GDT: 2024-25 season game 10 LA Kings vs San Jose Sharks @7:00pm 10/29/24

[tigermask48]

That’s why I will say that Kopitar and Doughty are the primary reason for the Kings greatest successes and are also the reason for the Kings greatest failures. We’ve been a bad team for many years now and for some reason Kopitar/Doughty have not been moved despite the Kings not being able to be viable for many years now.

We can speculate that Kopitar is a good old boy who puts his head down and does what he’s told or we can also speculate that this guy re-signed with the Kings while they suck for some big money. You can easily speculate that both Kopitar and Doughty have a massive say in their deployment which makes their ego hurt younger players like Byfield.

We can only speculate but those two had to have been gone with Sutter.

I've been having this fleeting thought recently regarding Doughty and Kopi and it's a conversation for a different time. Bit I do think the thought should be thrown put there.

At some point does being the best player at your position to play for a team just become not enough for jersey retirement, and at what point does it start tarnishing their legacy?

Not saying we are there, or even that we should consider it. But is it possible?

 

[Herby]

TBH - it all comes down to Byfield. There's other players that need to be better but the Kings desperately need him to be a star to have a chance of being a top 10 team this year. And I say that as a huge Byfield fan/believer.

Going into this season, myself and many others said this Kings team would go as far as Byfield would take them. So far, that's really not looking great. And as a result the Kings aren't looking great either.

If Byfield continues to struggle, yeah this team is going to be mid and that's super disappointing. If he can turn it around and start to look like the player we saw in preseason, this team starts to look really dangerous.

Byfield looked like a sure-fire PPG player in preseason. Let's just assume hypothetically, that he continued that great play into the regular season and was sitting at ~10 points right now. He'd probably be playing 1C already if that was the case based on how Kopi has looked (admittedly cold/not amazing at times) and how Danault has struggled.

Byfield being the 1C we need him to be would completely change the outlook of this Kings team. They could ice a lineup like this - and have star power at the top of the lineup and great depth throughout:
Fiala - Byfield - Kempe
Moore - Kopitar - Foegele
Turcotte - Danault - Laferriere
Lee - Thomas (Lewis) - Jeannot

Anderson - Clarke
Gavrikov - Spence
Edmundson - Burroughs

The defense is still questionable - but actually becomes really really solid once Doughty returns.

THAT'S the kind of lineup the Kings need to have to be formidable. That lineup, assuming players are pulling their weight and playing to their potential, would be very very solid. Byfield needs to turn it around ASAP. If he doesn't. the Kings should sell off a few players and treat this as a building year for next year.


Yes..... I've said many times the Kings need Clarke and Byfield to be stars to have a chance. Clarke doesn't necessarily need to be a star this year, just needs to contribute like he's been doing. Byfield on the other hand, really needs to step it up.

If Byfield isn't a star, I agree this team is screwed. I still have hope that he'll turn it around / figure it out.

The problem with this lineup is you can't undo the horrible decisions made by Blake the last 5 years or so, poor roster construction and piss poor development choice.

I do agree QB long-term would be better to play C, but you need to look at this through the lens of Rob Blake and Luc Robitaille, because unfortunately they make the decisions, and they have labeled this team a contender.

The second you move QB to C you create problems in the immediate (which is all they care about)

1. QB just hasn't been very good at C right now, so it's unrealistic to expect him to be the 1C and face other teams top checkers and defenseman. Since the Kings had him in the AHL instead of the NHL at 18, and then have had him at W the last two years he has very little experience playing the position and it showed this season. For a team thats President and GM claim to be a contender and you claim is "formidable", it's tough to have learning on the job, especially as a 1C for a faux contender. That is why the learning on the job should have happened in the 2020/2021 and 2021/2022 seasons, but the age 18 season he was stupidly sent to the AHL, and then the age 19 season and since then the team has been "contenders" , and it's tough to learn on the job. QB is way further along if they just say at the start of the 2020/2021 season, go play C , play your game, learn from your mistakes and get better. But that didn't happen because the Kings are obsessed with slow-cooking players in the AHL (which really damaged QB's overall prospects) and foolishly ended their rebuild by bringing in Danault (which further damaged QB's prospects of playing C)

2. As soon as QB moves to C the wing situation gets really awful. Even with QB as a winger, they still lack the required skill (especially goal-scoring) to have a championshiop roster. You take him away and it's a bottom 1/3 wingers. And in the immediate is QB/Kopitar/Danault with Turcotte at wing really better than Kopitar/Danault/Turcotte with QB at wing? The answer is no, and since all BLuc care about is the immediate, that is why the change was made.

3. You screw Turcotte again (a common theme for Blake), right as he's settling into a role as a 3C and playing well, you bump him to the wing. The whole confidence and growing and developing confidence thing goes out the window yet again. Turcotte was never given a chance to gain confidence and be a dominant player in college like his peers were, he was thrown to the wolves in the AHL as a teenager after one of the worst college signings I've seen in 20+ years of following it closely, and then was frequently injured and poorly deployed in the AHL. He finally now, 5+ years after being a Top 5 pick has settled into a pretty important role as 3C and we are going to send him to the wing? Why? If you want to move QB back to C, well then the next move should be trading Danault for a goal-scoring winger and roll with Kopitar/Byfield/Turcotte as your Top 3 centers. Danault has always been the biggest obstacle to QB getting run at C, you have to remove that obstacle and improve areas of weakness elsewhere if you are commiting to QB at C right now.

Like just relax guys. What harm does it do to give this team another 10-15 more games to see if they can figure it out?? Currently, we have to hope for 1 of 2 outcomes. Either the Kings turn it around and a guy like Byfield starts to play like a star and the Kings start to look like they have the potential to make some noise in the playoffs (not just make the playoffs) or the Kings completely fall apart to the point where we get a top 10 pick and new management/coaching. I'm choosing to hope for the 1st outcome because it's more fun and gives us a chance to win. I understand I may be 'wrong'. I understand I may be 'disappointed'. And I'm okay with that. Personally, I'd rather be wrong and disappointed than spend my time sitting around hoping my team does poorly. Now I understand some of you have been fans for 30-40+ years and that's weighed on you over the years and you're fed up. That's fine and to an extent I definitely get it. To an extent, I'm fed up too. But maybe don't ruin it for other people that maybe do still want to have faith/hope in their team???

You are talking about two extremes (winning playoff rounds or picking in the top 10) and completely ignoring that it's way more likely, that they finish exactly as they have the previous three years. They will be a 10-16 team in the NHL that is going to get exposed by a more talented and better constructed roster in the playoffs.

Make noise in playoffs - 15%
Pick in the Top 10 - 10%
Stay in the black hole and lose in round 1 - 75%

Why do we need to "wait and see what they are".... we have over 250 games of data the last 3 years that show us exactly what they are. Why should we ignore that for 10-15 games this season?

Will a fourth season in a row of losing to Edmonton be enough?

 

[Sol]

I've been having this fleeting thought recently regarding Doughty and Kopi and it's a conversation for a different time. Bit I do think the thought should be thrown put there.

At some point does being the best player at your position to play for a team just become not enough for jersey retirement, and at what point does it start tarnishing their legacy?

Not saying we are there, or even that we should consider it. But is it possible?

I mean I think it has already hurt Kopitars legacy a bit because people can easily say “what has Kopitar done as captain”? I’m not shitting on Kopitar because I think he’s a good player but when it comes to leadership and his role on the Kings I got to question his motives as well as managements. I have a hard time believing personally that Kopitar doesn’t want to be top dog and they’re forcing him to be. He has way too much love in the organization to go against his desires. Doughty I’m even more certain with is the case with him.

 

[SmytheKing]

Just conveniently forgetting that the 2012 Kings had three Hall of Fame players in their primes, at the three most important positions on an NHL roster.

…and that they were two points from 3rd in the conference as well as being the 3rd best team in the nhl for the last two months of the season.

 

[Schrute farms]

That’s why I will say that Kopitar and Doughty are the primary reason for the Kings greatest successes and are also the reason for the Kings greatest failures. We’ve been a bad team for many years now and for some reason Kopitar/Doughty have not been moved despite the Kings not being able to be viable for many years now.

We can speculate that Kopitar is a good old boy who puts his head down and does what he’s told or we can also speculate that this guy re-signed with the Kings while they suck for some big money. You can easily speculate that both Kopitar and Doughty have a massive say in their deployment which makes their ego hurt younger players like Byfield.

We can only speculate but those two had to have been gone with Sutter.

I think Drew is the (one & only) internal team member culprit for pushing/demanding roster upgrades and attempting to turn this roster (& org mindset) into a playoff team.

I honestly don't think Kopi had any direct input and organizational push into that change. Indirectly -- yes. Blake (& probably Luc) thought of themselves as their time as Kings players at similar times as Kopi and them wanting to leave in order to go for the Cup rather than a rebuilding Kings process. I seriously think Kopi would have accepted his role as a mentor and moving down a line or two for the good of the youth as they progressed in their development, etc.

 

[The Butcher]

If you're Doughty and you're watching these games, what are you thinking?

He wants to contend. It's got to be sinking in that it won't happen in LA.

Submit your trade list Drew.

Bundle him with Fiala, think of the return on that.

 

[tigermask48]

I seriously think Kopi would have accepted his role as a mentor and moving down a line or two for the good of the youth as they progressed in their development, etc.

But we've seen no proof of this and in fact the opposite is true. At what point do you stop trusting the player knows what's best and start telling him what's best?

 

[SaltyElkHunter]

People put Kopitar and Drew on a pedastal like all they care about is what best for the franchise. They care about what’s best for the team they are playing on today. Case in point Luc and Rob!

AEG playing this weird denial game of it’s ok to let the inmates run the asylum!

 

[chris kontos]

They should have traded doughty a long time ago. Like when he felt he was competent enough to dictate the teams direction in the future.
(Repeat post #100000000000)

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

You are talking about two extremes (winning playoff rounds or picking in the top 10) and completely ignoring that it's way more likely, that they finish exactly as they have the previous three years. They will be a 10-16 team in the NHL that is going to get exposed by a more talented and better constructed roster in the playoffs.

Make noise in playoffs - 15%
Pick in the Top 10 - 10%
Stay in the black hole and lose in round 1 - 75%

Why do we need to "wait and see what they are".... we have over 250 games of data the last 3 years that show us exactly what they are. Why should we ignore that for 10-15 games this season?

Will a fourth season in a row of losing to Edmonton be enough?

No I'm not.... Did you read my posts???

I've said multiple times this morning that being a team in the middle of the pack would be terrible for the Kings. I didn't mention it in this part of this post because I felt it was obvious I was saying the two options we have to hope for as fans are either playoff success or a top 10 pick. I didn't say those were the only two options for the Kings (because obviously that's not the case).

I've also said multiple times that if the Kings DO continue to struggle, the best thing for them to do would be to sell off a few players and just use this as a building year to give the youth as much experience as possible.

As for the "why do we need to wait and see what they are" question... The answer is very simple. Because this is a different team than we've had for the last 3 years (Feels a little silly that I need to say that lol). We have a 21 year old Clarke on pace for 65 points. That's new. We have a 24 year old Turcotte looking like an effective top 9 player. That's new. We have a new starting goaltender. We have a 23 year old Laferriere that looks like he could be a legit 60+ point winger. That's new too. Andre Lee is new. Akil Thomas is new (and should be playing more). We have a 22 year old Quinton Byfield that should be breaking out as a superstar in this league (hasn't worked out so far but we know he has the talent). Foegele is new. Jeannot is new. Edmundson is new. Hell, they're even playing a slightly different system.

Obviously another 1st round exit against Edmonton would be a huge failure. So I'll ask again... What's the harm in giving this team another 10-15 games before hitting the panic button? I'm not saying we should ignore organizational failures and I'm not saying we should ignore the teams failures / issues over the last couple years... I'm just saying there's a chance this Kings team is significantly better than we think - because to date, they've played like crap. So maybe let's wait to see if these guys turn it around and start playing decent hockey before we claim it's all a lost cause?

I really don't understand why that's such a crazy idea to some people on these boards. Like I get if you don't believe the team will turn it around and I get if you don't think this team is good enough even if they do start playing better but regardless why not give it time?? There's literally no downside at this point. If we were weeks away from the trade deadline it'd be a different story but we aren't. We're 10 games into the f**king season (and somehow in 2nd place in the division despite a bad start) and everyone just wants to give up. I mean talk about loser behavior / mindset.

This team is 100% still trying to figure things out and working through some growing pains. Hopefully they figure it out and establish some chemistry throughout the lineup and some of the key players that have been struggling turn things around. If that doesn't happen, hopefully everything falls apart so ownership realizes significant changes are needed to the front office.

 

[Lt Dan]

This team is 100% still trying to figure things out and working through some growing pains. Hopefully they figure it out and establish some chemistry throughout the lineup and some of the key players that have been struggling turn things around

 

[Schmooley]

This team is 100% still trying to figure things out and working through some growing pains. Hopefully they figure it out and establish some chemistry throughout the lineup and some of the key players that have been struggling turn things around. If that doesn't happen, hopefully everything falls apart so ownership realizes significant changes are needed to the front office.

I would be fully on board with you if it was just growing pains. I do think thats part of it and am willing to give it more time.
But you cant look away from the guys mailing it in. Kopitar and Kempe dont look interested.
Danault and Moore who have previously embraced being lunch pail type players winning matchups against other teams top lines are not engaged and lacking hustle.
These are things that have to be addressed before chemistry can be form.

 

[crassbonanza]

It’s fair to speculate at this point the question “why” is Kopitar still the number 1 center and treated as if he’s in his prime still.

Players like Getzlaf in recent memory told the team to move himself down the line up to create chances for other players.

It’s fair to assume that Kopitar with all the clout he has on the team can dictate his role on the Kings. Same goes for Doughty.

There is no real reason why Byfield shouldn’t be the number 1 center right now. Kopitar quite literally cannot keep the same energy level up as he used to. Third liner with limited ice time will keep him fresh and producing.

I think the reason why Kopitar is still the number 1 center is that nobody else has taken over that position from him. I have long advocated for Kopitar/Doughty to play fewer minutes, especially during the tanking seasons, but I do not believe in any way that Kopitar is dictating coaching decisions. He has never in his entire career been anything other than a team player. I think there is a real reason why Byfield is not the number 1 center right now and it is because he has only put up 4 assists in 178 minutes of ice time. He is only 11 minutes behind Kopi in TOI, but has 5 less points. BLuc/Hiller are not going to rely on Byfield to lead this team offensively when they will likely be fired if they miss the playoffs. They are going to hope Kopi can put up another 70+ point season because they do not have any other options. Again, I do agree that Kopi should play fewer minutes, but I seriously dislike people shitting on him as if he is the key factor in prospects not developing. This whole mess stems from the little coup that Luc pulled with promises of being a cup contender.

 

[Schrute farms]

But we've seen no proof of this and in fact the opposite is true. At what point do you stop trusting the player knows what's best and start telling him what's best?

What proof (i.e., "in fact the opposite") are you aware of that I am not? I'd like to know.
The only fact that i know is DD making comments in media and to the team following the last year of our so-called rebuild -- weeks later Blake acquires PD.
I've neither heard or seen anything tied to Kopi saying anything related to the team/FO needs to make moves. Personally, i think people are apply the Bluc moves onto Kopi -- basically throwing Kopi in with DD.
Does anyone really think Kopi is telling the coach/etc. to play him WAY too many minutes (like DD) and play him on the PP (like DD).

 

[King'sPawn]

It's a good quality in Kopitar and Doughty (as well as any competitive athlete) to hate to lose. I don't have an issue with them not being keen on rebuilding. To an extent.

It was Blake's job as a manager to get them on board with a plan and move them if they wouldn't go along. If Blake can't get that buy in, that's on Blake.

I do think Kopitar, by general disposition (I don't know the players personally) would have been more ambivalent with a rebuild.

The entire team, minus Turcotte, Laferriere, and Clarke, have been underwhelming.

And at this point I think I'd just keep Byfield on wing. He finally adjusted to it. And his strength may be better suited on the boards anyway.

 

[tigermask48]

What proof (i.e., "in fact the opposite") are you aware of that I am not? I'd like to know.
The only fact that i know is DD making comments in media and to the team following the last year of our so-called rebuild -- weeks later Blake acquires PD.
I've neither heard or seen anything tied to Kopi saying anything related to the team/FO needs to make moves. Personally, i think people are apply the Bluc moves onto Kopi -- basically throwing Kopi in with DD.
Does anyone really think Kopi is telling the coach/etc. to play him WAY too many minutes (like DD) and play him on the PP (like DD).

The fact that Kopitar is still the 1C on this team, and that almost every move made with the forwards has been done to prop him up? The fact that up until this year he was still leading the Kings in icetime/game despite fading almost every year down the stretch? Nothing has shown any willingness to accept or ask for a reduced role.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

The fact that Kopitar is still the 1C on this team, and that almost every move made with the forwards has been done to prop him up? The fact that up until this year he was still leading the Kings in icetime/game despite fading almost every year down the stretch? Nothing has shown any willingness to accept or ask for a reduced role.

And replace those minutes with who? That's what people are trying to tell you, no one has or is stepping up to take those....

 

[Sol]

I think the reason why Kopitar is still the number 1 center is that nobody else has taken over that position from him. I have long advocated for Kopitar/Doughty to play fewer minutes, especially during the tanking seasons, but I do not believe in any way that Kopitar is dictating coaching decisions. He has never in his entire career been anything other than a team player. I think there is a real reason why Byfield is not the number 1 center right now and it is because he has only put up 4 assists in 178 minutes of ice time. He is only 11 minutes behind Kopi in TOI, but has 5 less points. BLuc/Hiller are not going to rely on Byfield to lead this team offensively when they will likely be fired if they miss the playoffs. They are going to hope Kopi can put up another 70+ point season because they do not have any other options. Again, I do agree that Kopi should play fewer minutes, but I seriously dislike people shitting on him as if he is the key factor in prospects not developing. This whole mess stems from the little coup that Luc pulled with promises of being a cup contender.

This is honestly such bullshit. If the Kings allowed anyone to at least even try the position I’d agree with you. That position has been locked down exclusively objectively. And another thing, none of us have evidence to support what Kopitars motives are. He can either be an entitled brat or he’s truly a team player. I am only leaning to the fact he might be entitled purely because I am sure he has say in his deployment yet he’s still number 1 at age 50.
Doesn’t add up.

 

[crassbonanza]

This is honestly such bullshit. If the Kings allowed anyone to at least even try the position I’d agree with you. That position has been locked down exclusively objectively. And another thing, none of us have evidence to support what Kopitars motives are. He can either be an entitled brat or he’s truly a team player. I am only leaning to the fact he might be entitled purely because I am sure he has say in his deployment yet he’s still number 1 at age 50.
Doesn’t add up.

I know you hate Sutter, Lombardi and all of the players from that cup team, so I'm not sure how much you watched them at that time period, but Kopitar has come across as a great guy who puts the team first. We have nearly 2 decades of the guy giving everything for the team and the only counter evidence is you assuming he is an entitled brat.

 

[Schrute farms]

The fact that Kopitar is still the 1C on this team, and that almost every move made with the forwards has been done to prop him up? The fact that up until this year he was still leading the Kings in icetime/game despite fading almost every year down the stretch? Nothing has shown any willingness to accept or ask for a reduced role.

I think we see it way differently. It's the coaches/FO who deem Kopi as the #1 C and keep playing him there. Quite frankly, nobody has come close to taking that spot. What are the coaches supposed to do? I'm sure it's not Kopi saying play me at #1C or else i'm going to create problems. It's on the organization to bring in talent (drafting. developing, trades) to push him down and coaches to give those young guys the time/opportunity. I just don't think Kopi is pulling those string. Unlike DD -- who definitely is the Alpha male in the room.

 

[Sol]

I know you hate Sutter, Lombardi and all of the players from that cup team, so I'm not sure how much you watched them at that time period, but Kopitar has come across as a great guy who puts the team first. We have nearly 2 decades of the guy giving everything for the team and the only counter evidence is you assuming he is an entitled brat.

Correction, I dont hate players, I am organization first and doesn’t matter who dawns the jersey. I don’t glorify athletes. Evidence stands that after Kopitar did become captain the Kings have had nothing but failure. If you’re going to attribute team success to Kopitar then I will attribute team failure to him as well.

 

[tny760]

lmao they managed to lose this game?

i couldn't make it through the 3rd

 

[Herby]

No I'm not.... Did you read my posts???

I've said multiple times this morning that being a team in the middle of the pack would be terrible for the Kings. I didn't mention it in this part of this post because I felt it was obvious I was saying the two options we have to hope for as fans are either playoff success or a top 10 pick. I didn't say those were the only two options for the Kings (because obviously that's not the case).

I've also said multiple times that if the Kings DO continue to struggle, the best thing for them to do would be to sell off a few players and just use this as a building year to give the youth as much experience as possible.

As for the "why do we need to wait and see what they are" question... The answer is very simple. Because this is a different team than we've had for the last 3 years (Feels a little silly that I need to say that lol). We have a 21 year old Clarke on pace for 65 points. That's new. We have a 24 year old Turcotte looking like an effective top 9 player. That's new. We have a new starting goaltender. We have a 23 year old Laferriere that looks like he could be a legit 60+ point winger. That's new too. Andre Lee is new. Akil Thomas is new (and should be playing more). We have a 22 year old Quinton Byfield that should be breaking out as a superstar in this league (hasn't worked out so far but we know he has the talent). Foegele is new. Jeannot is new. Edmundson is new. Hell, they're even playing a slightly different system.

Obviously another 1st round exit against Edmonton would be a huge failure. So I'll ask again... What's the harm in giving this team another 10-15 games before hitting the panic button? I'm not saying we should ignore organizational failures and I'm not saying we should ignore the teams failures / issues over the last couple years... I'm just saying there's a chance this Kings team is significantly better than we think - because to date, they've played like crap. So maybe let's wait to see if these guys turn it around and start playing decent hockey before we claim it's all a lost cause?

I really don't understand why that's such a crazy idea to some people on these boards. Like I get if you don't believe the team will turn it around and I get if you don't think this team is good enough even if they do start playing better but regardless why not give it time?? There's literally no downside at this point. If we were weeks away from the trade deadline it'd be a different story but we aren't. We're 10 games into the f**king season (and somehow in 2nd place in the division despite a bad start) and everyone just wants to give up. I mean talk about loser behavior / mindset.

This team is 100% still trying to figure things out and working through some growing pains. Hopefully they figure it out and establish some chemistry throughout the lineup and some of the key players that have been struggling turn things around. If that doesn't happen, hopefully everything falls apart so ownership realizes significant changes are needed to the front office.

The same answer I gave people like Axl and GBH three years ago when they asked the same questions, if you watch the sport closely and you look at the rosters that the contenders have and you look at the roster the Kings have it's quite easy to see why there is no need to wait 15-20 games, it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's, and the Kings just don't have enough talent, just like they didn't have enough the previous years.

No elite players, no elite 1C, 1D or goaltender, a coach with no history of success, a GM who hasn't won a playoff series in 7 years. The only thing people cling to is SC's won by the two oldest players on the team, 11 and 13 years ago.

Let me ask you something, if the Ducks or Sharks had the same exact roster the Kings have, and someone in a thread here claimed that the Ducks and Sharks were contenders, would you be agreeing with them?