GDT: 2024-25 season game 3 LA Kings vs Ottawa Senators @10:00am (Again) 10/14/24

[Buddy The Elf]

The game was in Canada. It was Thanksgiving Day for them.

It was 1pm over there.

I know the time difference but didn't know it was a Canadian holiday too. That said, I'm pretty sure they've played day games on other holidays if not Columbus/Indigenous day. I want to say MLK day they've done it too. Although more people get that day off I think. Either way I was just complaining for the sake of it. Generally speaking, I don't like day games and I think I'm not alone on that. That's all I was trying to say.

 

[Schmooley]

Yep, have you read Doug MacLean's book? Forget the name of it, picked it up the other week, he talks about scouting/drafting, and his time and what he's seen etc, really interesting behind the scenes etc, talks about how he messed up with Zherdev etc.

I will check this out. When I was a kid Doug lived in the area and would come out to the rink and skate with us. He was the nicest guy and his whole family was very nice.

 

[johnjm22]

I know the time difference but didn't know it was a Canadian holiday too. That said, I'm pretty sure they've played day games on other holidays if not Columbus/Indigenous day. I want to say MLK day they've done it too. Although more people get that day off I think. Either way I was just complaining for the sake of it. Generally speaking, I don't like day games and I think I'm not alone on that. That's all I was trying to say.

I think games start too late. 7:30PM local time is ridiculous.

 

[kingsboy11]

How did Brandt Clarke look this game?

I thought he didn't look good in games 1 and 2, but then he goes and scores 3 Powerplay points lol

He was much better in game 3, but there's still room for improvement. Its encouraging to see him bounce back from the first 2 games

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I will check this out. When I was a kid Doug lived in the area and would come out to the rink and skate with us. He was the nicest guy and his whole family was very nice.

It's a good read, I can't get my hands on enough of the "behind the scenes" stuff like this, but this one in particular puts the lens on GMS and their staff, at least on his etc, he is making assumptions that most front offices work the way his did etc.

 

[Faterson]

I think games start too late. 7:30PM local time is ridiculous.

A lot less ridiculous than 1:30 AM and 1 AM, though, I'd say, which are the next two puckdrop times in Toronto and Montreal. (Thank heavens for NHL.tv and its "delayed live" mode for breakfast as usual.)

 

[Statto]

also worth noting is that scouting is an advisory department along with development, analytics etc

Ultimately decisions are made by the front office

Absolutely…. But you’d like to think the information they provide carries some weight and value. Don’t get me wrong I’m over the whole PLD thing but it’s not as if it wasn’t predictable. Either the pro scouting said ‘PLD is great’ and supported the trade or they didn’t and the trade happened anyway. Either way there’s an issue somewhere there.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Absolutely…. But you’d like to think the information they provide carries some weight and value. Don’t get me wrong I’m over the whole PLD thing but it’s not as if it wasn’t predictable. Either the pro scouting said ‘PLD is great’ and supported the trade or they didn’t and the trade happened anyway. Either way there’s an issue somewhere there.

It was more probably like this, we talked to player who know him, they like him, we think we can adapt him to our style, and motivate him, etc etc

People bitch about so much that was given up, but in reality, it was Vilardi and a 2nd, and clearly they had doubts on Vilardi.

 

[Statto]

It was more probably like this, we talked to player who know him, they like him, we think we can adapt him to our style, and motivate him, etc etc

People bitch about so much that was given up, but in reality, it was Vilardi and a 2nd, and clearly they had doubts on Vilardi.

Possibly but if you make a move like that you ‘should’ use all available information.

I agree largely on the trade because Kupari was a throw in and Iaffalo was a salary dump (from a Kings perspective). Like the Faber trade in term of trade value I’m more upset with the pick. The value for PLD didn’t warrant the pick. I didn’t like giving up GV but in terms of value (ignoring the red flags) it was fair without the 2nd round pick.

Then there are the red flags they ignored. It’s hard to justify it because we both often acknowledge that we (all the board posters) know very little, in reality, about how things really are. However pretty much everyone saw this coming. The question is ultimately one of ‘who’ said the red flags were no issue? Because whomever that was should be gone, or at least left doing their day job only. I’m past the deal itself but I want to be certain there was some accountability for it. I know I/we will never get that (or shouldn’t in a professional setup) but I still want it. So I’ll just hope that lessons were learned.

 

[Lt Dan]

People bitch about so much that was given up, but in reality, it was Vilardi and a 2nd,

It wasn't even close. This is the extent of the trade. Remember, you have to include the trades that created the cap space for the Dubois contract

Last June it was the Cal Petersen trade that saw LA ship out Petersen, this year’s second-round draft pick, Sean Walker, and prospect Helge Grans while retaining two million of Ivan Provorov’s salary as he plays in Columbus (comes off the books after this upcoming season) and receiving two AHL players in Hayden Hodgson and Kevin Connauton.

Sean Durzi was flipped to Arizona for a 2024 second-round pick. That draft pick was thrown into the sign-and-trade with the Winnipeg Jets that landed Dubois in California for Gabriel Vilardi, Rasmus Kupari, and Alex Iafallo.

The Kings ultimately gave up, Walker, Durzi, Vilardi, AI, and took on 2 mil of salary for two seasons.
Yes, Grans and Kupari didn't have much, if any value. But in separate deals Walker and AI could have fetched pretty good returns

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

It wasn't even close. This is the extent of the trade. Remember, you have to include the trades that created the cap space for the Dubois contract

Last June it was the Cal Petersen trade that saw LA ship out Petersen, this year’s second-round draft pick, Sean Walker, and prospect Helge Grans while retaining two million of Ivan Provorov’s salary as he plays in Columbus (comes off the books after this upcoming season) and receiving two AHL players in Hayden Hodgson and Kevin Connauton.



The Kings ultimately gave up, Walker, Durzi, Vilardi, AI, and took on 2 mil of salary for two seasons.
Yes, Grans and Kupari didn't have much, if any value. But in separate deals Walker and AI could have fetched pretty good returns

Walker wouldn't have gotten anything, coming off of a major injury, and not playing well yet...you are deluding yourself if you think he would have gotten more than a 4th at that point in time,

Same with Iafallo, mid 6, inflated salary, not much value there,

Durzi was basically run out of town,

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Possibly but if you make a move like that you ‘should’ use all available information.

I agree largely on the trade because Kupari was a throw in and Iaffalo was a salary dump (from a Kings perspective). Like the Faber trade in term of trade value I’m more upset with the pick. The value for PLD didn’t warrant the pick. I didn’t like giving up GV but in terms of value (ignoring the red flags) it was fair without the 2nd round pick.

Then there are the red flags they ignored. It’s hard to justify it because we both often acknowledge that we (all the board posters) know very little, in reality, about how things really are. However pretty much everyone saw this coming. The question is ultimately one of ‘who’ said the red flags were no issue? Because whomever that was should be gone, or at least left doing their day job only. I’m past the deal itself but I want to be certain there was some accountability for it. I know I/we will never get that (or shouldn’t in a professional setup) but I still want it. So I’ll just hope that lessons were learned.

It's not even not seeing the red flags, it's seeing them, and believing your culture/team/leadership can carry past those flags, the learning will occur in not reaching for a player like that in the future, maybe, again, in reality they gave up little value, for a shot at a homerun, you can argue it wasn't worth it etc, all of tht, and that's a separate argument, but they thought their leadership/team etc, can get Dubois past the flags, and they were wrong, not sure if I don't want them not taking shots like that when the opportunity is there, because the flip side is, what if they are right. Players sometimes will have lights come in much later in their careers.

 

[Statto]

It wasn't even close. This is the extent of the trade. Remember, you have to include the trades that created the cap space for the Dubois contract

Last June it was the Cal Petersen trade that saw LA ship out Petersen, this year’s second-round draft pick, Sean Walker, and prospect Helge Grans while retaining two million of Ivan Provorov’s salary as he plays in Columbus (comes off the books after this upcoming season) and receiving two AHL players in Hayden Hodgson and Kevin Connauton.



The Kings ultimately gave up, Walker, Durzi, Vilardi, AI, and took on 2 mil of salary for two seasons.
Yes, Grans and Kupari didn't have much, if any value. But in separate deals Walker and AI could have fetched pretty good returns

I struggle to lump in the 2 deals as they had to get rid of Petersen either way. They were doing that regardless of whether the PLD deal happened or not. Yes, it gave them cap space which they then blew but that’s the asset, not what they traded for it - otherwise you’re double counting assets (unless you ignore the dumb contract).

It's not even not seeing the red flags, it's seeing them, and believing your culture/team/leadership can carry past those flags, the learning will occur in not reaching for a player like that in the future, maybe, again, in reality they gave up little value, for a shot at a homerun, you can argue it wasn't worth it etc, all of tht, and that's a separate argument, but they thought their leadership/team etc, can get Dubois past the flags, and they were wrong, not sure if I don't want them not taking shots like that when the opportunity is there, because the flip side is, what if they are right. Players sometimes will have lights come in much later in their careers.

Nothing wrong with taking a shot/gamble but it needs to be an educated/smart one. It never felt like it was going to pay off… not once. It was a huge miss.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I struggle to lump in the 2 deals as they had to get rid of Petersen either way. They were doing that regardless of whether the PLD deal happened or not. Yes, it gave them cap space which they then blew but that’s the asset, not what they traded for it - otherwise you’re double counting assets (unless you ignore the dumb contract).


Nothing wrong with taking a shot/gamble but it needs to be an educated/smart one. It never felt like it was going to pay off… not once. It was a huge miss.

Definitely a miss, as to felt like it was going to payoff, I mean, its LA Kings hockey, for 60 years nothing feels like it's going to pay off.....I still think it's a shot you have to take...even if you miss.

 

[All The Kings Men]

People bitch about so much that was given up, but in reality, it was Vilardi and a 2nd, and clearly they had doubts on Vilardi.

I hate this opinion so much.

 

[King'sPawn]

I hate this opinion so much.

It's pretty silly.

The Kings have said PLD is a player they wanted. The trade was about him, not Vilardi.

And they wouldn't have invested 6 years into him, especially with his injuries, if they didn't believe in him.

But anything to defend a bad move I guess.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I hate this opinion so much.

Which part, that they had doubts on Vilardi? If so, I draw that conclusion based on the fact that during his last contract year, purportedly they did not reach out at all for an extension, that screams doubts to me.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

It's pretty silly.

The Kings have said PLD is a player they wanted. The trade was about him, not Vilardi.

And they wouldn't have invested 6 years into him, especially with his injuries, if they didn't believe in him.

But anything to defend a bad move I guess.

Question, did they offer Vilardi an extension at any time before the trade? If they "wanted" that player, don't you think they would have offered something?

 

[All The Kings Men]

Which part, that they had doubts on Vilardi? If so, I draw that conclusion based on the fact that during his last contract year, purportedly they did not reach out at all for an extension, that screams doubts to me.

I've seen so many people hand wave away any analysis of trades they didn't like as "well it was just Lucic for Jones... what if it worked?!"

Opportunity Cost is a thing

It wasn't Vilardi for PLD

It was PLD for

Vilardi AND anything else they could have got for Vilardi
Kupari AND anything else they could have got for Kupari
Iafallo AND anything else they could have got for Iafallo
a 2nd round pick (AND whatever else they could have traded Sean Durzi for)

AND

Any additional upgrades or moves that could have been made with the cap space allocated to Dubois

It was a massive investment that had knock on effects up and down the roster and the organization and it really annoys me when people try to oversimplify it as just a simple one for one transaction

It's just a way of looking at the industry that I find short sighted and a limited understanding of the consequences of choices

As for the doubts on Vilardi...

I have no idea if they had doubts on Vilardi or not but just like the "Faber would never sign here" I promise you it's more complicate than any of you think it is and when people confidently say they know what another person thinks or feels it's almost never accurate.

 

[Lt Dan]

I hate this opinion so much.

Which do you hate more?

That opinion or thinking it is okay to put milk in the bowl before cereal?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I've seen so many people hand wave away any analysis of trades they didn't like as "well it was just Lucic for Jones... what if it worked?!"

Opportunity Cost is a thing

It wasn't Vilardi for PLD

It was PLD for

Vilardi AND anything else they could have got for Vilardi
Kupari AND anything else they could have got for Kupari
Iafallo AND anything else they could have got for Iafallo
a 2nd round pick (AND whatever else they could have traded Sean Durzi for)

AND

Any additional upgrades or moves that could have been made with the cap space allocated to Dubois

It was a massive investment that had knock on effects up and down the roster and the organization and it really annoys me when people try to oversimplify it as just a simple one for one transaction

It's just a way of looking at the industry that I find short sighted and a limited understanding of the consequences of choices

As for the doubts on Vilardi...

I have no idea if they had doubts on Vilardi or not but just like the "Faber would never sign here" I promise you it's more complicate than any of you think it is and when people confidently say they know what another person thinks or feels it's almost never accurate.

In all seriousness, that goes for any trade ever made, in the history of sport.

Yea, it's Vilardi AND anything they could have gotten for him in his 15 year career...or 10 year career. plus what you get for them, and then what you get for them, and then what you get for them, I mean you can literally just keep building that tree.

That serves ZERO purpose in reality, yes opportunity cost is a thing, 100%, but Kupari had zero value, Iafallo had very very limited value, Vilardi got you the shot at PLD, right, wrong, indifferent, that was the cost of getting that shot, it turned out horrible, no doubt about it, but to go on about it's not just Vilardi, it's everything that ever could have been, seems a bit nonsensical.

As far as doubts on Vilardi, absolutely it's more complicated, but to wave it away, seems again, non-sensical, they absolutely had doubts on him, otherwise, why would they not offer an extension?

 

[All The Kings Men]

In all seriousness, that goes for any trade ever made, in the history of sport.

Sure but most people don't spend a lot of time dissecting Amadio for Wolanin and we all understand the options were somewhat limited.

Not so in this trade.

Yea, it's Vilardi AND anything they could have gotten for him in his 15 year career...or 10 year career. plus what you get for them, and then what you get for them, and then what you get for them, I mean you can literally just keep building that tree.

Ok then you know it's more complicated than your original suggestion. Cool.

That serves ZERO purpose in reality, yes opportunity cost is a thing, 100%, but Kupari had zero value, Iafallo had very very limited value, Vilardi got you the shot at PLD, right, wrong, indifferent, that was the cost of getting that shot, it turned out horrible, no doubt about it, but to go on about it's not just Vilardi, it's everything that ever could have been, seems a bit nonsensical.

I disagree. You're speculating wildly about stuff you just don't know.

Kupari had no value? Iafallo had limited value? Says who? Also... maybe that limited value as perceived by you could turn into a Matt Roy or a Jordan Nolan.

This is just more arbitrary hand waving.

If you actually want to evaluate something you can't just toss out details that don't interest you.

As far as doubts on Vilardi, absolutely it's more complicated, but to wave it away, seems again, non-sensical, they absolutely had doubts on him, otherwise, why would they not offer an extension?

Unless you're willing to discuss specific concerns or doubts that were held I'm not interested in a speculative conversation.

You also completely ignored the knock on effects I mentioned due to the cap.

I've already probably said way more than I should have so I'm gonna bow out.

Bad trade. For multiple reasons.

Which do you hate more?

That opinion or thinking it is okay to put milk in the bowl before cereal?

I don't hate putting milk in first I just dont understand it

but as I get older i try to decrease the amount of hatred I place on things I dont understand


and while I fully get that this is the Lt Dan style of humorous post... in general... I find shitting on people's food choices to be a tired trope and I'll be happy when it's dead and buried

 

[johnjm22]

And there were no reasons to have doubts about PLD before the trade. He was a sure thing.

It's not like had the same issues with every team going all the way back to Junior.

 

[johnjm22]

It's not like the thing he was most known for was the laziest shift of all time. Nothing like that.

 

[Statto]

It was PLD for

Vilardi AND anything else they could have got for Vilardi
Kupari AND anything else they could have got for Kupari
Iafallo AND anything else they could have got for Iafallo
a 2nd round pick (AND whatever else they could have traded Sean Durzi for)

Agreed although in theory it could go the other way on any trade. So for example 3 months later Iafallo costs a 1st rd pick to dump him. So, what the assets could get at a later date (in any trade) could be better or worse than what they garner in the moment.

So I think you can only assess in the moment rather than ‘what ifs’ and in the moment it was bad - just an opinion obviously.