Blue Jays GDT: 2024 v6 | Mon, Sept 9 | vs NYM | 7pm ET/4pm PT | Megill vs Burr/Bullpen

[MK78]

I kind of hate watching Kirk's at bats.

I kind of hate watching Kirk's anything.

 

[MS]

I still don't see how his MLB play against righties should dictate how much playing time he gets against lefties. He's always struggled against lefties in the minors and he has a 38 wRC+ against them in the majors this year. He's been excellent overall this year, and he's definitely earned the opportunity to hit every day... against righties.

Ultimately it doesn't matter much at this point of the season, but I find it hard to say that Horwitz deserves to hit lefties when he's never done it and hasn't done it this year.

Horwitz has played well for 2 months. He’s been the 2nd best hitter on the team this year. He’s put himself in the position where he’s going to be a key roster player for next year. It’s important to give him reps in all kinds of situations to see what exactly we have and where he fits next year. And again, if he’s a guy the club believes in, they should damned well be giving him these ABs when they have the opportunity to as opposed to saying, ‘oh, just a platoon player’ and putting an artificial ceiling on what his potential could be.

It’s a totally different situation than a guy who has been in MLB for 2 days.

 

[Blitzkrug]

I kind of hate watching Kirk's anything.

I'm not usually one to pile on somebody for their appearance, but i'm like 99% sure Kirk runs faster to the fridge than he does first base on a groundball.

 

[Cloned]

Hopefully Bo can fix his swing like Vladdy did.

 

[PanniniClaus]

Great series

 

[Discoverer]

Horwitz has played well for 2 months. He’s been the 2nd best hitter on the team this year. He’s put himself in the position where he’s going to be a key roster player for next year. It’s important to give him reps in all kinds of situations to see what exactly we have and where he fits next year. And again, if he’s a guy the club believes in, they should damned well be giving him these ABs when they have the opportunity to as opposed to saying, ‘oh, just a platoon player’ and putting an artificial ceiling on what his potential could be.

It’s a totally different situation than a guy who has been in MLB for 2 days.

I don't really care that they had Horwitz in over Wagner. Wagner has a much better minor league track record against lefties, but ultimately it doesn't really matter much.

I just don't see how it's an "artificial" ceiling when he's 26 years old and has never been good against lefties in the minors or majors.

He has a clear and longstanding weakness and there's nothing wrong with that. As far as I'm concerned it underscores how we might be underestimating his bat against righties: a 123 wRC+ overall is really good, but the 141 against righties is a middle-of-the-order bat on any team in the league.

 

[LaP]

I'm not usually one to pile on somebody for their appearance, but i'm like 99% sure Kirk runs faster to the fridge than he does first base on a groundball.

I was literally shouting at the television at midnight yesterday when he did not advance on that wild pitch. Brad Fullmer would have been stading at 2nd before the catcher would have got the ball. Or maybe it was Brand Wilkerson anyway one of those two was very good at advancing on wild pitches and he would have been standing at 2nd.

 

[MS]

I don't really care that they had Horwitz in over Wagner. Wagner has a much better minor league track record against lefties, but ultimately it doesn't really matter much.

I just don't see how it's an "artificial" ceiling when he's 26 years old and has never been good against lefties in the minors or majors.

He has a clear and longstanding weakness and there's nothing wrong with that. As far as I'm concerned it underscores how we might be underestimating his bat against righties: a 123 wRC+ overall is really good, but the 141 against righties is a middle-of-the-order bat on any team in the league.

Again, all of this makes sense if we were in a playoff race. In that situation I wouldn’t be giving him those ABs either.

But this is garbage time. This is a time when - universally, in all sports - you give young players opportunities in different situations to see what they’re capable of and improve on their weaknesses. In the NHL it’s when you give different guys looks on special teams, give young skill players some more defensive looks.

This is what they’re doing with Horwitz. I don’t understand at all why people are getting upset about it or criticizing it.

The other thing about Horwitz is that his approach against LHP has been very good. His K:BB numbers are excellent, he doesn’t look overmatched, he’s just struggling to generate power. This is probably why they’re optimistic they’ll be able to unlock something eventually.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I was literally shouting at the television at midnight yesterday when he did not advance on that wild pitch. Brad Fullmer would have been stading at 2nd before the catcher would have got the ball. Or maybe it was Brand Wilkerson anyway one of those two was very good at advancing on wild pitches and he would have been standing at 2nd.

It's pretty clear they need another catcher. Kirk is not it. Good backup, though.

 

[Discoverer]

Again, all of this makes sense if we were in a playoff race. In that situation I wouldn’t be giving him those ABs either.

But this is garbage time. This is a time when - universally, in all sports - you give young players opportunities in different situations to see what they’re capable of and improve on their weaknesses. In the NHL it’s when you give different guys looks on special teams, give young skill players some more defensive looks.

This is what they’re doing with Horwitz. I don’t understand at all why people are getting upset about it or criticizing it.

The other thing about Horwitz is that his approach against LHP has been very good. His K:BB numbers are excellent, he doesn’t look overmatched, he’s just struggling to generate power. This is probably why they’re optimistic they’ll be able to unlock something eventually.

I'm not upset about it and I'm not criticizing it. Ultimately it's a few at bats to a younger guy when they're out of the race. No big deal.

I do think it's an interesting discussion, though. I just don't see any evidence that Horwitz will be more than a big-side platoon guy, and I expect him to be bad enough against lefties that it actively detracts from his value (as it has to this point).

My preference would be to see Wagner in there (since he's actually hit lefties well in the minors) or Berroa (who has a spotty track-record, but he's wrecked them this year). Even Loperfido has weird reverse splits most of his minor league career. Again, this isn't a complaint since it's one game and doesn't really make a difference, but I think seeing what Wagner and Loperfido can do is at least as important as Horwitz.

 

[metafour]

It's pretty clear they need another catcher. Kirk is not it. Good backup, though.

You realize that he is 16th in the league among catchers at 1.4 fWAR, despite playing only 69 games, correct?

Since May 5th he is even hitting for a 92 wRC+...barely below league average, while producing elite defense.

This is still easily a starting caliber catcher. He has also been one of the "unluckiest" hitters in baseball this season per Statcast (expected wOBA of .331 versus actual wOBA of .280).

 

[PanniniClaus]

You realize that he is 16th in the league among catchers at 1.4 fWAR, despite playing only 69 games, correct?

Since May 5th he is even hitting for a 92 wRC+...barely below league average, while producing elite defense.

This is still easily a starting caliber catcher. He has also been one of the "unluckiest" hitters in baseball this season per Statcast (expected wOBA of .331 versus actual wOBA of .280).

I'm willing to give him more rope.

 

[MK78]

I'm willing to give him more rope.

I just dont think he gets any better. not with that body type, it just wont age well. he already cant catch on two knees, he has to put one knee down, which limits his mobility side to side. Janssen was way more versatile in this aspect, he could get to more wild pitches.

 

[Discoverer]

I just dont think he gets any better. not with that body type, it just wont age well. he already cant catch on two knees, he has to put one knee down, which limits his mobility side to side. Janssen was way more versatile in this aspect, he could get to more wild pitches.

Like a lot of catchers these days, Kirk often catches from one knee because it helps him frame pitches at the bottom of the zone. Buck's been complaining about it since long before Kirk made the majors.

Over the last three years, Kirk is literally the best catcher in the league in terms of preventing passed balls and wild pitches. Jansen is up there too, but it's weird to worry about the mobility of a catcher whose quickness behind the plate is one of his major strengths.

This is a good example of evaluating a player purely on his body type rather than what he actually does on the field.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Like a lot of catchers these days, Kirk often catches from one knee because it helps him frame pitches at the bottom of the zone. Buck's been complaining about it since long before Kirk made the majors.

Over the last three years, Kirk is literally the best catcher in the league in terms of preventing passed balls and wild pitches. Jansen is up there too, but it's weird to worry about the mobility of a catcher whose quickness behind the plate is one of his major strengths.

This is a good example of evaluating a player purely on his body type rather than what he actually does on the field.

Is it fair to ask if it's quickness, or if Kirk just.....covers more area back there?

Also, as a position player who is expected to produce at the plate, it's definitely fair to point out how Kirk's mobility - or lack thereof - has got him in some trouble on the basepaths.

He doesn't strike me as especially speedy, although I've heard he's still one of the better pitch framers in baseball. Hopefully with the implementation of robot umps or whatever they call it, though, pitch framing will die out completely. Always considered it a bit of a cheat, personally.

 

[Discoverer]

Is it fair to ask if it's quickness, or if Kirk just.....covers more area back there?

Also, as a position player who is expected to produce at the plate, it's definitely fair to point out how Kirk's mobility - or lack thereof - has got him in some trouble on the basepaths.

He doesn't strike me as especially speedy, although I've heard he's still one of the better pitch framers in baseball. Hopefully with the implementation of robot umps or whatever they call it, though, pitch framing will die out completely. Always considered it a bit of a cheat, personally.

Complaining about his size and how it affects his baserunning is completely legitimate. He's very slow and it often hurts the team.

Complaining about how it affects his defense is dumb because he's in the conversation for the best defensive catcher in baseball.

 

[phillipmike]

Handicapping the Juan Soto sweepstakes: Where Yankees, Mets stand

Everything’s going great for Juan Soto in the Bronx, as Soto is putting together yet another MVP-type season before adoring, often sellout crowds.

nypost.com

5. Jays​

They tried for Soto in trade and “owe” fans.

Odds: 25-1

 

[MS]

I'm not upset about it and I'm not criticizing it. Ultimately it's a few at bats to a younger guy when they're out of the race. No big deal.

I do think it's an interesting discussion, though. I just don't see any evidence that Horwitz will be more than a big-side platoon guy, and I expect him to be bad enough against lefties that it actively detracts from his value (as it has to this point).

My preference would be to see Wagner in there (since he's actually hit lefties well in the minors) or Berroa (who has a spotty track-record, but he's wrecked them this year). Even Loperfido has weird reverse splits most of his minor league career. Again, this isn't a complaint since it's one game and doesn't really make a difference, but I think seeing what Wagner and Loperfido can do is at least as important as Horwitz.

But again : Horwitz has been in MLB and performed for two months. He's working with the coaches every day and doing what they're asking and performing at a high level. Fans love doing things off spreadsheets but in that situation you don't bypass the guy who has been performing in a big sample size to give ABs to a guy who has been around for 2 days. Or Loperfido who has been a mess.

Furthermore, they probably had a plan for Horwitz and communicated that to him about what sort of ABs he'd be getting and what sort of opportunities he'd be getting for the rest of the season. And when you make plans, you follow through on them. You don't start chasing squirrels based on an 8 AB sample size from another player.

If Wagner continues to hit well, he'll get some of these ABs before the end of the season. But right now, Horwitz is a guy who has thrust himself into a position as a key player for next year and he's who they're going to invest ABs in. And rightly so.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Handicapping the Juan Soto sweepstakes: Where Yankees, Mets stand

Everything’s going great for Juan Soto in the Bronx, as Soto is putting together yet another MVP-type season before adoring, often sellout crowds.

nypost.com

Cashman/Steinbrenner would be stupid to let him walk. He's been a massive boon hitting in front of Judge, who was already a scary AB to face. Not to mention him hitting at Yankee Stadium is almost unfair.

Just pay him what he wants and reap the rewards.

 

[Discoverer]

But again : Horwitz has been in MLB and performed for two months. He's working with the coaches every day and doing what they're asking and performing at a high level. Fans love doing things off spreadsheets but in that situation you don't bypass the guy who has been performing in a big sample size to give ABs to a guy who has been around for 2 days. Or Loperfido who has been a mess.

Furthermore, they probably had a plan for Horwitz and communicated that to him about what sort of ABs he'd be getting and what sort of opportunities he'd be getting for the rest of the season. And when you make plans, you follow through on them. You don't start chasing squirrels based on an 8 AB sample size from another player.

If Wagner continues to hit well, he'll get some of these ABs before the end of the season. But right now, Horwitz is a guy who has thrust himself into a position as a key player for next year and he's who they're going to invest ABs in. And rightly so.

Again: Horwitz has been in MLB and performed for two months against right-handed pitching. For a lot of players, and specifically for Horwitz over both his major and minor league career, that hasn't translated to the opposite split, so I don't believe that justifies giving him playing time against lefties. He's performed well at 2B, but that doesn't mean I want him to try SS now and then to see if he can handle it.

My thoughts on Wagner are primarily based on his minor league track record, not his first two games. I would also argue that, while Horwitz has basically cemented a spot as a key member of the lineup for next year, finding out what other guys are capable of is more important.

 

[MS]

Again: Horwitz has been in MLB and performed for two months against right-handed pitching. For a lot of players, and specifically for Horwitz over both his major and minor league career, that hasn't translated to the opposite split, so I don't believe that justifies giving him playing time against lefties. He's performed well at 2B, but that doesn't mean I want him to try SS now and then to see if he can handle it.

My thoughts on Wagner are primarily based on his minor league track record, not his first two games. I would also argue that, while Horwitz has basically cemented a spot as a key member of the lineup for next year, finding out what other guys are capable of is more important.

When a rookie performs that well against RHP, teams are going to invest ABs in him to see whether he can translate that to being a full-time player. This is elemental. This is literally what every team in MLB would be doing with the same player in the same situation.

Horwitz is above Wagner in the pecking order until proven otherwise. Minor league stats don't matter nearly as much as the fact that Horwitz has played himself into being a key name for next season and Wagner has not.

And again, they would have had a plan in place for Horwitz and you don't chase squirrels based on 2 games from another player.

____________

These Wrigleyville Cubs uniforms are an abomination. Good god.

 

[TMLeafer]

Damn AppleTV

 

[Discoverer]

 

[MS]

I've said this before, but for all the criticism Buck gets about George Brett, anti-analytics, 'back in my day' etc. the discussion on Jays telecasts about what the pitcher/catcher are trying to do so set up the batter and what the batter is trying to do to adjust is second-to-none in any broadcast I've seen.

We're in the 2nd inning of this game and the Apple TV guys have simply not mentioned any of this stuff. They're just rambling on about general baseball stuff for the most part and only talk about the actual game if there's a hit or an out.

 

[Discoverer]

I've said this before, but for all the criticism Buck gets about George Brett, anti-analytics, 'back in my day' etc. the discussion on Jays telecasts about what the pitcher/catcher are trying to do so set up the batter and what the batter is trying to do to adjust is second-to-none in any broadcast I've seen.

We're in the 2nd inning of this game and the Apple TV guys have simply not mentioned any of this stuff. They're just rambling on about general baseball stuff for the most part and only talk about the actual game if there's a hit or an out.

Yeah, Buck has the knowledge and experience to be one of the best in the business. I think it makes the other stuff that much more frustrating because I really appreciate the in-game analysis, but he just can't shut up about the rest of it.