "he should have torn them up" and then in the next breath say "regardless of the fact that his OL gave him even less time to make a decision than the gameplan called for."

He had less time to throw that any other QB in week 1. To argue that that doesn't matter is not honest. Would I like him to have passed a few times rather than pull it and run? Yes, and I've said so. But I can't sit here and honestly say on a play-by-play the decision he should have made in 2 seconds.

I'm afraid this week may be an almost exact replay of week 1. The Giants also have a rag-tag secondary (more because of a lack of talent than TB's case, which was more injury-related), but they have a good DL which is going to give our OL big problems. Thibodaux and Burns are going to be Jayden's lap instantly -- we're going to have to run a lot more and hopefully be able to implement a good screen game.

(On the D side, I don't think D Jones will pick us apart the way Baker did, but he may match or top JD's rushing stats from week 1.)

 

[Bananas]

I think this really distills down to two terms -- "Franchise QB" and "Franchise Player."

If an NFL team sticks with a quarterback for a long time, for good reason, and are making no effort to replace him during that time, they're a Franchise QB. A Franchise Player is, shockingly, a franchise's best player. You can be the Franchise QB without being the Franchise Player.

Dismissing Kirk as something less than a Franchise QB is pretty silly. His numbers are pretty stellar, both teams that let him go very much wanted to keep him. Last year was a perfect storm for him being let go -- that specific injury at that age with the ability to have that draft position in a deep, talented QB class. They made the smart choice, no question. But both teams -- the actual players on the field -- adored that guy, and both would have kept him if the circumstances were even slightly different.

So it has little to do with how many teams you play for. Plenty of truly great QBs have switched teams for various reasons, especially in the Cap/FA Era. It matters that your team wins, but not necessarily that you win it all. Plenty of truly great QBs never won a title or never made it to a title game. Being a Franchise QB is simply having a franchise keep you as their QB unquestionably for a long period of time.

Kirk is a great quarterback. The notion that he's just got a good agent and is only concerned with piling up stats is total nonsense. He's a passionate competitor, very talented at the position, and his class, character, humility, and leadership are exactly what you'd want them to be. He pissed off a lot of fans in DC, for sure. And these hot takes on him being unremarkable are sour grapes.

I know this isn't a popular opinion here, but in this case the definition is evident. Cousins has clearly been a franchise quarterback for a long time. There's no interpretation required. That's simply what those two words mean when you use them together.

If you call him a Franchise QB, you’d still need to call him an unsuccessful Franchise QB - except where compiling stats and making money are concerned.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

If you call him a Franchise QB, you’d still need to call him an unsuccessful Franchise QB - except where compiling stats and making money are concerned.

Dan Marino was an unsuccessful “Franchise” QB, Luck, Moon, McNair, Rivers, the list goes on….

Only Kirk moving onto his 3rd team and his stints (as the starter) being short at each location keeps him from being labeled a “Franchise” QB for me..statistically he’ll end up with some of the greats….

The great unknown is who can figure out the puzzle around Cousins to win a Super Bowl? Surely there have been much less talented winners at QB…..he just needs his version of the 85 Bears, or 00 Ravens, all time great D and dominant running game…ATL is toying with this, Min just couldn’t pull it all together at one time…..

 

[bacchist]

How many of our QBs outperformed Cousins for any period of time since we fumbled him?

 

[Jags]

If you call him a Franchise QB, you’d still need to call him an unsuccessful Franchise QB - except where compiling stats and making money are concerned.

Fair enough. And by that metric, you'd have to say the same about all franchise quarterbacks that haven't won a title. Rivers, Fouts, McNabb, Tarkenton, Moon, Marino. There's a long list.

I'm not saying Cousins is right there with those guys, just that it's silly to say he wasn't a franchise QB. So silly that you really have to make these kinds of odd distinctions that don't even remove some of the best QBs ever from the conversation you're trying to have.

The sour grapes here has led to those types of departures from logic. And lots of people think that way. Elway was the king of "Couldn't Win The Big One" conversations until Denver finally put a respectable team around him. Same with Marino. And might you not be able to say the same about Cousins?

Last offseason after that "Quarterback" docuseries ran on Netflix, lots of people got their panties in a twist because Cousins came off so favorably. So there was an onslaught of "Can't Win The Big One" talk that labeled his as a Playoff Choker, many casually saying that he didn't have the icily dispassionate, killer demeanor of Joe Burrow. And at that moment in time, the truth was...

Those arguments just lack perspective, is all I'm saying. He played great for them, their D played for shit, and when reporters stuck a mic in his face, he took the heat because in addition to being a great QB, he's also the type of leader you'd want.

No, he's not the world's best anything and he has plenty of flaws. The arguments here over the years about keeping him in DC, is he worth X amount of money, and so on -- those were subjective arguments. This one isn't. The term has a very simple meaning. If you want to redefine it to mean something else so you can make a "This is MY truth" (which redefines truth, but whatever), go for it.

There's no need to move the goalposts so many times. They're heavy and awkward to carry around. You don't have to like the guy to concede that he's been pretty damn good at his job...

 

[g00n]

I guess nuance is worthless to some people, but somehow a million words are still needed.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Damn you all are trying to make Cousins a Hall of Famer now.

 

[Jags]

I guess nuance is worthless to some people, but somehow a million words are still needed.

Sure, nuance is what I'd need to believe a thing that is laughably false. You can't just concede that you have to distort definitions or exaggerate to reach this conclusion?

Damn you all are trying to make Cousins a Hall of Famer now.

Who is? I said he was a franchise quarterback for a decade that was pretty damn good at his job. Again, you've got to exaggerate to make this point.

Look, stat-wise, Cousins is maybe a small class above Tony Romo, another guy who didn't win shit that was absolutely a franchise quarterback. For the decade he was their guy, Dallas wasn't shopping for another. They were more than content with him being THE guy for the most valuable sports franchise on the planet. He wasn't their best player, but he was absolutely their franchise quarterback.

Cousins fits that bill at the very least. Quibbling about the semantics here isn't like disagreeing on the difference between "retool" and "rebuild" in sports -- terms that are nebulously defined to begin with. You only need the words "franchise" and "quarterback" to define this one.

 

[g00n]

Sure, nuance is what I'd need to believe a thing that is laughably false. You can't just concede that you have to distort definitions or exaggerate to reach this conclusion?

Seems more like you just don't like anyone failing to heap the right amount of praise on your boy. I don't really care and wasn't talking to you in the first place. I said this was a debatable topic with fluid definitions and you're being a snipey ass. So whatever.

 

[Beef Invictus]

At the risk of starting yet another discussion on Cousins (UGH). The original poster listed 4 yearly pro bowl and all pro players as “Franchise”.

Those 4 guys were named to 16 All Pro teams. That’s, a LOT.

Captain K has been to……zero.

He’s not at the same level, like at all, as those 4 LT’s.

Cousins was a tricky thing. He was good enough to win a SB if a team could build around him. Minnesota is Minnesota, though. When he went there, they had a great defense and tools on offense. Then they paid a shitload for him and didn't have the cap space for a while to keep all those other tools. Cousins isn't the guy to compensate for that, but was paid like he was.

If Minny had drafted him and signed him for the far cheaper long-term deal Washington was offered by him and rejected, I think that story plays out a lot differently. SB? Unsure. Closer to it? Definitely.

 

[Ajax1995]

Dan Marino was an unsuccessful “Franchise” QB, Luck, Moon, McNair, Rivers, the list goes on….

Success, IMO anyway, means taking your team to the playoffs, basically being a winner during the regular season at least.

Marino played in 18 playoff games, Rivers 12, Moon and McNair 10, and Luck, obviously in a shortened career, 8.

Cousins has played in 5.

 

[Beef Invictus]

For most of Cousins' tenure in Minnesota, their offense was top 10, peaking at 4th; that's a thing you need a good QB to consistently do. Their defense fell apart. Before he got there, they had a defense and no offense. After he got there, they could score and couldn't hold teams back. The eternal Vikings Cycle of Futility.

 

[g00n]

Success, IMO anyway, means taking your team to the playoffs, basically being a winner during the regular season at least.

Marino played in 18 playoff games, Rivers 12, Moon and McNair 10, and Luck, obviously in a shortened career, 8.

Cousins has played in 5.

2012 he wasn't even the starter.

He went with WFT one other year.

Then he went 2 years for 3 total games and 1 total win in his 6yrs in MIN.

-2023 he was hurt halfway through so hard to judge the team based on that.
-2022 was his best year, while the rest of the NFC Central was mid at best. They lost in the playoffs despite really good play from him, iirc.
-In 2021 the Bears and Lions sucked ass so the division was weak but MIN still was barely .500 and missed a WC (GB was on top).
-In 2020 an 8-8 CHI squad beat them out for a WC berth.
-2019 was a playoff year.
-2018 was his first as a Viking and they missed the playoffs even with GB/Rodgers not firing on all cylinders.


Again, Cousins is a statistically good QB on par with a Matt Ryan, or maybe a Joe Flacco. You can plug him in as your franchise QB but he's probably not going to put the team on his back and drive you to a championship. He's just not that guy and he's in his mid-30s. We've all been waiting for it.

Maybe it happens one year. Many QBs have careers dotted with playoff failures and just need a break.

tl'dr "franchise QB" seems relative, and maybe "elite" is more what we should be talking about, for whatever reason we're still talking about this

 

[EroCaps]

Daniels playing hero ball is sort of a thing. He wasn’t the problem but he still showed his college tendency of looking deep and then running a few times on tape with open teammates.

Whether or not Kingsbury can develop him will define several careers. I’m not sold yet.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Success, IMO anyway, means taking your team to the playoffs, basically being a winner during the regular season at least.

Marino played in 18 playoff games, Rivers 12, Moon and McNair 10, and Luck, obviously in a shortened career, 8.

Cousins has played in 5.

First half of a career (6 seasons) in DC under Snyder will do that for ya! Not a lot of opportunity early.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

2012 he wasn't even the starter.

He went with WFT one other year.

Then he went 2 years for 3 total games and 1 total win in his 6yrs in MIN.

-2023 he was hurt halfway through so hard to judge the team based on that.
-2022 was his best year, while the rest of the NFC Central was mid at best. They lost in the playoffs despite really good play from him, iirc.
-In 2021 the Bears and Lions sucked ass so the division was weak but MIN still was barely .500 and missed a WC (GB was on top).
-In 2020 an 8-8 CHI squad beat them out for a WC berth.
-2019 was a playoff year.
-2018 was his first as a Viking and they missed the playoffs even with GB/Rodgers not firing on all cylinders.


Again, Cousins is a statistically good QB on par with a Matt Ryan, or maybe a Joe Flacco. You can plug him in as your franchise QB but he's probably not going to put the team on his back and drive you to a championship. He's just not that guy and he's in his mid-30s. We've all been waiting for it.

Maybe it happens one year. Many QBs have careers dotted with playoff failures and just need a break.

tl'dr "franchise QB" seems relative, and maybe "elite" is more what we should be talking about, for whatever reason we're still talking about this

He’s not elite…..because Elite guys are Franchise guys, but not all franchise guys are elite.

Brunell was a franchise QB for Jacksonville….9 years as the starter, but he wasn’t elite.

Two different things and Cousins obviously isn’t elite.

 

[Ajax1995]

First half of a career (6 seasons) in DC under Snyder will do that for ya! Not a lot of opportunity early.

I was simply responding to your assertion that those other guys were not ‘successful’ QB’s.

Is Cousins’ comparative lack of success all his fault? Of course not, but it isn’t difficult to see that his accumulation of stats/money has not correlated with much team success. And honestly, I don’t think that is a coincidence.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I was simply responding to your assertion that those other guys were not ‘successful’ QB’s.

Is Cousins’ comparative lack of success all his fault? Of course not, but it isn’t difficult to see that his accumulation of stats/money has not correlated with much team success. And honestly, I don’t think that is a coincidence.

Well success is ultimately measured in Championship for QBs….at least for the greatest of the greats…

 

[John Price]

 

[g00n]

He’s not elite…..because Elite guys are Franchise guys, but not all franchise guys are elite.

Brunell was a franchise QB for Jacksonville….9 years as the starter, but he wasn’t elite.

Two different things and Cousins obviously isn’t elite.

Franchise guys dig in and are there for the long haul. You build your franchise with them slotted in their spot, or build around them. Hence the term.

Cousins has not been that guy. He was picked behind RG3. He came in later and played well enough to earn a lot of money from MIN and then had similar results in a similar number of years.

Franchise players tend to strike up internal relationships with the organizations that make them the face of the team, fanbase, and business. Cousins has made some commercials and just as many enemies among agents and front office personnel.

Teams don't usually jettison a "franchise" player at any position, in any sport, after 6 years. Cousins has walked twice. Some of that was due to the dysfunction of the Snyder regime, the first time. Not the second.

One team letting a "franchise" guy get away due to the price tag might happen. When it happens twice you probably have a mercenary instead of a "franchise" guy. Maybe a merc that smiles a lot and acts like Ned Flanders, but still a merc.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Franchise guys dig in and are there for the long haul. You build your franchise with them slotted in their spot, or build around them. Hence the term.

Cousins has not been that guy. He was picked behind RG3. He came in later and played well enough to earn a lot of money from MIN and then had similar results in a similar number of years.

Franchise players tend to strike up internal relationships with the organizations that make them the face of the team, fanbase, and business. Cousins has made some commercials and just as many enemies among agents and front office personnel.

Teams don't usually jettison a "franchise" player at any position, in any sport, after 6 years. Cousins has walked twice. Some of that was due to the dysfunction of the Snyder regime, the first time. Not the second.

One team letting a "franchise" guy get away due to the price tag might happen. When it happens twice you probably have a mercenary instead of a "franchise" guy. Maybe a merc that smiles a lot and acts like Ned Flanders, but still a merc.

I previously said he doesn’t qualify as a Franchise QB for me because of his shorter tenure as a starter at every stop. Cousins WOULD have been that here, but they F’ed that up.

Give me a guy with 7+ seasons as a starter in one place and that’s a franchise guy….a guy who brings stability to the position longterm is my definition, and yes, many many of those franchise guys are elite or at least right on the fringe which is where Cousins sits/sat IMO. One simply cannot hold onto that position longterm without producing….

Combine it all and Cousins qualifies for some people as a Franchise QB, and I think that’s also an ok position.