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Blue Jays Discussion: 2024-25 Off-season: The free agent watch begins (and sometimes old baseball radio broadcasts)

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The Iceman said:
The management needs to prioritize and focus on targets. Not throw contracts at every top FA out there hoping to bring one in.

They are not the best looking dudes at the bar. The Dodgers will always go home with the pretty girl and Atkins goes home to an empty house. Again.
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That doesn't make any sense though. Why shouldn't they try and bring in top players. It's their job to make them better. They've lost out on 3 players. Soto, Ohtani and Roki. They took a shot and it didn't work out. Top players should always be prioritized.
 
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shortfuze said:
That doesn't make any sense though. Why shouldn't they try and bring in top players. It's their job to make them better. They've lost out on 3 players. Soto, Ohtani and Roki. They took a shot and it didn't work out. Top players should always be prioritized.
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The issue is not that they are wasting time in the pursuit of unnatainable free agents. The issue is that they are making foolish errors in the pursuit. Neglecting all other free agents while chasing Ohtani. Offering Soto twice as much as Vlad, thus showing Vlad that he should be asking for more. Burning money on Shaw.

To continue the bar analogy brought up here - this is like seeing a pretty girl sitting alone at a bar and immediately calling your fiance to break off the engagement before you've even approached the bar girl.
 
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Kurtz said:
The issue is not that they are wasting time in the pursuit of unnatainable free agents. The issue is that they are making foolish errors in the pursuit. Neglecting all other free agents while chasing Ohtani. Offering Soto twice as much as Vlad, thus showing Vlad that he should be asking for more. Burning money on Shaw.

To continue the bar analogy brought up here - this is like seeing a pretty girl sitting alone at a bar and immediately calling your fiance to break off the engagement before you've even approached the bar girl.
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Do you know for a fact when they were chasing Otani and Soto, they just locked themselves in a room and turned off their phones? This is a tired narrative, that they can’t negotiate with more than one person at a time.

I’m more pissed that they haven’t figured out what they are doing with Vladdy and Bo.
 
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GoonieFace said:
Do you know for a fact when they were chasing Otani and Soto, they just locked themselves in a room and turned off their phones? This is a tired narrative, that they can’t negotiate with more than one person at a time.

I’m more pissed that they haven’t figured out what they are doing with Vladdy and Bo.
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Yeah, they didn't miss out on anyone while they were waiting trying to sign Ohtani and Soto, either. Unless you think O'Neil is a big miss, I guess.

Going after them was always completely justified. Not getting them and then not pivoting to an adequate backup plan was the problem.
 
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Discoverer said:
Yeah, they didn't miss out on anyone while they were waiting trying to sign Ohtani and Soto, either. Unless you think O'Neil is a big miss, I guess.

Going after them was always completely justified. Not getting them and then not pivoting to an adequate backup plan was the problem.
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Sigh.

Tell me, what do you mean exactly by saying that the problem them not "pivoting to an adequate backup plan"? Why do you think they're unable to make said pivot?
 
Discoverer said:
Yeah, they didn't miss out on anyone while they were waiting trying to sign Ohtani and Soto, either. Unless you think O'Neil is a big miss, I guess.

Going after them was always completely justified. Not getting them and then not pivoting to an adequate backup plan was the problem.
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Agree somewhat. Last year, the free agent crop was kind of trash, so I can see why they didn’t.

This year, I think it’s the uncertainty of Vlad and to a lesser extent Bo, that is keeping players away. That’s the real issue.
 
GoonieFace said:
Do you know for a fact when they were chasing Otani and Soto, they just locked themselves in a room and turned off their phones? This is a tired narrative, that they can’t negotiate with more than one person at a time.

I’m more pissed that they haven’t figured out what they are doing with Vladdy and Bo.
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Do you know for a fact that they haven't figured out what they are doing with Vladdy and Bo?

See how silly that kind of statement is? We don't know anything "for a fact" with these guys because what they're doing is so damn irrational. Obviously when you put out a $700m offer for a guy, your other targets, internal or otherwise, are on pause and may not want to wait around.

The proof is in the results. If you think their plan B for Ohtani for example was always to pivot to vastly overpaying for Turner, KK and IKF, then I don't know what to tell you.
 
Kurtz said:
Sigh.

Tell me, what do you mean exactly by saying that the problem them not "pivoting to an adequate backup plan"? Why do you think they're unable to make said pivot?
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"Not pivoting to an adequate backup plan" means exactly what it says. The problem wasn't the pursuit of Ohtani/Soto, it's that they didn't do anything once those pursuits failed.

I see the Plan B options as individual failures completely unrelated to the pursuit of Ohtani and Soto. I don't think it's that complicated. Who did they miss out on while they were waiting on Soto? Tyler O'Neil? Sure! Maybe Adames too, I guess.

None of the other bats (Teoscar, Walker, Pederson, etc) signed until weeks later. Some are still available.

The same happened last year, where Ohtani was one of the first players to sign and there was still tons of time for them to address the problem.
 
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Kurtz said:
Do you know for a fact that they haven't figured out what they are doing with Vladdy and Bo?

See how silly that kind of statement is? We don't know anything "for a fact" with these guys because what they're doing is so damn irrational. Obviously when you put out a $700m offer for a guy, your other targets, internal or otherwise, are on pause and may not want to wait around.

The proof is in the results. If you think their plan B for Ohtani for example was always to pivot to vastly overpaying for Turner, KK and IKF, then I don't know what to tell you.
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Of course they have no idea what they are doing with Vladdy and Bo (meaning they have no clue what they are doing). They should have either been signed or traded by now. Can’t have it both situations unresolved at this point.
 
Discoverer said:
"Not pivoting to an adequate backup plan" means exactly what it says. The problem wasn't the pursuit of Ohtani/Soto, it's that they didn't do anything once those pursuits failed.

I see the Plan B options as individual failures completely unrelated to the pursuit of Ohtani and Soto. I don't think it's that complicated. Who did they miss out on while they were waiting on Soto? Tyler O'Neil? Sure! Maybe Adames too, I guess.

None of the other bats (Teoscar, Walker, Pederson, etc) signed until weeks later. Some are still available.

The same happened last year, where Ohtani was one of the first players to sign and there was still tons of time for them to address the problem.
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Tyler O'Neil would be great right now, yes. But you're focused on the guys who signed during the pursuit without also considering the missed opportunity cost of not laying down the foundation for your plan B.

Let me give you an example of the difference between a prepared team and a team that seems to be caught with its pants down.

Jays and Yankees were both all-in for Soto. As soon as Soto signed with the Mets, Yankees secured Fried, and completed the deals for Devin Williams and Cody Bellinger. They had an actual plan B where they laid down the foundation for the trades/signings they could immediately execute when their plan A went awry.

What was our pivot?

I think we both agree that they didn't have an adequate plan B. My assertion is that it's because they were fixated on the unattainable girl and ignored the girl next door. I don't know what your assertion is for why their plan B has been a failure - just general incompetence? I guess I can accept that too.
 
Kurtz said:
Tyler O'Neil would be great right now, yes. But you're focused on the guys who signed during the pursuit without also considering the missed opportunity cost of not laying down the foundation for your plan B.

Let me give you an example of the difference between a prepared team and a team that seems to be caught with its pants down.

Jays and Yankees were both all-in for Soto. As soon as Soto signed with the Mets, Yankees secured Fried, and completed the deals for Devin Williams and Cody Bellinger. They had an actual plan B where they laid down the foundation for the trades/signings they could immediately execute when their plan A went awry.

What was our pivot?

I think we both agree that they didn't have an adequate plan B. My assertion is that it's because they were fixated on the unattainable girl and ignored the girl next door. I don't know what your assertion is for why their plan B has been a failure - just general incompetence? I guess I can accept that too.
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Or maybe no one wants to sign here considering they can’t even lock up their own players
 
Cloned said:
Jays are lucky Santander is even listening to them.

Not every player would’ve waited for a team to finish with Plan A, B, C, then D first.
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What makes you think he's listening he's just keeping them on stand bye unless gets an offer from a team he actually wants to sign with. If he doesn't get the deal somewhere else he knows he can fall back to Jays and probably get even more money then they offering now.
 
What really is the jays pay roll? Because it sounds like the jays are willing to spend 300m+ and have no issue with it. Let's see what happens in the next week or so if your sign alonso and you don't think vladdy will resign you trade him I don't believe vlady will be more then a 1st basemen in a few years and will likely just be an every day dh. The rumor was Mark Vientos + for vladdy you take that especially since Vientos is locked 5 years. The risk is that can Vientos perform like he did last year and keep on improving and if he can that's a good trade.
 
Kurtz said:
Tyler O'Neil would be great right now, yes. But you're focused on the guys who signed during the pursuit without also considering the missed opportunity cost of not laying down the foundation for your plan B.

Let me give you an example of the difference between a prepared team and a team that seems to be caught with its pants down.

Jays and Yankees were both all-in for Soto. As soon as Soto signed with the Mets, Yankees secured Fried, and completed the deals for Devin Williams and Cody Bellinger. They had an actual plan B where they laid down the foundation for the trades/signings they could immediately execute when their plan A went awry.

What was our pivot?

I think we both agree that they didn't have an adequate plan B. My assertion is that it's because they were fixated on the unattainable girl and ignored the girl next door. I don't know what your assertion is for why their plan B has been a failure - just general incompetence? I guess I can accept that too.
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I have no idea what the problem was. Players not interested in coming here? An unwillingness to step outside of their valuations? A weird confidence in the players they currently have? It's probably a lot of factors, but all I actually know is that they've failed to this point, and that sucks.

The problem I have with your analysis is that it's 100% just made up in your head. Like... there's absolutely zero evidence that the Jays just sat around waiting on Soto and didn't do anything while they waited, or that the Yankees laid tons of groundwork to be able to move on. Knowing the Jays MO of being interested in everyone, the most likely scenario is that they did lay tons of groundwork all g the way and have just failed to close deals.

The Jays being runner up to others has become a meme the last two years. If they weren't prepared to move on to their next target, they wouldn't be one of the finalists for every player who signs.
 
TheMadHatTrick said:
I reiterate that I'd rather roll the dice with Profar over Santander. Profar has the potential to be a more complete hitter.
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Same. Profar brings better on base but Santander brings more power. Both switch hitters.

I rather Profar because it’s likely $5-7M less per year and maybe a year less and you don’t lose picks.
 
habamillions said:
The cubs were after him too. Jays really need to make a decision soon with bichette and guerrero. Cant lose them for nothing and this team is going nowhere as is. You would get more in a trade now then at the deadline
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Guerrero's trade value is at his highest right compared to the deadline but I'd hope Bo rebounds from his disastrous 2024 to up his value for a midseason deal.

Of course if that Atlanta offer for Bo is true they gotta JUMP on that kind of package asap. He's GONE next year
 
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