2024-25 James Norris Memorial Trophy finalists: Quinn Hughes, Cale Makar, Zach Werenski

[landy]

There's no way you can watch any of those defensemen and think their close to Quinn Hughes.

Insecurity does strange things to a hockey fan...

On pure defense?! 1000000% and its not even close.

 

[Breakers]

Im saying based on the combination of overall defense and offensive contributions, others are more worthy. Hutson, Hughes, and Bouchard are specifically O only. Hybrid "defensemen". They may be elite defenders, but their deployment makes it so we never see it.

Make we up when Makar stops playing pedestrian when he isn’t on the ice with Mackinnon

 

[Toby91ca]

Makar will probably win this. Werenski is a very close second for me, and ask me 10 times about whether I think Makar or Werenski should win it, and I might answer with Werenski a few of those 10 times. All three very worthy finalists.

Honestly, for me....Werenski had a great year, but if you ask me 10 times, my vote is going to Makar 10 times.

 

[landy]

Make we up when Makar stops playing pedestrian when he isn’t on the ice with Mackinnon

Games 1-4 of this playoff series. Hes done dick offensively but been a rock defensively. That has nothing to do with MacKinnon. Proving my point if youre pointing to offensive numbers and not looking at actual defense...when evaluating a defenseman.

THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT WITH QUINN!!!! Notice I have never said anything bad about Werenski all year long, even when voters had him ahead of Makar. Dude is a complete player.

 

[Breakers]

Games 1-4 of this playoff series. Hes done dick offensively but been a rock defensively. That has nothing to do with MacKinnon. Proving my point if youre pointing to offensive numbers and not looking at actual defense...when evaluating a defenseman.

THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT WITH QUINN!!!! Notice I have never said anything bad about Werenski all year long, even when voters had him ahead of Makar. Dude is a complete player.

Actual defense

Make believe defense

 

[landy]

Make we up when Makar stops playing pedestrian when he isn’t on the ice with Mackinnon

Tell me honestly if you believe Karlsson was the best defenseman in the league in 22-23. Or was he simply the highest scoring dman on a team with no consequences to where he could play reckless and little actual defense?

 

[landy]

Actual defense
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Make believe defense
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Where is Quinn, Werenski, Dahlin, etc? Curious why Tanev was chosen.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Most years as a Norris trophy finalist, all-time

Cale Makar is now one of 16 defensemen who's been a Norris trophy finalist at least five times. (All of his are consecutive).

Some notable names that didn't do this - Chris Pronger, Scott Stevens, Brian Leetch, Borje Salming, Brian Leetch, Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Scott Niedermayer

 

[Breakers]

Where is Quinn, Werenski, Dahlin, etc? Curious why Tanev was chosen.

 

[landy]

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Thank you. Quick assumptions are Dahlin is the true Norris apparently according to GAR. Funny how under this model, both Werenski and Makar look terrible. I get the argument that MacKinnon runs the show, but what is the equivalent argument for Werenski since outside of penalties drawn, he and Makar are very similar?

Hughes having nothing in SH is a lol. I dont understand the penalties taken meter. Makar has 14 PIM and is very positive here, where Dahlin has 54 taken and is mildly negative.

Evolving-Hockey

evolving-hockey.com

Im into the argument if proven to be measured well. but no one really explains well how this is exactly emasured on a -3to12 scale apparently from these examples.

No joke, you may be able to move me to a Quinn fan if this metric is proven to be pretty awesome. Im hoping for some zone starts, defense vs higher end talent ES, and more actual defense.

 

[BonMorrison]

Guys should I make Werenski one of my keepers? Does he do it again?

 

[Breakers]

Thank you. Quick assumptions are Dahlin is the true Norris apparently according to GAR. Funny how under this model, both Werenski and Makar look terrible. I get the argument that MacKinnon runs the show, but what is the equivalent argument for Werenski since outside of penalties drawn, he and Makar are very similar?

Hughes having nothing in SH is a lol. I dont understand the penalties taken meter. Makar has 14 PIM and is very positive here, where Dahlin has 54 taken and is mildly negative.

Evolving-Hockey

evolving-hockey.com

Im into the argument if proven to be measured well. but no one really explains well how this is exactly emasured on a -3to12 scale apparently from these examples.

No joke, you may be able to move me to a Quinn fan if this metric is proven to be pretty awesome. Im hoping for some zone starts, defense vs higher end talent ES, and more actual defense.

And I’m hoping for Makar to not be pedestrian when not around Mackinnon and newsflash Makar starts more in the offensive zone

 

[Beerz]

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If Dahlin didn't play on an AHL team he would get so much more respect.

 

[thebeernerd]

If Dahlin didn't play on an AHL team he would get so much more respect.

He's as important to the Sabres functioning as Quinn is for the Canucks. Take either of them away and things get gnarly in short order.

 

[landy]

And I’m hoping for Makar to not be pedestrian when not around Mackinnon and newsflash Makar starts more in the offensive zone

Still doesnt show exactly how this is calculated? Pure zone starts nd ignoring quality of linemates and competition? Doesnt explain Werenski having the same results. Does that mean Marchenko is now equivalent to Mackinnon based on this metric?

 

[Super Hans]

I know it's a regular season award, but playoff +/- stats:
Makar: -3
Hughes: 0
Werenski: 0

 

[landy]

I know it's a regular season award, but playoff +/- stats:
Makar: -3
Hughes: 0
Werenski: 0

He was meh last night, but 2/3 of those were the first 2 goals against, both weird flukey, not on him goals.. Conveniently left out those details?

He has sucked offensively though.

 

[Canadienna]

Gotta be Makar imo.

He can hit, he can play defence and his offense is undeniable.

Not a knock on Hughes or Werenski. Makar will make winning Norris trophies tough over his career.

 

[Spilot23]

I would trade that Norris nomination for 2 good games from Makar !

 

[RedHawkDown]

I think Werenski should win.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Should be either Werenski or Hughes but Makar will win it leeching off of MacKinnon.

Impressive 30 goals though. But nowhere near as important to the team as Werenski or Hughes who are the #1 guy on their team. Hughes led his team in points by nearly 40 points missing a ton of games.

 

[AD1066]

I think Hughes did more with less than Makar did this year. Same for Werenski. But I expect Makar to win.

 

[Grifter3511]

Dahlin, Hedman, Morrisey, and even Hutson or Fox all deserve more votes than Quinn. Norris is still the no defense award.

It's actually an award for the best player at a specific position. There is no strict definition of how one must play that position, so the award can and should be determined by who does their most to help their team win or improve his team's chances of winning (since that's really the only thing that matters), whether that be through their offensive capabilities, defensive capabilities, or a combination of both. If an offensive defenseman does more to help his team win through his offense than a defensive defenseman does through defense, the offensive defenseman is better. It's not rocket science.

 

[landy]

I would trade that Norris nomination for 2 good games from Makar !

Afingmen

 

[landy]

It's actually an award for the best player at a specific position. There is no strict definition of how one must play that position, so the award can and should be determined by who does their most to help their team win or improve his team's chances of winning (since that's really the only thing that matters), whether that be through their offensive capabilities, defensive capabilities, or a combination of both. If an offensive defenseman does more to help his team win through his offense than a defensive defenseman does through defense, the offensive defenseman is better. It's not rocket science.

Bolded the most important part. Doesnt explain Karlsson then and obviously you need to explain to everyone else here with the nonstop crying about who has the better teammates to work with.