2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[kudymen]

"You can't just list a few /ATTRIBUTE/ players and use it as proof of your entire world view"

Proceeds to repeat with a different attribute

 

[FlyerNutter]

For a guy that’s obsessed with speed, talent is much more important.

A bunch of Grabner’s isn’t winning shit.

To be more specific, the Flyers value effort above talent - and that’s some weird organizational fetish. We know where it stems from.

 

[freakydallas13]

For a guy that’s obsessed with speed, talent is much more important.

A bunch of Grabner’s isn’t winning shit.

To be more specific, the Flyers value effort above talent - and that’s some weird organizational fetish. We know where it stems from.

I keep saying it, but Justin Bailey can skate like the wind and also do nothing else of value. Speed and nothing else is useless.

 

[deadhead]

View attachment 934128

You never clarified about Drysdale btw. Did the team target him specifically or did they get stuck being forced to trade for him?

Don't know. Probably the best they were offered (with the high 2nd rd pick).

If they could have gotten a legitimate center prospect, I'm sure they would have bit, but since Gauthier was considered a LW, it would have had to be a team with surplus center prospects, and those are few and far between.

Drysdale has speed, and they do covet that, and his potential to be a puck carrier out of the D-zone through the neutral zone. Sanheim was the only D-man with that skill when they obtained Drysdale (York, Zamula, Seeler, Risto don't give you that). Without that threat, teams try to take away passing lanes.

[I think they've been pleasantly surprised with how well Andrae's skating improved (Grans as well) over the summer. Given how many players improved their skating recently, wonder if they revamped their offseason training program.]

Don't think Drysdale's draft position had much impact, 4 years after you're drafted, no one really cares - or Jost would still be worth a 1st rd pick. I figure they probably valued him as a mid-2nd rd pick, and that probably as good as any other offer.

 

[renberg]

Do you think Daniel "Petit Napoléon" Briere is really going to get rid of Giovanni "Il Douché" Tortellini?

At a certain point and time, yes. Hopefully sooner than later. As Appleyard’s stats illustrate, this is a bad team. The time is coming when the fans will see that and start to stay away. Right now the Flyers are benefiting from the Sixers being a grease fire that is drawing attention to them. That will change with fans recognizing how bad the Flyers are under Tortorella.

 

[deadhead]

For a guy that’s obsessed with speed, talent is much more important.

A bunch of Grabner’s isn’t winning shit.

To be more specific, the Flyers value effort above talent - and that’s some weird organizational fetish. We know where it stems from.

Grabner was a pretty good player, I'd love to have a bottom six full of guys like him.

640 games played
seasons of 26, 18, 13, 26 and 25 goals scored at ES.
Averaged 19-11 30 at ES over 82 games for his career.
22 Sh goals scored over his career.

Limited, but within those limitations, a valuable player.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If they have a size fetish, why did they draft 5'11 Jett and trade for Drysdale?

His "size" comment makes sense in the context that Buium is too small for the traditional franchise D-man (Pronger, Hedman, Pietrangelo, et al) role (and too slow to be a Makar type D-man). That is, they didn't value him as highly as amateurs b/c they didn't think his skill set (size/speed) translates into a #1 D-man role. And other teams agreed, since 5 other D-men went before him.

I'd point out that Sanheim didn't fit that role until he added 40 lbs without slowing down.
Now he's a horse who can log big minutes and hold his own in the D-zone without being pushed around.
But it's unusual for a player to fill out to that extent and not lose mobility.

That's not what he said and I am not saying he only drafts large players. For about the tenth time:

Well, when you look at our defense, you have it right. I think Zeev Buium is gonna be a great player, and he’s someone we considered strongly. But with Cam York, Jamie Drysdale, Emil Andrae – at some point, it gets tough to go with the smaller guy. But he’s a fantastic player.

The concern was not Buium's size in a vacuum. It was the way his size stacks with what they currently have on the blueline. It's a Daily Double of poor process.

 

[renberg]

Torts doesn't interest himself in the draft or personnel moves other than generalities.

DH, I don’t believe this for a minute. His actions with demoting players says differently.
Additionally if your statement is true, why would the organization want to keep him around post coaching career which is what he wants to do?

 

[FlyerNutter]

Grabner was a pretty good player, I'd love to have a bottom six full of guys like him.

640 games played
seasons of 26, 18, 13, 26 and 25 goals scored at ES.
Averaged 19-11 30 at ES over 82 games for his career.
22 Sh goals scored over his career.

Limited, but within those limitations, a valuable player.

You’re correct. The Flyers are convinced they can win with a bunch of bottom 6 guys, as long as they are the most try hard bunch.

Everything else other than actual talent is the focus with this team, if it’s not - they sure as shit have no idea how to find/develop it. History shows us that.

 

[ponder719]

You’re correct. The Flyers are convinced they can win with a bunch of bottom 6 guys, as long as they are the most try hard bunch.

This band of idiots can't even listen to Yoda correctly. They got as far as "Try, or do not. There is no do."

 

[freakydallas13]

Don't know. Probably the best they were offered (with the high 2nd rd pick).

If they could have gotten a legitimate center prospect, I'm sure they would have bit, but since Gauthier was considered a LW, it would have had to be a team with surplus center prospects, and those are few and far between.

Drysdale has speed, and they do covet that, and his potential to be a puck carrier out of the D-zone through the neutral zone. Sanheim was the only D-man with that skill when they obtained Drysdale (York, Zamula, Seeler, Risto don't give you that). Without that threat, teams try to take away passing lanes.

[I think they've been pleasantly surprised with how well Andrae's skating improved (Grans as well) over the summer. Given how many players improved their skating recently, wonder if they revamped their offseason training program.]

Don't think Drysdale's draft position had much impact, 4 years after you're drafted, no one really cares - or Jost would still be worth a 1st rd pick. I figure they probably valued him as a mid-2nd rd pick, and that probably as good as any other offer.

You answered your own question about why they chose to target Drysdale then, and the answer is "they didn't".

Helps proves my overall point too, you can't look at a fact like "they traded for Drysdale, a smaller player" and assume the reason was because the team doesn't have a bias for large players. There could be a million reasons the team traded for Drysdale, and in this case we can be confident it wasn't because they valued "smaller players".

 

[deadhead]

That's not what he said and I am not saying he only drafts large players. For about the tenth time:



The concern was not Buium's size in a vacuum. It was the way his size stacks with what they currently have on the blueline. It's a Daily Double of poor process.

It's also an assessment that Buium brings nothing unique to the table, that is, he's better than the smaller D-men they had, and would be a good player, but not special. If they thought he was 1D material his size wouldn't have mattered. This was a polite way of saying that.

Briere said they had Jett in the same tier as Buium.
That's how teams usually organize their board, ordinal ranking is too arbitrary.

"There (were) other good players in that area, also, that we were considering,” Briere said via PHLY’s Charlie O’Connor, “but there wasn’t a big enough difference to go in a different direction."

Which reflects something I believe, it's easier to find smaller puck moving D-men these days (probably b/c they get more opportunity to fill that role at lower levels, the way QBs pass far more at lower levels than a couple decades ago).

Big mobile two way D-men with a complete skill package are far harder to find.

 

[freakydallas13]

It's also an assessment that Buium brings nothing unique to the table

That's not what Briere said at all, that's what you interpret his words to mean.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Check back in three years. Look at any 'redraft,' half the players move down substantially.

Yeah, this is almost certainly not going to be a hindsight thing.

 

[deadhead]

Yeah, this is almost certainly not going to be a hindsight thing.

That's what Custer said.

 

[Beef Invictus]

2) Briere was groomed by Comcast, not by Holmgren or Clarke. Holmgren had no involvement with Maine after it was initially set up, it was a farm club of the Rangers and Bruins, not the Flyers.

3) There is no evidence that Briere isn't on the same page with Torts in terms of the need to rebuild and style of play. Torts doesn't interest himself in the draft or personnel moves other than generalities.

Everyone harps on size and grinders.

Please explain why the Flyers have been one of the smallest teams in the NHL for the last few seasons?

Holmgren put Briere on his path to GMing. He was Briere's boss in the ECHL.

 

[deadhead]

Holmgren put Briere on his path to GMing. He was Briere's boss in the ECHL.

No. He helped set up Maine as a new franchise. After that he had nothing to do with Maine.
They weren't a Flyers affiliate.
They were a Comcast subsidiary (why, I have no clue).

 

[Beef Invictus]

"Briere was groomed by Comcast not anyone else" you have zero proof of this, it's just what you hope is true.

Being groomed by Flyers management is a weird way to have nothing to do with the Flyers.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No. He helped set up Maine as a new franchise. After that he had nothing to do with Maine.
They weren't a Flyers affiliate.
They were a Comcast subsidiary (why, I have no clue).

Considering the Flyers got rid of Maine once they didn't have Briere there, it sure does look like they rebooted that franchise just to give the guy management experience. Which would be an incredible and praiseworthy money-flex.

You have no idea what he had to do with Maine. He set it up and put Briere there. Holmgren. Flyers Manager. Employee of Comcast-Spectator, who manages the Flyers, and who employed Briere as well.

It takes an incredible stretch to pretend this is all exterior to the Flyers. Like saying some disaster is occurring in North Caroline, not the United States.

 

[kudymen]

They weren't a Flyers affiliate.
They were a Comcast subsidiary (why, I have no clue).

How am I reading this?

That a tech / entertainment conglomerate was involved in two hockey organizations and I should go "geee, wonder, why, I have no clue" think there is no connection?

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think it's incredible that Holmgren is forever presented as some shadow-operative boogeyman whose malign influence destroyed the team's current situation, and yet there's simultaneous refusal to face the reality that Briere is in this position because Holmgren started him in this direction.

How am I reading this?

That a tech / entertainment conglomerate was involved in two hockey organizations and I should go "geee, wonder, why, I have no clue" think there is no connection?

Management of the Flyers was management of Maine.

This somehow means there was no connection.

 

[ellja3]

Being groomed by Flyers management is a weird way to have nothing to do with the Flyers.

But - hey - new shade of orange.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

It's also an assessment that Buium brings nothing unique to the table, that is, he's better than the smaller D-men they had, and would be a good player, but not special. If they thought he was 1D material his size wouldn't have mattered. This was a polite way of saying that.

Briere said they had Jett in the same tier as Buium.
That's how teams usually organize their board, ordinal ranking is too arbitrary.

"There (were) other good players in that area, also, that we were considering,” Briere said via PHLY’s Charlie O’Connor, “but there wasn’t a big enough difference to go in a different direction."

Which reflects something I believe, it's easier to find smaller puck moving D-men these days (probably b/c they get more opportunity to fill that role at lower levels, the way QBs pass far more at lower levels than a couple decades ago).

Big mobile two way D-men with a complete skill package are far harder to find.

Let's just say every bit of this is true. This kind of narrow focus in evaluations is the thing I want least in a front office. I don't understand how "they took him because he was a Center" is supposed to be a good thing. Every justification you come up with sounds like undeniably bad process to me. Not even the stuff where I disagree but at least understand. It's just shit.

 

[deadhead]

I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept that Torts/Briere/Jones are running the show, and not the shadow cabal of Holmgren/Clarke.

Doesn't mean it'll work out, but does mean what the FO did a decade ago is irrelevant.

Nor is there anything that suggests continuity, unless you want to suggest that when Torts points to Carolina as a template, that Brind'Amour is a disciple of Clarke?

Tort's stress on fundamentals etc. sounds exactly like what Cooper and Brind'Amour say all the time.
At least when Sullivan says it, you can point to Tort's influence.

Playing fast, hard, fundamentally sound hockey is a mantra of most successful HCs.
Most successful organizations tend to marinate prospects in the AHL instead of rushing them.
Clearing the porch in the D-zone and crashing the net in the O-zone is a key to success for most teams.
Ice hockey ain't NFL football, it's far more about execution than strategy.

Torts/Briere/Jones between them have far more experience with different HCs/GMs/schemes than Holmgren/Clarke ever did. Doubtful they look to the Flyers' past for inspiration.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Let's just say every bit of this is true. This kind of narrow focus in evaluations is the thing I want least in a front office. I don't understand how "they took him because he was a Center" is supposed to be a good thing. Every justification you come up with sounds like undeniably bad process to me. Not even the stuff where I disagree but at least understand. It's just shit.

It also forgets that D is also a need! Buium also addressed a need!

Except they decided he didn't because of vague size reasons!