Blue Jays Discussion: 2024 Season - Complete without a great title in keeping with the performance

metafour

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Apr 6, 2008
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BABIP’d on the road, power drought at home. The huge cold spell over the last couple of months has hurt but I think he has the approach to bounce back and be a 110-120 wRC+.

He has below average contact and is striking out at nearly a 30% rate going back to last season. Unfortunately he has average EV's so his power is mainly dependent on pulling the ball with optimal launch angle, but his HR/FB rate has normalized this season (hence the power draught), and his lack of contact makes it difficult for him to create occurrences where he is pulling the ball with optimal launch angle.

110-120 wRC+ is likely rich for a player of his deficiencies/skills. He is probably more of a ~100 wRC+ hitter.
 

dredeye

BJ Elitist/Hipster
Mar 3, 2008
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Another take on MLB farm systems after the deadline. We are 22. Could be worse :)

Could be 23 lol. Listening to analysis after the trade and a lot of what I've heard is they are on paper good-looking prospects but with the eye you can easily see holes pitchers can exploit in their swings etc.
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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1722978773031.png

22. Toronto Blue Jays -- $165 million

Current top prospect: Orelvis Martinez, 3B

Preseason ranking: 24th, $126 million

What has happened since: It has not been a good season for the Blue Jays. Former top prospect Ricky Tiedemann was not having a good season and then went down with elbow surgery. New top prospect Martinez is now serving an 80-game PED suspension. Top 2022 draft pick Brandon Barriera also underwent elbow surgery. There hasn't really been a big breakthrough performance in the system deserving of Top 100 attention.

All that said, though, the Blue Jays handled the draft and trade deadline pretty well. The return for Yusei Kikuchi was excellent -- Jake Bloss and Joey Loperfido were among the top seven prospects traded at the deadline while Charles McAdoo is intriguing -- and the headliners of the draft crop (Trey Yesavage, Johnny King, Sean Keys, Khal Stephen) were solid values.
 

TGB

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Jun 7, 2021
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Damn, I'm on fire this season. The Jays are in the cellar just like I said they would be, they traded Espinal and Biggio first like I said they would, they traded Jansen like I said they would, they targeted older prospects at the trade deadline like I expected, and, although it took an extra month, the play of the Bisons players prompted moves that has led to a large chunk of the Bisons playing for the Jays. Vladdy even figured things out like I expected he would, although it took longer than I anticipated. The only thing that threw me off was the return they got for Kikuchi, which is probably not as good as Jays reporters want you to believe but still better than I expected, and the subdued return for Jansen.

I still fully expect Bichette to be gone in the offseason as he will be played heavily down the stretch to rebuild value, although if he plays poorly it's hard to say what kind of return to expect. Here's hoping Vladdy doesn't take on Boras as his agent.
 

TheMadHatTrick

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Nov 2, 2008
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Another one of the few organizational prospects currently on an upward trajectory, 20-year-old outfielder, Victor Arias. He's a speedy lefty hitter that mostly plays LF and CF. Not currently ranked among our top 30 prospects on MLB.com, he wasn't a big bonus IFA when we signed him in 2020.

Tonight he's played his 5th game in High-A Vancouver and is hitting .389/.500/.444 after hitting .279/.386/.454 8hr 19(2b) 3(3b) 36bb 72so 16sb at Dunedin.


Arias’ game starts with a good approach. He chases just 24% of the time, 3% better than league average, but he avoids passivity, swinging at an average number of strikes. He’s also a slightly above average contact hitter, with an 80% in-zone contact rate vs. the league average of 79%. Where he shines is his power production, though. Arias has reached an exit velocity of 109.4mph, which would be in the 33rd percentile in MLB, but hard hit rate (40.8%) is already above the MLB median. His 30 extra base hits are fifth in the FSL, and all but one player ahead of him has had at least 35 more PAs. The only real criticism of his hitting is that he puts the ball on the ground too much, a little over 50% of the time. His 4.6 degree launch angle is significantly below the FSL average of 10.2 and would be one of the 5 lowest in the major leagues. His swing involves a big leg kick and a high hand load that it looks like might make it hard for him to get the barrel down in time to lift the ball. In the little that’s been written about him elsewhere, Eric Longenhagen at Fangraphs noted that there were questions about whether his bat path would work against better quality pitching. He has great bat speed, though, and with an already solid approach he has the tools to hit his way up the ladder if he can make the necessary adjustment.

A stocky 5’11”, Arias already looks like an adult, so there may not be much more physical development left for him. He splits his time between centre and left field, but the latter is probably his home in the upper levels. He’ll need to hit, and hit with impact, then, to have a shot at an MLB future. Everything he’s doing in Dunedin this year suggests he has the potential to do that, but we’ll see whether he can either keep making his swing work or find an adjustment as the competition gets tougher.
 

Suntouchable13

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Dec 20, 2003
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Horwitz and Clement are 100% on the 2025 team. I just want to see if Horwitz can find a more consistent power stroke. Although, of course he won’t be hitting cleanup for a contending club but still.

Damn, I'm on fire this season. The Jays are in the cellar just like I said they would be, they traded Espinal and Biggio first like I said they would, they traded Jansen like I said they would, they targeted older prospects at the trade deadline like I expected, and, although it took an extra month, the play of the Bisons players prompted moves that has led to a large chunk of the Bisons playing for the Jays. Vladdy even figured things out like I expected he would, although it took longer than I anticipated. The only thing that threw me off was the return they got for Kikuchi, which is probably not as good as Jays reporters want you to believe but still better than I expected, and the subdued return for Jansen.

I still fully expect Bichette to be gone in the offseason as he will be played heavily down the stretch to rebuild value, although if he plays poorly it's hard to say what kind of return to expect. Here's hoping Vladdy doesn't take on Boras as his agent.

I don’t think Bo will be traded. Leo is not ready to take over full time, unless you trust Orelvis?
 
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Bjindaho

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Jun 12, 2006
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Horwitz and Clement are 100% on the 2025 team. I just want to see if Horwitz can find a more consistent power stroke. Although, of course he won’t be hitting cleanup for a contending club but still.



I don’t think Bo will be traded. Leo is not ready to take over full time, unless you trust Orelvis?
I think in the trade Bo scenario, Ernie Clement is the SS.

Some combo of Wagner/Barger/Martinez/Jimenez would cover 3rd (possibly with Vlad playing every once in a while over there too).
 
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Suntouchable13

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I think in the trade Bo scenario, Ernie Clement is the SS.

Some combo of Wagner/Barger/Martinez/Jimenez would cover 3rd (possibly with Vlad playing every once in a while over there too).

I guess depends what we get for Bo, but I like the potential of Bo, Horwitz, Vladdy being an All-star caliber infield next year.
 

Bjindaho

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Crazy stat of the day:

If the season ended today, Varsho would be unlikely to win the gold glove (because DRS is a heavy component and Duran leads CF in DRS and Varsho isn't eligible as a LF because he has played more innings in CF even though he could realistically lead all LF in DRS at the end of the year despite not playing LF again), which would make him ineligible for the platinum glove. This would be the second year in a row that he leads the AL in DRS and wouldn't win the Platinum Glove because he played both LF and CF.
 

Blitzkrug

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Sep 17, 2013
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I hope they re-sign both Bo and Vladdy with all my heart. But nothing about this front office gives me confidence that they will.
I think Vladdy will stick around. His desire to stay seems fairly genuine and the Jays need something to put asses in seats.

Bo is likely gone sometime in the next 12 months.
 

TheMadHatTrick

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Nov 2, 2008
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What would an extension for Vladdy look like? Miguel Cabrera's 8-year m/240M and Albert Pujols's 10-year/240M would seem like his closest talent comparables (although both were better players), but those contracts were signed a decade ago. A more recent contract like Devers's 10-year/313.5M is also a point of reference. I'm in favor of resigning Vladdy, but signing him for 10 years could start to get ugly by year 7. Pujols stopped being an average player by age 34, Cabrera by age 33. I'm willing to go 10 years but the aav has to be much closer to 24 million than it is to 30 million.
 

Suntouchable13

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What would an extension for Vladdy look like? Miguel Cabrera's 8-year m/240M and Albert Pujols's 10-year/240M would seem like his closest talent comparables (although both were better players), but those contracts were signed a decade ago. A more recent contract like Devers's 10-year/313.5M is also a point of reference. I'm in favor of resigning Vladdy, but signing him for 10 years could start to get ugly by year 7. Pujols stopped being an average player by age 34, Cabrera by age 33. I'm willing to go 10 years but the aav has to be much closer to 24 million than it is to 30 million.

Devers contract is problematic when it comes to Vladdy. Why would he be ok with making less than Devers? Once again, F Boston.
 

Discoverer

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Apr 11, 2012
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What would an extension for Vladdy look like? Miguel Cabrera's 8-year m/240M and Albert Pujols's 10-year/240M would seem like his closest talent comparables (although both were better players), but those contracts were signed a decade ago. A more recent contract like Devers's 10-year/313.5M is also a point of reference. I'm in favor of resigning Vladdy, but signing him for 10 years could start to get ugly by year 7. Pujols stopped being an average player by age 34, Cabrera by age 33. I'm willing to go 10 years but the aav has to be much closer to 24 million than it is to 30 million.
Cabrera and Pujols were both better, but they were 33 and 32 when those contracts started. Vladdy will be entering his age-27 season. Those ones are tough comps for a lot of reasons.

I think the Devers contract is a great comp. They have similar overall track records, with Devers providing more with the glove (he's a shitty 3B, but he's still a 3B) and Vladdy having a pretty significant offensive advantage.
 
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TheMadHatTrick

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Devers contract is problematic when it comes to Vladdy. Why would he be ok with making less than Devers? Once again, F Boston.
He might not be ok with it but Devers has been an objectively better player for at least the last four years (16.9 WAR vs. 14.2 WAR).
 

LaP

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Jun 27, 2012
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Not a good start for Kikuchi.

First pitch double and then next batter HR
You surely meant not a great 1st inning cause the start itself was fine. We all know Kikuchi can't pitch more than 5 innings but over 5 innings he's pretty good. You must have a great bullpen if you have him as a starter though.
 

LaP

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Jun 27, 2012
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Justin Turner his a grand slam in his first game
Kikuchi sets an Astros record striking out 8 straight batters in his debut. Also a W.

Typical
The Jays players were not bad. It was just a poorly built team. But the players making the team were not bad players and they can surely help other teams. The offense is slow on base and doesn't have much power outside of Vlad. The bullpen lacked a strong 8th inning pitcher (role played by Hicks last season). Nothing against Swanson but he can't be your number 2 at the start of the year. The guy has 10 saves total in career with 8 blown saves and only 32 holds. For a 8th inning pitcher that's awful imo. The 5th starter had either 0 experience or 0 mental. It was also an rather old pitchers group with nothing coming up in the pipeline to help. One of the catcher was often injured and the other can't play every night.
 

LaP

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I think it’s going to prove a huge mistake not exploiting the trade market and cashing in on Gausman/Basset. I think Gausman especially for some reason are gonna have down years next year.

I also keep hearing about how it Atkins doesn’t sound like a gm that’s about to lose his job and other garbage like that. I think we better lock in to another year of Shapiro and Atkins. Shapiro on the last year of his deal and Atkins second last year. Bo and Vlad in their last years. They keep saying they’ll stay through this window of the Bo/Vlad contracts. I will not engage in anything blue jays if they are around after the season ends. I’ll refuse free tickets.
Shapiro and Atkins would have already been fired if that was the plan. They are there for at least 2 more years probably 3. There's no way you let your GM blow this team up and retool without giving him 2-3 more years would not make sense at all.
 

LaP

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Jun 27, 2012
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Ouch that fast?
Biggio's not good. I'm still baffled that anyone defended him being use as a 4th batter in playoffs last year just because "he had a nice sequence to end the year". It's like if a hockey team would replace their 1st center by their 4th center in playoffs just because the 4th center ended the season with 5 points in his last 10 games. That was a ludicrous decision to have such a weak batter batting 4th in playoffs.
 
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TheMadHatTrick

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Nov 2, 2008
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It's sounding more and more like Atkins isn't going anywhere. What do they say about insanity again? :laugh:

"Commenting on job status during the season, throughout my entire career when I've been asked about those things, it's not something I have or will ever do," the Blue Jays president and CEO said.

"That being said, contextually, I'm a huge believer in stability and continuity and that those are competitive advantages," he added. "In professional sports, reacting and change don't necessarily mean improvement."
 

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