Olympics: Olympic Boxing

[Albatros]

Again why not let the female athletes decide that for their particular sports? Canada already sent a trans archer to the Olympics back in Tokyo to compete with the women and it made no difference and I don't think anyone really complained because that's a sport that requires skill more than anything.

Would a trans/intersex etc. athlete make a difference in table tennis or badminton? Possibly, but it would require that athlete to be just as skilled as the other female athletes because you can't bash your way through the opposition with physical strength. How about for more physical sports like swimming or many track and field events? There I think it could make a more significant difference because those are sports that rely heavily on the physical more than just skill.

So why not allow female athletes from different sports to decide based on whether or not it significantly affects them and the integrity and fairness of their sport?

Because that's not how sports are regulated. As said, if someone wants it to be then they can freely establish their own federation based on such principles and ultimately its success will determine how widely recognized it'll be. Currently there's no international federation recognized by the IOC so the opening is there.

 

[GQS]

You’re making it out like this is some David vs. Goliath situation when we’re talking about someone who doesn’t even have an amazing record as a boxer. Having an advantage (and let’s be clear, there’s no official determination here that there is an advantage other than a corrupt organizational head talking to media) automatically unfair nor does it mean other women can’t compete. The sob story of women dedicating their lives to be the best is no different than the women who do so and fail to make the Olympics in the first place.

It depends on the sport. As I said above Canada sent a trans archer to the Tokyo games to compete with the female archers and they faired OK, but nothing great. Why? Because that's a skill sport where physical strength doesn't matter much. In boxing it can make a difference if the athlete is skilled and can put their potential strength advantage to good use. And in other sports like track and field events, it can make a difference because those sports rely heavily on the physical aspects just as much if not more than the skill aspect.

Also women dedicating their lives to their sport and falling short of milestones like competing in the Olympics is OK because they're losing out to OTHER FEMALES and not persons who may or may not be female or may only have some aspects of being female or something else. Seems like those in charge don't know what to do with them so they throw them in with the females which can be a problem. No one would have a problem if they were competing with the men.

 

[GKJ]

Trans/intersex and others have their rights, but so does everyone else and the rights of the few should rarely if ever be more important that the rights of the many which unfortunately happens all too often in our society these days.

Female athletes should be able to compete fairly amongst each other and it should be up to them as to what they believe is fair and just and what's not for their particular sports. As I said in another post, Canada already sent a trans archer to compete at the Tokyo games and the impact was almost nil because archery requires skill more than anything else. Allowing a trans/intersex athlete to compete in swimming or many track and field events is vastly different because in those events the physical makeup of the athlete manners significantly more and can have a significant impact on results. So for those sports we need to be more careful with the decisions we make.

Who is the one that gets to determine which sports have the appropriate levels of skill vis a vis strength? The medals aren’t extra-gold based on the sport.

Moreover, who is the one who decides the level that makes someone biologically woman enough to compete against other women? This isn’t a transgender athlete, but it’s not stopping people from claiming she is transgender (or actually male) and now we have others who think maybe we should double check to make sure people like Katie Ledecky, just to be sure she’s not really biologically male - regardless of what ones definition of that may be.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

Remember when Spock said 'The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few'? In the west we've completely thrown that out the window where even the needs of an extreme few outweigh the needs of the many all in the name of 'inclusion and tolerance' with practically no limits.

Citing a fictional paragon of logic to support a logical fallacy is certainly a choice.

 

[TaLoN]

I want to apologise to Khelif - Italian boxer Carini

Angela Carini says she "wants to apologise" to Algerian boxer Imane Khelif after there was no handshake at the end of their Olympic fight.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Elon Musk’s twitter has done irreparable damage.

 

[Regal]

It depends on the sport. As I said above Canada sent a trans archer to the Tokyo games to compete with the female archers and they faired OK, but nothing great. Why? Because that's a skill sport where physical strength doesn't matter much. In boxing it can make a difference if the athlete is skilled and can put their potential strength advantage to good use. And in other sports like track and field events, it can make a difference because those sports rely heavily on the physical aspects just as much if not more than the skill aspect.

Also women dedicating their lives to their sport and falling short of milestones like competing in the Olympics is OK because they're losing out to OTHER FEMALES and not persons who may or may not be female or may only have some aspects of being female or something else. Seems like those in charge don't know what to do with them so they throw them in with the females which can be a problem. No one would have a problem if they were competing with the men.

Your entire argument is based on othering these women and claiming they aren’t women because they’re masculine presenting and it’s nonsense. I’d bet if Imane looked like a bikini model and had the exact same biological makeup you wouldn’t feel the same way. Now, perhaps there are biological aspects for competition where things do become unfair and I’m not going to pretend to be an expert in these areas. I do think it becomes a very dangerous game when people start witch hunting who the “real women” are though. This is a very different scenario than someone who has gone through male puberty and transitioned (though that has its own discussion).

In terms of Imane, we have nothing but hearsay, a “failed gender test” by a corrupt organization, and an opponent who cried and claimed “it was the hardest I was hit” to suggest she shouldn’t be allowed to compete, and multiple losses to women in the past, multiple competitions where she didn’t fail a gender test (including the World Championships under the IBA the year prior to her failed test), and that same opponent now saying she was just angry in the moment, that suggest she doesn’t have an unfair advantage.

 

[TheBeard]

All those female athletes who dedicate their lives, time and resources to becoming the best they can be shouldn't be forced to compete with a few people who might have an unfair advantage

I could practice basketball 24/7 my entire life and I’ll never be able to beat a guy who is 2 feet taller than me.

I really like the Paris games so far. Awesome venues, very well run and organized, great crowds turning out for the majority of events. Very entertaining to watch. Still not a huge fan of the opening ceremony. Some good parts, some not so good parts and it was a SJWs wet dream where they crammed as much DEI into it as they possibly could to make sure no one felt left out and under represented.

You lost me at DEI. You mean inclusive?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Elon Musk’s twitter has done irreparable damage.

It was always a cesspool of racism and hate and now they don't need to hide it since it's not moderated at all. So all the trans hate, LGBTQ hate, Racism, etc is free to be posted and liked because Elon also hid likes so racists that like other racist tweets don't get outed anymore.

At least the Italian Boxer feels sorry for her reaction and is showing respect to the boxer. Now if everyone else can stop being such hateful f***ing losers....

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If you want to risk being cancelled and having your career ruined, then its difficult to speak up unless alot of athletes do so at the same time. Just look at Lynsey Sharp who was a runner in that 800m race with Melissa Bishop. This was her response immediately after the race:



Not even anything super controversial or inflammatory and yet she was attacked and threatened by people in the LGBT community to the point where she just deleted her Twitter account. Even when she retired a few months back and made a short video about it and it got posted on Twitter there's still a few people calling her names after all these years.

Also during the 2016 Rio games, immediately after the 800m race, a Canadian coach says he DID want to speak up about the issue, but was told not to by Canada's Olympic Committee.

"An Injustice" : Former Canadian Olympic Head Coach Speaks Out Against Results Of 2016 Olympics, Calls For Sex-Segregated Sport - Reduxx

Athletics Canada’s former head coach has come forward to reveal that he was threatened by the Canadian Olympic Committee lawyers after expressing discontent with the results of the women’s 800m at the 2016 Olympic Games. The competition saw three biological males take the top spots, displacing...

reduxx.info

I mean you quoted some ridiculous website named Reduxx, which is just a shit rag mag online of hate towards Trans/LGBTQ athletes. Piss off with that shit mate.

I could practice basketball 24/7 my entire life and I’ll never be able to beat a guy who is 2 feet taller than me.

You lost me at DEI. You mean inclusive?

Muggsy Bogues says that just means you suck and didn't hard enough at a sport you had a shred of talent in to begin with.

I really like the Paris games so far. Awesome venues, very well run and organized, great crowds turning out for the majority of events. Very entertaining to watch. Still not a huge fan of the opening ceremony. Some good parts, some not so good parts and it was a SJWs wet dream where they crammed as much DEI into it as they possibly could to make sure no one felt left out and under represented.

How dare they be inclusive to everyone, we should be as white I mean as right as we can in everything!

 

[Andrei79]

Hey guy, that was me.

First of all, him competing does change people’s life. A man stepping into a fighting arena with a woman is extremely dangerous and someone probably is quite literally going to be killed at some point because of this insanity.

What’s the need to protect the .001 of people who come up with this stuff that they need all kinds of special protections and categories that apply to themselves? Does this person have a medical condition? Maybe so (usually they’ll just claim they transitioned), but even at face value that this person has a medical condition, why do they come before the vast majority of competitors?

Because that’s what you’re suggesting. You’d rather protect what you view as the right of the very rare individual, one who I fully believe is mentally unstable to pretend to be the opposite sex to physically beat up on females. I’d say any male that takes enjoyment from beating up a female is mentally unstable. I’d rather protect the population. No one is telling these people how to live their life. They can call themselves whatever they want, but that should not be imposed on everyone else. They should not be entitled to physically endanger opponents and make a mockery of sport because of whatever conditions they may have (physical, mental, spiritual).

If someone had a daughter with an androgen insensitivity disorder and a grown man kept calling her a man in front of her, I feel that father would be completely justified in punching the f*** out of that dipshit. Even by internet standards it is incredibly insensitive and ignorant. Having a child with this disorder might open your mind about, but at the same time you want children to be in good environments.

 

[Beau Knows]

Shocked to see a bunch of ignorant people have made asses of themselves yet again.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

If someone had a daughter with an androgen insensitivity disorder and a grown man kept calling her a man in front of her, I feel that father would be completely justified in punching the f*** out of that dipshit. Even by internet standards it is incredibly insensitive and ignorant. Having a child with this disorder might open your mind about, but at the same time you want children to be in good environments.

This is such a dishonest argument. You are framing this as if people are saying they can't breath and eat food and have shelter. This is about whether they can participate in a combat sport against a different biological sex.

You insist on calling someone what they aren't. This person has been declared a male by biological tests. You are calling this person a female based on compassion or something like that. I think it's compassionate to be honest and not delude people.

Further, the issue is not that this person is what they are. No one is telling them they can't live on the earth or go about their business in the way they are. If someone is named Joseph and they want to call themselves Josephine, they can call themselves whatever they like. The issue becomes they are trying to participate in a combat sport where their biological advantages can inflict serious damage on their competitors. I think you need to protect the greater good. One person might be slightly inconvenienced. They might want to compete against females because they think thats where they belong (for whatever reason they do), and they should be told sorry you are not allowed to compete in this division. You can compete, but it's in the mens division. Otherwise, they are free to not compete. No one is putting them in jail or ostracizing them from society. This is about protecting people they could seriously hurt due to their biological advantage.

 

[Albatros]

This is such a dishonest argument. You are framing this as if people are saying they can't breath and eat food and have shelter. This is about whether they can participate in a combat sport against a different biological sex.

You insist on calling someone what they aren't. This person has been declared a male by biological tests. You are calling this person a female based on compassion or something like that. I think it's compassionate to be honest and not delude people.

Further, the issue is not that this person is what they are. No one is telling them they can't live on the earth or go about their business in the way they are. If someone is named Joseph and they want to call themselves Josephine, they can call themselves whatever they like. The issue becomes they are trying to participate in a combat sport where their biological advantages can inflict serious damage on their competitors. I think you need to protect the greater good. One person might be slightly inconvenienced. They might want to compete against females because they think thats where they belong (for whatever reason they do), and they should be told sorry you are not allowed to compete in this division. You can compete, but it's in the mens division. Otherwise, they are free to not compete. No one is putting them in jail or ostracizing them from society. This is about protecting people they could seriously hurt due to their biological advantage.

Why was the IBA decision made exclusively by the President and the CEO personally and not by the board of directors if that was an unbiased medical decision after due process?

By the way if you want to talk about endangering opponents, Khelif's opponent Luca Hamori has a significantly higher KO ratio.

 

[Andrei79]

This is such a dishonest argument. You are framing this as if people are saying they can't breath and eat food and have shelter. This is about whether they can participate in a combat sport against a different biological sex.

You insist on calling someone what they aren't. This person has been declared a male by biological tests. You are calling this person a female based on compassion or something like that. I think it's compassionate to be honest and not delude people.

Further, the issue is not that this person is what they are. No one is telling them they can't live on the earth or go about their business in the way they are. If someone is named Joseph and they want to call themselves Josephine, they can call themselves whatever they like. The issue becomes they are trying to participate in a combat sport where their biological advantages can inflict serious damage on their competitors. I think you need to protect the greater good. One person might be slightly inconvenienced. They might want to compete against females because they think thats where they belong (for whatever reason they do), and they should be told sorry you are not allowed to compete in this division. You can compete, but it's in the mens division. Otherwise, they are free to not compete. No one is putting them in jail or ostracizing them from society. This is about protecting people they could seriously hurt due to their biological advantage.

No, I'm not making an opinion on whether she should participate as it's a more complex issue than trans athletes. I'm specifically calling you out for your ignorance on the subject and your insensitivity towards the person.

You actually have no idea what specific tests were done on her or their reliability.

Even if she was born with androgen insensitivity, the majority have female phenotypes and gender identity, because that is, to put it in laymen's terms, the default biological sex of every fetus and if the cells are insensitive to testosterone (due to receptor dysfunction or other types of genetic anomalies), male sex characteristics aren't formed. That means they have female sex characteristics. They have a vagina, a clitoris and breast development and feminization during puberty. They largely feel they're female. They're given female names at birth. Sometimes, the defect is found at birth, other times at puberty, but due to amenorrhea. This is also dependent on the degree of insensitivity, whether it's complete, partial or minimal. We don't know where Khelif is on that continuum, hell we don't even have real confirmation on a disorder. It doesn't even matter to be honest when it comes to her sex and how to identify her if she does have the disorder.

What you're saying is someone who's always been Josephine, has had a vagina since she was born and was always told she's Josephine, is Joseph. It's dishonest and ignorant.

 

[Andrei79]

Let's say @Pavel Buchnevich has a son.

He has a penis and testes.

So he calls him Phillip.

Phillip is a normal boy.

He goes through puberty, but is shorter than his peers and his dad. He's a bit less hairy too.

He finds a lovely female partner in his 20s, but they can't conceive, because he's the one who's infetile with small testes. They do a genetic test and he comes out as an XX SRY negative individual.

Being the consistent person that he is @Pavel Buchnevich will start calling his son his daughter and will refer to him as she/her in all communications accordingly after learning that important information, being the respectful and sensible person that he is.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Let's say @Pavel Buchnevich has a son.

He has a penis and testes.

So he calls him Phillip.

Phillip is a normal boy.

He goes through puberty, but is shorter than his peers and his dad. He's a bit less hairy too.

He finds a lovely female partner in his 20s, but they can't conceive, because he's the one who's infetile with small testes. They do a genetic test and he comes out as an XX SRY negative individual.

Being the consistent person that he is @Pavel Buchnevich will start calling his son his daughter and will refer to him as she/her in all communications accordingly after learning that important information, being the respectful and sensible person that he is.

Lol good on you mate. To argue against ignorance is tough and your last few posts are fantastic.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Let's say @Pavel Buchnevich has a son.

He has a penis and testes.

So he calls him Phillip.

Phillip is a normal boy.

He goes through puberty, but is shorter than his peers and his dad. He's a bit less hairy too.

He finds a lovely female partner in his 20s, but they can't conceive, because he's the one who's infetile with small testes. They do a genetic test and he comes out as an XX SRY negative individual.

Being the consistent person that he is @Pavel Buchnevich will start calling his son his daughter and will refer to him as she/her in all communications accordingly after learning that important information, being the respectful and sensible person that he is.

You've taken this so far from what the discussion is about.

This is about whether this person should be allowed to participate in a women's boxing match at the Olympics.

I think it's actually quite sad and revealing that people will go to such lengths in an attempt to bolster their favorite causes to back a dude who is beating up women. It sounds so wrong on its face. Why can't everyone just agree that the obvious is wrong?

 

[Live in the Now]

What I think is really cool is this bullshit hijacking the entire forum instead of talking about anything important.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

What I think is really cool is this bullshit hijacking the entire forum instead of talking about anything important.

You have over 53k posts and still expect discussion on anything important on this forum?

You've taken this so far from what the discussion is about.

This is about whether this person should be allowed to participate in a women's boxing match at the Olympics.

I think it's actually quite sad and revealing that people will go to such lengths in an attempt to bolster their favorite causes to back a dude who is beating up women. It sounds so wrong on its face. Why can't everyone just agree that the obvious is wrong?

You don't get to police a discussion in which you refuse to exercise basic civility.

Oh. And you also don't even have a basic understanding of the situation.

 

[VMBM]

I meant to tackle this bombardment on my, er, precious character already yesterday, but it was Friday evening, and I was having a little too much fun, so decided not to. I haven't followed the conversation since then, so the thread might have moved into other, less controversial and arguably more relevant areas already. So sorry, dear Mods, if I'm flogging a dead horse here. However, obviously I couldn't let this just totally go. I'll try to behave.

@JPT Well, at least you didn't use words like "dipshit", as one like-minded person did (apparently directed towards everyone who dares to have any problem with any of this issue). Still, it was a rather acid-y and accusatory post full of big words ("advocating discrimination", "incredebly dangerous") and a fair bit of assumptions from yourself imo, which you accused also me of. You'd probably like to think that this is a simple matter of human rights and fairness (towards people like Khelif), and nothing to do with ideology, politics, opinions and female safety. Guess what, I think you're wrong! Ergo...

In this particular case, you are advocating for discriminating against persons born with vaginas, who have identified as female for their entire lives, because the IBA simply claims to have proven those female persons have XY chromosomes. Even if they do, there are medical conditions which can cause that in, once again, a person who was born with female sex organs and always has identified as a female.

As little as I'd want to talk about anyone's vagina here, I guess I have to, since you brought it up...

Actually it's semi-encouraging to see you apparently acknowledging the fact that being born with a vagina is indeed something that pretty much determines that a person is a female. Bravo, I agree totally. Hooray for biology! However, the cynic in me suspects that you only say that here because you think it supports your argument in this instance. I mean, you should then also agree that being born without a vagina (like, with a penis) would make someone a man. And then the conclusion would be that a man can't become a woman, and a woman can't become a man, no matter what they do with their bodies and or identify as? Somehow I think you oppose that view, though. But I digress, so back to the subject at hand...

You give the impression that you know a lot about Khelif's history, including the true 'composition' of her vagina (?). You act like there is nothing to even debate about whether she's a female or male (or...?), and obviously you're not the only one in this thread. However, I've got news for you; it is being debated, whether you like it or not. Just one example, Helen Joyce says in an interview with TalkTV here that based on the available evidence (mainly that IBA's supposed failed gender test and testosterone levels), Khelif is a male and that's it. She also notes that IOC is not being open and transparent in their operation at all. I assume that Joyce is ideologically your total opposite, so you maybe don't care about anything she says anyway. However, you can't claim that she doesn't know or understand anything what she's talking about. Or maybe you can, but I'm then allowed to ignore it.

What is that supposed undisputable authority/source that we all have listen to and accept without any questioning on this issue? Even I have learned to be quite critical of the media and other information sources especially in recent years. For example, a large part of the Finnish media, while always noting that the Fox News is a mouthpiece for republicans/conservatives (duh), use the likes of CNN and New York Times as some kind of neutral sources. Ridiculous. Especially noticeable now when considering the big year in the USA.

Obviously one can and probably should be suspicious about the IBA, with its heavy Russian influence and all. Still, you don't say anything about the IOC and their credibility. What makes them such a very reliable governing body — outside that you happen to agree with their stance? How did they come to the conclusion that Khelif is a woman again? Wasn't it something as unconvincing as "it says so on her passport" and "she has always identified as a female" and "shut up" (well, the latter was mine, but they could've very well said that)? No politics or ideology involved whatsoever, I'm sure.

You also seem to want to police other people's language. And of course you (and many others) calling Khelif plainly a female, no ifs and buts, is all part of that = since Khelif is a female, there is simply no argument against her boxing in the female category. Now, I used the term 'intersex' just to be neutral, because quite frankly, I didn't (and I guess still don't) have a strong position on whether she's a male or a female. But hey, even Helen Joyce kind of agrees with you on that intersex is not a proper term, the difference being that she calls Khelif a male rather than female.

Also, why are you throwing that "she has always identified as a woman" line at me? You should've obviously realized by now that it means nothing to me and to many others, unless it matches the reality. Having said that, I have no reasons to believe that there is something sinister about Khelif identifying as a female à la "it's just a means to dominate in women's sports".

Lastly, maybe the most important thing why this is being so heavily discussed at all. In your post, you take no stand on whether Khelif fighting women might be unfair or even dangerous to female athletes; it's all about Khelif's etc rights and them not being discriminated. I can see some people posting a type of "gotcha" posts with quotes from Khelif's old opponent(s) and her supposedly mediocre record and low knockout ratio. I'm no expert, but do people generally have high KO percentages in amateur boxing anyway? One could also make a case that, well, if the record is so bad as people portray, then Khelif is not particularly talented, so it's all about the unfair advantages in other areas rather than pure talent in this case. I don't believe that per se, but I also think that people dismissing Khelif's career is just another way of whitewashing.

I'm no spokeperson or apologist for Carini, and apparently she has also retracted or at least apologized for some things she said and for that she quit. From my understanding, she has also gotten some criticism in her home country. However, I'm also not ready to dismiss her initial reaction in the fight when that right cross landed in her face. Nor will I call her a loser and whatever-phobe. Maybe she indeed felt something she hadn't felt before, which made her fear for her safety. How could you dismiss or laugh it off?! Are we in the "why did you become a boxer then?" or "sore loser!" level of discussion now?

You also fail to clearly define what a "gray area" is, which history has shown to be incredibly dangerous. You are making an assumption that a female who was born a female and continues to be a female being allowed to participate in women's sports will result in men simply claiming to identify as women so they can dominate in women's sports. There is no reason to make that assumption other than to justify discrimination. You say you've yet to see a good argument for why "intersex" people (once again, in the case that sparked your poorly thought out argument, we are talking about a female, not an "intersex" person). Based on how atrocious your argument is, I have trouble believing you would admit to recognizing a good argument, or accept it if you did. Simply put, nothing you said is based on reality, and all of it is meant to justify disallowing a person from doing something based solely on how you view that person's gender.

The rest of your post I found just so repulsive and has such false pretenses in my opinion (discussed largely already above) that I can't. I just can't. As far as I'm concerned, it's worth mostly of the old sandbox argument, "no, you are!".

One concession I will make though. I shouldn't have jumped straight away into the men (trans women, if you will) playing in women's sports issue already in my first post and I should've thought about the context more. However, not in anyway did I mean that because of specifically Khelif and the like will many men now suddenly decide to say they are women, so that they can dominate in women's sports. Nonsense. That could happen only if the sports organizations allowed it to happen. I obviously hope they never will.

 

[TaLoN]

Shocked to see a bunch of ignorant people have made asses of themselves yet again.

I'm not

 

[TaLoN]

You've taken this so far from what the discussion is about.

This is about whether this person should be allowed to participate in a women's boxing match at the Olympics.

I think it's actually quite sad and revealing that people will go to such lengths in an attempt to bolster their favorite causes to back a dude who is beating up women. It sounds so wrong on its face. Why can't everyone just agree that the obvious is wrong?

You're the one calling her "him" which is completely disrespectful. You can't go that route, get called out on it, then say it's dishonest or out of the realm of discussion. She was born with female reproductive organs, was assigned female at birth. Has lived as a female all her life. Has competed as a female for over a decade. Even under the IBA... until Russia... suddenly the IBA in Russia makes a ruling based on information none of us have, yet seems to be in disagreement with even themselves, she gets disqualified.

She goes on fighting elsewhere without anyone complaining at all. She's not a particularly good fighter even, considering her mediocre record, so isn't particularly dangerous. Yet, suddenly, someone hears about the hypocritical IBA move, then "look at her" and suddenly they won't even respectfully call her "her" anymore.

You want to point to this last fight, but nothing out of the ordinary even happened within the ring. A boxer with poor defense, left her face completely exposed and got her nose broken. Pretty sure just about any of the competitors could've delivered a broken nose there. It's fricking boxing. If it was a dangerous fighter in particular, it would've been a MUCH worse outcome... loss of consciousness. A boxer getting a broken nose is like you walking to the bathroom... it's a common occurrence.

 

[Hasbro]

This is such a dishonest argument. You are framing this as if people are saying they can't breath and eat food and have shelter. This is about whether they can participate in a combat sport against a different biological sex.

You insist on calling someone what they aren't. This person has been declared a male by biological tests. You are calling this person a female based on compassion or something like that. I think it's compassionate to be honest and not delude people.

Further, the issue is not that this person is what they are. No one is telling them they can't live on the earth or go about their business in the way they are. If someone is named Joseph and they want to call themselves Josephine, they can call themselves whatever they like. The issue becomes they are trying to participate in a combat sport where their biological advantages can inflict serious damage on their competitors. I think you need to protect the greater good. One person might be slightly inconvenienced. They might want to compete against females because they think thats where they belong (for whatever reason they do), and they should be told sorry you are not allowed to compete in this division. You can compete, but it's in the mens division. Otherwise, they are free to not compete. No one is putting them in jail or ostracizing them from society. This is about protecting people they could seriously hurt due to their biological advantage.

She's as God made her.

Might also be putting her at risk in a country stricter on trans as Algeria and I'm sure people calling her a man has to do wonders for her self esteem.

 

[Jussi]

Completely surprising (not): IBA is to award Angela Carini of Italy with Olympic champion prize money

No one had an issue with Khelif in Tokyo Olympics or 2022. It wasn't until 2023 when she defeated a Russian boxer. Carini was just a willing participant in a stunt organised by the corrupt IBA and it's corrupt president.

Former Finnish boxer Elina Gustafsson also commented that this wasn't the first odd forfeit by Carini: Elina Gustafsson jyrähtää kohuottelusta – ”Kertoo enemmän italialaisesta”

– Lyönti, johon ottelu päättyi, ei mielestäni ollut ihmeellinen. Tämä ei ollut Carinin ensimmäinen ”outo” luovutus, joten mielestäni luovutus kertoo enemmän italialaisesta kuin Algerian Khelifistä.

"The punch which ended the match, wasn't special at all in my opinion. This wasn't the first "odd" forfeit by Carini, so in my opinion the forfeit says more about the Italian than the Angerian Khelif."