OT: 2024 Washington Commanders off-season thread: change we can believe in!

[ynotcaps]

I think if you back up and take a look at all the rookie QBs who started, it really seems that the shortened pre-season has really hurt. As someone stated earlier in the thread, previously the third PS game is the one where the starters get an entire half or 3 quarters to work, after the first 2 games have been used to build up to that. And the 4th game was bubble-fest where you only see the guys fighting for the last 3-5 spots and league-wide practice squad tryouts.

Now the first 2 games are ramp-ups, but instead of there being a pay-off in game 3, it goes straight to scrub-fest and the starters go 3 weeks without reps under fire: the week leading up to the final game, then the 2 weeks between the end of PS and week 1. Sure they get to practice, but that's not near as useful as game action against a real opponent.

 

[ynotcaps]

Think that ultimately depends on how you define a Franchise QB. To me, a Franchise QB is a guy who is good enough to be your consistent starter for an extended period of time (and not constantly looking for the next upgrade). Cousins has met that bar. From 2015 - 2023, over nine seasons, Cousins has had a traditional passer rating above 92, and his rating has been above 100 five of those nine seasons.

It's kind of like a star player versus a superstar player in the NFL. Cousins has pretty clearly been in the star category. I agree that he has not been a 'superstar' though he has been on the cusp a few times.

And I would argue that Cousins has been let go in his prime once. Allowing Cousins to walk at age 35, while recovering from a severe injury, is not letting a guy go in his prime.

Fair points, especially about not being in his prime when MIN let him go.

Agree that "franchise"-level is in the eye of the beholder. To me, "franchise" means great -- and Kirk is good, in his prime maybe very good, but not great.

 

[bacchist]

No QB discussion is complete without talking about RG3. He was not a franchise QB in the end. But he had all the tools and could have been the guy. We sacrificed a lot in order to get him, and it set us back a lot. But we were even arguably a more complete team. We were closer to being a contender and could take the hit. Today, though, we're clearly nowhere close to having a chance at a title. It's much less defensible.

 

[Babe Ruth]

Watching the tape on this one… Daniels shows more promise than red flags. The Bucs are probably division winners again He’s not going to miss dump offs like that for long. He avoided like 5 sacks on scrambles which actually helped him not take hits…

I thought Daniels had a good rookie debut. And even if he hadn't, so what.. rookies deserve time to develop in the NFL. I kinda feel a rookie needs at least half a season before a fair evaluation can start to formulate.
But that said, because of Daniels' build and instincts to run.. I have an ominous feeling he's going to be RG4. And I'm not gonna do the routine where I say "I hope I'm wrong". I'm tired of teams hoping to reinvent the NFL Qb position. Anytime a team goes all-in on running Qbs, I expect the worse, or at least a disappointing, shortened career.
Because basically with the recent exception of Mahomes, the pocket passing "statues", the Manning brothers, Brady, Aikman, Flacco, Foles, Brees, Stafford, etc still win the Stupor Bowls. Even tho the media kept predicting that RG3, Justin Fields, Vick, Cam Newton would revolutionize the position and win a bunch of Lombardis. Ron Jaworski even laughably forecast that Kaepernick would retire as the greatest ever..

 

[ynotcaps]

No QB discussion is complete without talking about RG3. He was not a franchise QB in the end. But he had all the tools and could have been the guy. We sacrificed a lot in order to get him, and it set us back a lot. But we were even arguably a more complete team. We were closer to being a contender and could take the hit. Today, though, we're clearly nowhere close to having a chance at a title. It's much less defensible.

We thought he did, but I think it's been pretty well-established that he was a one-read-only thrower. Once his legs were taken away he was unable to operate as a more traditionally, stationary QB because he couldn't function as a processor.

But at least he did have one primo characteristic, regardless of how short he had it. The Panthers look completely ****ed with Bryce Young, who can't read defenses, can't see his receivers over his O-line and can't make throws. For the sake of their fans, I hope nobody in the league or the networks (esp. CBS) gets cute and decides to feed Texans games to Charlotte as an AFC "home market." That would be cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[qc14]

Because basically with the recent exception of Mahomes, the pocket passing "statues", the Manning brothers, Brady, Aikman, Flacco, Foles, Brees, Stafford, etc still win the Stupor Bowls. Even tho the media kept predicting that RG3, Justin Fields, Vick, Cam Newton would revolutionize the position and win a bunch of Lombardis. Ron Jaworski even laughably forecast that Kaepernick would retire as the greatest ever..

I mean it's easy to say that when Mahomes and Brady -- the two best players in the history of the sport -- have combined for 6/8 and 7/10 of the last SBs.

All of the best QBs in the league now are able to do both. Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Hurts, even guys like Stroud, Burrow, Baker, Tua, Purdy are all pretty mobile and can run.

I also don't know anyone could think that Newton and Vick didn't revolutionize the position. We all saw what Rivera looked like when he didn't have Newton basically single-handedly dragging the team to a SB. We should thank our lucky stars if JD's career gets even close to a Vick or Newton.

I can't believe we're still having these debates over "running quarterbacks" in 2024

 

[qc14]

And with the RG3 debates ... I still stand by the fact that the biggest reason he didn't have the career everyone thought he would after that rookie season is because Shanahan was an awful coach and leader who repeatedly put him on the field when he clearly was medically unfit to play. We *hopefully* should not have issues like that anymore.

 

[ynotcaps]

And with the RG3 debates ... I still stand by the fact that the biggest reason he didn't have the career everyone thought he would after that rookie season is because Shanahan was an awful coach and leader who repeatedly put him on the field when he clearly was medically unfit to play. We *hopefully* should not have issues like that anymore.

If JD gets injured -- even borderline, like a McCaffrey situation -- I believe they'll sit him. They're clearly not playing for anything this year and with so much riding on him -- it's the first real year of the new ownership regime with their chosen GM and coaching staff, they need to show that the franchise has changed -- I think they're smart enough to realize they'd be better served to let him sit and heal while MM or Driskell help us improve our draft position so we can add more pieces to help him.

(The upside to having between low and no expectations for team success.)

 

[sycamore]

All of the best QBs in the league now are able to do both. Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Hurts, even guys like Stroud, Burrow, Baker, Tua, Purdy are all pretty mobile and can run.

Please. When that guy runs, its for his life, because his O-Line has broken down, again, not because he's some great inherent scrambler.

 

[Roric]

If I have to watch Daniel Jones run all over us again I am going to turn into the Joker.

 

[ynotcaps]

Oh, I think "if" has already left the building...

 

[Bananas]

Hmm. So our Super Bowl winning QB just said we’ve had 43 different QBs since he left, and you cannot have success without filling the position long term, and we’ve got the second pick in the draft in a deep QB class?

Let’s draft an offensive lineman!!!

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

So if somehow we are top draft pick team again, It would be a good year to trade back now that we have a QB and get more O line help and future picks.

 

[usiel]

So if somehow we are top draft pick team again, It would be a good year to trade back now that we have a QB and get more O line help and future picks.

Looking like 5 OLs in the first round atm for the 2025 draft.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I would have picked an OL instead of Forbes

And instead of Davis. And instead of Dotson. And…..

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Tankathon has #2 pick now. I would totally try to pull a bears and move back to around 10 for some extra picks.

The Giants offered a good amount for the #2 pick last season. I dont see why those offers would be gone unless they finish higher in the tank games this season.

 

[hotpaws]

Find the quote where I said that. (You won't.) I said he played with great talent but unlike your and others' argument, it wasn't just that they made him better, he made them better, too.

But back to the subject: how did JD's performance compare to the other QBs who weren't under the gun within 2 seconds of the snap?

my point was you ignored/dismissed the mediocre team Maye played on and just kept harping on the numbers they put up

game 1 KK just seemed to try to get JD easy completions to try to build his confidence up and put a a decent stat line which is fine since this year it's more important to try to build confidence and develop them while Peters builds a better team but saying this i have to believe there were downfield throws JD showed made considering how weak T-Bays DB were

 

[usiel]

Tankathon has #2 pick now. I would totally try to pull a bears and move back to around 10 for some extra picks.

The Giants offered a good amount for the #2 pick last season. I dont see why those offers would be gone unless they finish higher in the tank games this season.

Its early but yeah I'd be down with trading down in the first and gather more draft assets.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

I dont want to be to mean after 1 game but that was some awful coaching. At no point in that game he tried to win. He would just run the ball every play and waste clock to shorten the game. It was a loser way to call the game. Hes another Ron hopefully we get someone better.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Kirk Cousins. The fact that we fumbled him doesn't mean he wasn't a legit franchise QB.

Oh come now. Captain Kirk was a good starter. Franchise? I wouldn’t put him above Joey T or Rypien (or Doug Williams, but his best “years” were in Tampa — he just had his best glory w Mr Gibbs).

Kirk hasn’t been a top 10 QB in any year (ok, maybe 1?).

If he’s a Franchise QB, then I’m a burgeoning Champions Tour golfer — at the youthful age of 55.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Think that ultimately depends on how you define a Franchise QB. To me, a Franchise QB is a guy who is good enough to be your consistent starter for an extended period of time (and not constantly looking for the next upgrade). Cousins has met that bar. From 2015 - 2023, over nine seasons, Cousins has had a traditional passer rating above 92, and his rating has been above 100 five of those nine seasons.

It's kind of like a star player versus a superstar player in the NFL. Cousins has pretty clearly been in the star category. I agree that he has not been a 'superstar' though he has been on the cusp a few times.

And I would argue that Cousins has been let go in his prime once. Allowing Cousins to walk at age 35, while recovering from a severe injury, is not letting a guy go in his prime.

At the risk of starting yet another discussion on Cousins (UGH). The original poster listed 4 yearly pro bowl and all pro players as “Franchise”.

Those 4 guys were named to 16 All Pro teams. That’s, a LOT.

Captain K has been to……zero.

He’s not at the same level, like at all, as those 4 LT’s.

 

[bacchist]

Oh come now. Captain Kirk was a good starter. Franchise? I wouldn’t put him above Joey T or Rypien (or Doug Williams, but his best “years” were in Tampa — he just had his best glory w Mr Gibbs).

Kirk hasn’t been a top 10 QB in any year (ok, maybe 1?).

If he’s a Franchise QB, then I’m a burgeoning Champions Tour golfer — at the youthful age of 55.

I guess it's subjective at this point, but when he retires he will be in the top 20 all time in all the QB stats (yards, touchdowns, completion %, quarterback rating, int/attempt, game winning drives, 4th quarter comebacks, etc)

 

[g00n]

Oh come now. Captain Kirk was a good starter. Franchise? I wouldn’t put him above Joey T or Rypien (or Doug Williams, but his best “years” were in Tampa — he just had his best glory w Mr Gibbs).

Kirk hasn’t been a top 10 QB in any year (ok, maybe 1?).

If he’s a Franchise QB, then I’m a burgeoning Champions Tour golfer — at the youthful age of 55.

Franchise QBs usually don't get moved from their original team while still in their near-prime (there are exceptions like Brees and Peyton) because they're undeniably pre-HOF, and usually don't have consistently mediocre W/L seasons their entire career.

This is a decent article and of course the lists can be debated:

What exactly is a ‘franchise quarterback’?

It’s something that is hard to define, but easy to recognize after the fact.

www.milehighreport.com

Cousins has a great agent and PR and figured out how to put up money making stats.

He accumulates a lot of yards per game and is in fact 11th all time in that category. But almost the entire list is now populated by current or recent QBs because the league has changed so much to emphasize passing (Dan Marino is 20th at 253yds/g, for example).

Maybe the best comparable is Matt Ryan, ironically also of the Falcons. Ryan spent 15 years in ATL (Cousins has 6 in DC and 6 in MIN), and like many other franchise QBs spent a year somewhere else trying to hang on to his career.

Ryan was pretty clearly THEIR franchise QB for that entire time. His stats are only slightly below Cousins in many categories and slightly higher in others (like yds/g). They seem similar in playing style, and have virtually identical career win % (about 53%).

So it's complicated. He'd be a 'franchise QB' on the Matt Ryan level, but not Brady or any of the other Tier 1 QBs.

The main confounder is he was getting Tier 1 money and that eventually pushed all the real Tier 1 guys even higher, making his own contract look more reasonable.

Schrodinger's Contract.

 

[Jags]

I think this really distills down to two terms -- "Franchise QB" and "Franchise Player."

If an NFL team sticks with a quarterback for a long time, for good reason, and are making no effort to replace him during that time, they're a Franchise QB. A Franchise Player is, shockingly, a franchise's best player. You can be the Franchise QB without being the Franchise Player.

Dismissing Kirk as something less than a Franchise QB is pretty silly. His numbers are pretty stellar, both teams that let him go very much wanted to keep him. Last year was a perfect storm for him being let go -- that specific injury at that age with the ability to have that draft position in a deep, talented QB class. They made the smart choice, no question. But both teams -- the actual players on the field -- adored that guy, and both would have kept him if the circumstances were even slightly different.

So it has little to do with how many teams you play for. Plenty of truly great QBs have switched teams for various reasons, especially in the Cap/FA Era. It matters that your team wins, but not necessarily that you win it all. Plenty of truly great QBs never won a title or never made it to a title game. Being a Franchise QB is simply having a franchise keep you as their QB unquestionably for a long period of time.

Kirk is a great quarterback. The notion that he's just got a good agent and is only concerned with piling up stats is total nonsense. He's a passionate competitor, very talented at the position, and his class, character, humility, and leadership are exactly what you'd want them to be. He pissed off a lot of fans in DC, for sure. And these hot takes on him being unremarkable are sour grapes.

I know this isn't a popular opinion here, but in this case the definition is evident. Cousins has clearly been a franchise quarterback for a long time. There's no interpretation required. That's simply what those two words mean when you use them together.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

You’ll never convince a few of the anti-Cousins posters…..waste of time.