Or a law firm.Random aside but Eklund, Celebrini, Smith, and Dickinson look like they could be members of a boy band and I expect a Christmas video to match that.
Or a law firm.Random aside but Eklund, Celebrini, Smith, and Dickinson look like they could be members of a boy band and I expect a Christmas video to match that.
Do we need to get Nieto back for his veteran Christmas video presence?Random aside but Eklund, Celebrini, Smith, and Dickinson look like they could be members of a boy band and I expect a Christmas video to match that.
I dont see his situation as bad as you do. He got a norris trophy season from karlsson. Hertl and meier were still definitely top 6 forwards. Cooch's injury was bad luck, but I think the sharks could have been respectable with a better coach and some good deployment of capital. I am not the "tear it all down" type. But Quinn was a disaster. Kunin (who is somehow still here), lindbom and co were complete failures.Just an insane take on many levels. Grier was handed one of the worst situations of any professional sports teams in North America, not just the NHL. He’s gotten excellent value on the contracts he’s shed and has also gotten excellent value out of those assets he obtained.
He has not been perfect, but I’m surely not going to judge him for having to overpay role players to come to San Jose and play for a team everyone knows is horrible and nowhere close to contention.
His priority in free agency right now should not be to dole out massive amounts of money to overpay guys, it should be to bring in veterans and leaders on short term deals to make life easier on the younger guys and show them the ropes as they grow.
We are still years away, and he has a lot left to prove, but thus far, he’s done a tremendous job of restarting this franchise.
Maybe everyone here thought 50% retention common sense was 20-25% which getting down to 13% wasn’t unreasonable however taking on Hoffman and having conditions on the draft pick is where most pundits saw a hang up if your taking Hoffman there should’ve been nom conditions on the first (not that it mattered in the long run)He got us out of Karlsson's 11.5 million dollar contract with tiny retention AND got us the 1st that got us Dickenson.
Everyone said we would have to retain 50% AND pay someone a pick.
I'm not sure what you expected there, but that was more of a miracle than miracle on ice.
He also did good on the Timo trade.
SJ had few trade options considering who could afford him and EK's NTC. Hasso wasn't going to pay 30 million for him to go away. What Grier got for EK was nothing short of a miracle.Maybe everyone here thought 50% retention common sense was 20-25% which getting down to 13% wasn’t unreasonable however taking on Hoffman and having conditions on the draft pick is where most pundits saw a hang up if your taking Hoffman there should’ve been nom conditions on the first (not that it mattered in the long run)
I really like Zetturlund a lot he’s one of my favorite types of players but he’s a high tier 3rd liner on a team with depthUnderlying assumptions:
1) Grier wants to help the Sharks
2) It was well-known that Burns/Karlsson/Meier was available
3) Plattner had certain financial conditions Grier had to meet
Hence, Grier undoubtedly took the best return available. Maybe there is some nuance in the way he valued picks/prospects (say he took the NJ offer because he preferred Zetterlund and Mukhamadullin over St. Louis's two first-rounders, etc.)
i really like zetterlund a lot he’s my favorite type of player but in a team with depth he’s a top tier 3rd liner, Muk is projecting at best 3/4 id would’ve rather of had 2 first rounders in a rebuild.Underlying assumptions:
1) Grier wants to help the Sharks
2) It was well-known that Burns/Karlsson/Meier was available
3) Plattner had certain financial conditions Grier had to meet
Hence, Grier undoubtedly took the best return available. Maybe there is some nuance in the way he valued picks/prospects (say he took the NJ offer because he preferred Zetterlund and Mukhamadullin over St. Louis's two first-rounders, etc.)
I disagree with your assessment, but in any case the Sharks *also* got a first round pick from New Jersey, as well as the conditional one that ended up being a high second.I really like Zetturlund a lot he’s one of my favorite types of players but he’s a high tier 3rd liner on a team with depth
i really like zetterlund a lot he’s my favorite type of player but in a team with depth he’s a top tier 3rd liner, Muk is projecting at best 3/4 id would’ve rather of had 2 first rounders in a rebuild.
By the time this team is contending will either of them still be productive not likely. Now could those 2 be leveraged for first rounders in the next 2 season possible but not likely you might get a first for Zetts and a 2nd for Muk.
I like how you use language here to subtly make sure to give Grier as little credit as possible. He didn't draft well--no, the last two drafts "yielded a ton of talent."I dont see his situation as bad as you do. He got a norris trophy season from karlsson. Hertl and meier were still definitely top 6 forwards. Cooch's injury was bad luck, but I think the sharks could have been respectable with a better coach and some good deployment of capital. I am not the "tear it all down" type. But Quinn was a disaster. Kunin (who is somehow still here), lindbom and co were complete failures.
All that said, I agree that the real clock starts now. he jettisoned everyone he could (pickles and cooch aside) and got as much value as he could (maybe). our last two drafts have yielded a ton of talent. So, now its time to add some talent, not more "grit" that sucks.
One of the downsides of ELC's is that they are limited. After three years, those players often get big raises. Those ELC years allow a team to get top 9 forwards and top 4 D for practically free. But, if those years are wasted mired at the bottom of the league because the GM failed to put talent around them, then it's a waste. The ELC's are really starting now on Eklund, graf, smith and celly, bystedt, edtrom, musty, halt, etc as well. Every year of stinking is a burned year of cheap talent.
Its also very hard to add 3 top 9 forwards and 2-3 top 4 D in one offseason. Those have to be added over time.
If Grier grabs at least 1-2 top 6 forwards and 1-2 top 4 D in UFA, then I will consider it a solid start. I dont want another bottom feeder season and I dont see that as needed. Cooch and pickles cap hits will be coming off in the next 2-3 years, so we dont have to wait until they are gone to bring in talent.
This summer is the first real test for me for grier. He's torn it all down and put nearly the worst product on the ice in the NHL in the last 20 years.He got lots of good picks. It's time to get better....
SJ had few trade options considering who could afford him and EK's NTC. Hasso wasn't going to pay 30 million for him to go away. What Grier got for EK was nothing short of a miracle.
I respect both of your opinions but I think we are in agree to disagree land now we ain’t convincing each other who’s got the better opinionI disagree with your assessment, but in any case the Sharks *also* got a first round pick from New Jersey, as well as the conditional one that ended up being a high second.
And who do you think was ultimately in charge of hiring the scouts?Outside of the first round, it is the scouting team that runs it so we need to pump the breaks on GMMG being the draft king. He's the draft facilitator.
I get what you're saying, however, and this is for all of us, we really don't know what the options were. We don't know what Hasso was willing to retain on and we don't know what Karlsson or the other 31 teams wanted.I respect both of your opinions but I think we are in agree to disagree land now we ain’t convincing each other who’s got the better opinion
That being said I’m sure I have a little of bias towards D Wil’s trade prowess because at his peak he was pretty damn good, his drafting was a mixed bag probably overall below average despite finding a couple of late round gems. He built the team primarily through good to great trades. I think Griers approach and where he excels is building through the draft not going off the board and taking BAP I still don’t think he has the ability to supplement the line up through trade but hopefully he can do it with RFA/UFA signings just 2 different approaches hopefully equally as good
I dont see his situation as bad as you do. He got a norris trophy season from karlsson. Hertl and meier were still definitely top 6 forwards. Cooch's injury was bad luck, but I think the sharks could have been respectable with a better coach and some good deployment of capital. I am not the "tear it all down" type. But Quinn was a disaster. Kunin (who is somehow still here), lindbom and co were complete failures.
All that said, I agree that the real clock starts now. he jettisoned everyone he could (pickles and cooch aside) and got as much value as he could (maybe). our last two drafts have yielded a ton of talent. So, now its time to add some talent, not more "grit" that sucks.
One of the downsides of ELC's is that they are limited. After three years, those players often get big raises. Those ELC years allow a team to get top 9 forwards and top 4 D for practically free. But, if those years are wasted mired at the bottom of the league because the GM failed to put talent around them, then it's a waste. The ELC's are really starting now on Eklund, graf, smith and celly, bystedt, edtrom, musty, halt, etc as well. Every year of stinking is a burned year of cheap talent.
Its also very hard to add 3 top 9 forwards and 2-3 top 4 D in one offseason. Those have to be added over time.
If Grier grabs at least 1-2 top 6 forwards and 1-2 top 4 D in UFA, then I will consider it a solid start. I dont want another bottom feeder season and I dont see that as needed. Cooch and pickles cap hits will be coming off in the next 2-3 years, so we dont have to wait until they are gone to bring in talent.
This summer is the first real test for me for grier. He's torn it all down and put nearly the worst product on the ice in the NHL in the last 20 years.He got lots of good picks. It's time to get better....
Here's the post from JTR, NHLe for leagues towards the bottom: NHL Equivalency and Prospect Projection Models: Building the NHL Equivalency Model (Part 2)Does anyone have relatively current NHLe conversion factors? Not just a calculator but the actual numbers to do the conversion math on. I need them for... reasons but the most current I have myself are from like 5 or 6 years ago and don't include some lower leagues like MHL or Euro Jr/dev programs.
We're certainly going to be bad next year, probably for the next two. However, Grier will need to show some growth to see the rebuild through. I'm hoping for 57 points this year, and 73 next. 26 point two-year improvement from a last place team is pretty good.
Sharks had 60 points in 2022/23 season with a 101 point EK and full seasons from Couture, Hertl, and 57 games of Timo. I dont think they're anywhere near even that level right nowWell said, but I am just quoting this last part. I think last season's 49 pts was an aberration because they had injuries and also dumped players like Hertl. I think it should have been a 50-60 pt team. For me, I'm expecting 60ish points in 24-25 and 70ish in 25-26.
Here's the post from JTR, NHLe for leagues towards the bottom: NHL Equivalency and Prospect Projection Models: Building the NHL Equivalency Model (Part 2)
I do remember seeing something on Twitter that it’s possible his model hasn’t taken into account the relative downfall of the KHL so players from there will be slightly overrated now compared to thenThanks. That'll do nicely. It's a couple years old but good enough for something of no real consequence here.
And of course I could've just parsed that table and pulled out the few values I needed manually so it'd take 5 minutes but no I'm a masochist so I spent like half an hour pasting the whole thing into Excel and using like 4 different formulas to strip away the ascii table formatting and pull out just the numbers so they could be plugged into a proper excel table. I'll never need to know the conversion factor from whatever QMEAAA is, but by god I still had to have it in the table
I do remember seeing something on Twitter that it’s possible his model hasn’t taken into account the relative downfall of the KHL so players from there will be slightly overrated now compared to then
Sharks had 60 points in 2022/23 season with a 101 point EK and full seasons from Couture, Hertl, and 57 games of Timo. I dont think they're anywhere near even that level right now
Sharks had 60 points in 2022/23 season with a 101 point EK and full seasons from Couture, Hertl, and 57 games of Timo. I dont think they're anywhere near even that level right now