Prospect Info: 2024-25 Flyers Prospects - Top 20 SKATERS, #17

[pit]

So again I ask, if every HC in all of these leagues is hired to win and not develop, where does development happen?

 

[deadhead]

So again I ask, if every HC in all of these leagues is hired to win and not develop, where does development happen?

Some from practicing and playing and just physically maturing, but a lot from getting into a pro program where you get individualized instruction and training.

The more talented players tend to get to the NHL quickly, but there a lot of development comes in the summer and training camp, b/c once the season starts, unless you're talking a really bad team, the focus becomes winning games. And there is little time to work with players given 3-4 games a week and constant travel. So most practice is "team" practice, focused on scheme and game planning. There's limited time for individual instruction during the season.

One advantage of sending a player to the AHL is their schedule, games are spaced so that teams often have 3-4 days where they can just practice during the week, then play 2-3 games on the weekend.

 

[BiggE]

So again I ask, if every HC in all of these leagues is hired to win and not develop, where does development happen?

The womb?

 

[BernieParent]

The womb?

I don't know. After that primordial competition against your fellow sperm to the egg, who is going to focus on developing?

 

[BiggE]

I don't know. After that primordial competition against your fellow sperm to the egg, who is going to focus on developing?

The Flyers are all about back checking and defensive play. If they were a species, they’d be well on their way to extinction.

 

[pit]

Some from practicing and playing and just physically maturing, but a lot from getting into a pro program where you get individualized instruction and training.

The more talented players tend to get to the NHL quickly, but there a lot of development comes in the summer and training camp, b/c once the season starts, unless you're talking a really bad team, the focus becomes winning games. And there is little time to work with players given 3-4 games a week and constant travel. So most practice is "team" practice, focused on scheme and game planning. There's limited time for individual instruction during the season.

One advantage of sending a player to the AHL is their schedule, games are spaced so that teams often have 3-4 days where they can just practice during the week, then play 2-3 games on the weekend.

How are they get individualized instruction and training in the pro program during the summer? The players, in terms of the CBA, are off then. So, training camp is the only time of the year they look at development in the NHL? And if none of the lower leagues do development it's just the AHL. And we have Ian frickin' Laperriere as the only potential developer of talent.

Sorry, none of this makes sense as a model to me - both for the leagues and for the Flyers.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

‘Throwback' defenseman is ‘knocking on the door' of Flyers' rebuild

Hunter McDonald is a “throwback” defenseman who could be “knocking on the door” of the Flyers’ rebuild.

www.nbcsportsphiladelphia.com

Got it so just Jordan Hall then, none of the coaches even said anything about him having a chance next year.

Not like the Flyers media guys have been notoriously in the teams pocket for the last ten+ years.

 

[Appleyard]

Top forwards in the CHL play 20+ minutes, some D-men up to 30 minutes, which is what happens when the HC is focused on winning, but who pays the price? The second tier guys who need the minutes. The HCs aren't paid to develop players.

Same in college, it's not just the NHL, look how many college football players need 1-2 seasons to develop into pro players.

The SHL is more complex, in some cases, the team has a vested interest if they think they'll have the player for 2-3 years, in other cases, where the player will probably go to NA in a year, they're not going to invest a lot of time in that player's development.

This is why the team sends personnel out to consult with their prospects about what they need to do to prepare themselves for the next stage of their career. But they're limited in what they can do until the kid is part of the organization.

A lot of Euro teams put a pretty heavy emphasis on developing players, even if they know they will be gone in a year. They have specific development plans for younger players. They choose pretty carefully what level they will play at and liaise with other teams if they fall "In-between" say J20 and SHL so they can send them to the Allsvenskan not too far from home at a landing spot they trust coach wise.

They have a vested interest in doing so! Because:

Most guys wont actually make the NHL even if drafted and go over.
If they dont make it they are more likely to come back to a place they feel cared about them etc.
The young guys they are recruiting from across the country? They and their agents look at development process and it shapes decisions...
The best SHL "recruiters" for example? Did it off the back off excellent reputation for development and it helps shape who actually wins the league as a result.


Also, CHL and USHL teams? Many place an incredibly high amount of onus on development, at the expense of wins at times, especially if they know they are not contenders. Yes, winning matters, but they want to be an attractive option for kids and it is a cutthroat world recruitment wise. Kids will choose where they go often based on that process and how likely the team is to helping them fulfil their potential. Additionally a lot of CHL and USHL GMs, coaches etc? Know that alongside winning their path to the big leagues is developing players. Even the guys who will never have a chance to even play AHL they will have specific development plans in place for them, help them identify options for the next step in career etc.

 

[DAVIDE1333]

Got it so just Jordan Hall then, none of the coaches even said anything about him having a chance next year.

Not like the Flyers media guys have been notoriously in the teams pocket for the last ten+ years.

Like I said, maybe just a puff piece.

 

[deadhead]

A lot of Euro teams put a pretty heavy emphasis on developing players, even if they know they will be gone in a year. They have specific development plans for younger players. They choose pretty carefully what level they will play at and liaise with other teams if they fall "In-between" say J20 and SHL so they can send them to the Allsvenskan not too far from home at a landing spot they trust coach wise.

They have a vested interest in doing so! Because:

Most guys wont actually make the NHL even if drafted and go over.
If they dont make it they are more likely to come back to a place they feel cared about them etc.
The young guys they are recruiting from across the country? They and their agents look at development process and it shapes decisions...
The best SHL "recruiters" for example? Did it off the back off excellent reputation for development and it helps shape who actually wins the league as a result.


Also, CHL and USHL teams? Many place an incredibly high amount of onus on development, at the expense of wins at times, especially if they know they are not contenders. Yes, winning matters, but they want to be an attractive option for kids and it is a cutthroat world recruitment wise. Kids will choose where they go often based on that process and how likely the team is to helping them fulfil their potential. Additionally a lot of CHL and USHL GMs, coaches etc? Know that alongside winning their path to the big leagues is developing players. Even the guys who will never have a chance to even play AHL they will have specific development plans in place for them, help them identify options for the next step in career etc.

Pro teams simply have more resources for player development. Number of personnel, salaries paid to assistant coaches, facilities, etc. With the salary cap, it's the one area where rich franchises can create a competitive edge.

This holds true for every sport, now some are more development focused, in baseball, few players, even out of college, are ML ready without 2-3 years of minor league play, HS/LA players often need 5-6 years. Even in the NFL, where major colleges are semi-pro (the resources available to say Alabama exceed that of most pro franchise), most players need development time (many "red-shirt" their rookie season).

Now it doesn't mean every pro team understands the importance of player development, many either don't know how or lack the financial resources due to cash flow considerations. But good franchises build first rate facilities, hire extra coaches, pay for coaches to meet with and monitor prospects, etc.

Look at AHL rules limited the number of "veterans" who are allowed to play, this forces AHL teams to play marginal prospects and give them the ice time to develop. Now I don't know why teams don't own their AHL franchise, it would avoid the kind of conflict Carolina had with the Chicago Wolves where the NHL team wanted more time for prospects and the AHL franchise wanted to sell tickets.

Just look at 1st rd picks (the most talented and NHL ready), how many need 1-2 years or longer in the AHL and bouncing back and forth before they win a starting job? If they were finished products at 20, this wouldn't be necessary. Later round picks often need 4-6 years from being drafted to win jobs at 22-24 years old b/c they need to be coached up to compensate for physical or mental limitations.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Like I said, maybe just a puff piece.

Seems like the sort of thing you shouldn't pay much attention too.

 

[Appleyard]

Pro teams simply have more resources for player development. Number of personnel, salaries paid to assistant coaches, facilities, etc. With the salary cap, it's the one area where rich franchises can create a competitive edge.

This holds true for every sport, now some are more development focused, in baseball, few players, even out of college, are ML ready without 2-3 years of minor league play, HS/LA players often need 5-6 years. Even in the NFL, where major colleges are semi-pro (the resources available to say Alabama exceed that of most pro franchise), most players need development time (many "red-shirt" their rookie season).

Now it doesn't mean every pro team understands the importance of player development, many either don't know how or lack the financial resources due to cash flow considerations. But good franchises build first rate facilities, hire extra coaches, pay for coaches to meet with and monitor prospects, etc.

Look at AHL rules limited the number of "veterans" who are allowed to play, this forces AHL teams to play marginal prospects and give them the ice time to develop. Now I don't know why teams don't own their AHL franchise, it would avoid the kind of conflict Carolina had with the Chicago Wolves where the NHL team wanted more time for prospects and the AHL franchise wanted to sell tickets.

Just look at 1st rd picks (the most talented and NHL ready), how many need 1-2 years or longer in the AHL and bouncing back and forth before they win a starting job? If they were finished products at 20, this wouldn't be necessary. Later round picks often need 4-6 years from being drafted to win jobs at 22-24 years old b/c they need to be coached up to compensate for physical or mental limitations.

A lot of Euro pro teams have better facilities than NHL teams though... and dedicated u-20, u-18 and often u-16 teams with specialist youth coaches focused on development! They are not just pro teams... but community organisations who have the capacity and will to develop kids from single figure ages. And they have local feeder teams in the different areas of the city/region too that they regularly keep in touch with.

The NHL often has zero impact on how Euro teams develop their players, as they are already in a process and all it means is an extra development coach over the phone who might visit them 2x a year! (which is not exactly resource-heavy!) You wonder why teams like drafting guys from specific Euro clubs... some have a real reputation for doing their jobs better than 95% of NHL teams ever would even if they got the kid at 18.

Yeh, players often stagnate in the AHL and I dont think a lot of NHL teams put ideal structures in place to ensure the AHL actually works for development.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

Who is speculating that?

Me. Cause its the flyers

 

[deadhead]

A lot of Euro pro teams have better facilities than NHL teams though... and dedicated u-20, u-18 and often u-16 teams with specialist youth coaches focused on development! They are not just pro teams... but community organisations who have the capacity and will to develop kids from single figure ages. And they have local feeder teams in the different areas of the city/region too that they regularly keep in touch with.

The NHL often has zero impact on how Euro teams develop their players, as they are already in a process and all it means is an extra development coach over the phone who might visit them 2x a year! (which is not exactly resource-heavy!) You wonder why teams like drafting guys from specific Euro clubs... some have a real reputation for doing their jobs better than 95% of NHL teams ever would even if they got the kid at 18.

Yeh, players often stagnate in the AHL and I dont think a lot of NHL teams put ideal structures in place to ensure the AHL actually works for development.

If a NHL team doesn't have better practice facilities than Euro teams then the owner is either cash poor or an idiot. Because he has access to the money to do so.

The Flyers spent about $15 million expanding and renovating their training facility in Voorhees.

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2018/02/22/virtua-flyers-training-facility-voorhees-remodeled.html

Like I said, it's weird NHL teams don't own their affiliates (is there a rule preventing this?). Given NHL salaries, the value of producing better prospects is worth millions a year (whether saving money for poor teams or competitive advantage for rich teams). It doesn't make sense for the NHL franchise to not closely control and supervise player development, from facilities to training to coaching.

No idea if the Flyers have invested in facilities in Allentown, or if prospects are limited to what the AHL franchise can afford - if so, that's a huge mistake. The whole reason to have the Phantoms near should be to integrate the two organizations for purposes of development - but you don't want prospects having to drive two hours to access top rate facilities.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

If a NHL team doesn't have better practice facilities than Euro teams then the owner is either cash poor or an idiot. Because he has access to the money to do so.

The Flyers spent about $15 million expanding and renovating their training facility in Voorhees.

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2018/02/22/virtua-flyers-training-facility-voorhees-remodeled.html

Like I said, it's weird NHL teams don't own their affiliates (is there a rule preventing this?). Given NHL salaries, the value of producing better prospects is worth millions a year (whether saving money for poor teams or competitive advantage for rich teams). It doesn't make sense for the NHL franchise to not closely control and supervise player development, from facilities to training to coaching.

No idea if the Flyers have invested in facilities in Allentown, or if prospects are limited to what the AHL franchise can afford - if so, that's a huge mistake. The whole reason to have the Phantoms near should be to integrate the two organizations for purposes of development - but you don't want prospects having to drive two hours to access top rate facilities.

Shit they cant even get them to play the same systems!!

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If a NHL team doesn't have better practice facilities than Euro teams then the owner is either cash poor or an idiot. Because he has access to the money to do so.

The Flyers spent about $15 million expanding and renovating their training facility in Voorhees.

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2018/02/22/virtua-flyers-training-facility-voorhees-remodeled.html

Like I said, it's weird NHL teams don't own their affiliates (is there a rule preventing this?). Given NHL salaries, the value of producing better prospects is worth millions a year (whether saving money for poor teams or competitive advantage for rich teams). It doesn't make sense for the NHL franchise to not closely control and supervise player development, from facilities to training to coaching.

No idea if the Flyers have invested in facilities in Allentown, or if prospects are limited to what the AHL franchise can afford - if so, that's a huge mistake. The whole reason to have the Phantoms near should be to integrate the two organizations for purposes of development - but you don't want prospects having to drive two hours to access top rate facilities.

15 isn’t that much in the grand scheme of things. Georgia football spent 80 million redoing their facilities immediately after spending 90 on upgrades (some of which was to the stadium).

I am very much here for the discussion about how NHL franchises are mismanaged though. Please continue.

 

[Appleyard]

If a NHL team doesn't have better practice facilities than Euro teams then the owner is either cash poor or an idiot. Because he has access to the money to do so.

The Flyers spent about $15 million expanding and renovating their training facility in Voorhees.

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2018/02/22/virtua-flyers-training-facility-voorhees-remodeled.html

Like I said, it's weird NHL teams don't own their affiliates (is there a rule preventing this?). Given NHL salaries, the value of producing better prospects is worth millions a year (whether saving money for poor teams or competitive advantage for rich teams). It doesn't make sense for the NHL franchise to not closely control and supervise player development, from facilities to training to coaching.

No idea if the Flyers have invested in facilities in Allentown, or if prospects are limited to what the AHL franchise can afford - if so, that's a huge mistake. The whole reason to have the Phantoms near should be to integrate the two organizations for purposes of development - but you don't want prospects having to drive two hours to access top rate facilities.

A lot of NHL teams simply don't have much money... and owners don't want to pay for things!

15 million is not that much tbh.

I mean, look at the Avs. One of the most successful teams in league, not poor at all... annnnd they have worse practice facilities than 2-3 EIHL teams lmao. (Tbf Nottingham and Sheffield have fantastic practice facilities, better than probably all AHL and some NHL teams... as have dual rink government funded facilities they use)

And tbh that is the thing. NHL teams don't want to splurge 50-100m or so to build a great practice rink etc. While in a lot of places in Europe? The local municipality, national government, local businesses and the team will have either financial input or be able to use high end facilities they did not pay for!

Sometimes this does hurt availability... as have to share facilities...

And then in hockey mad places in Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic etc... there are soooo many rinks and teams have close relations and sharing agreements etc in places where has not been as much investment.

I mean, you have insane outliers too. Red Bull Salzburg have better facilities than most of the NHL...

But a lot of NHL teams are run right at the limit financially. Their investment is their 100+m payroll for staff and players and there is often not much meat left on the bone after.

Ofc there are 10 or so teams who could build some incredible stuff if they wanted. But they often don't.

 

[deadhead]

A lot of NHL teams simply don't have much money... and owners don't want to pay for things!

15 million is not that much tbh.

I mean, look at the Avs. One of the most successful teams in league, not poor at all... annnnd they have worse practice facilities than 2-3 EIHL teams lmao. (Tbf Nottingham and Sheffield have fantastic practice facilities, better than probably all AHL and some NHL teams... as have dual rink government funded facilities they use)

And tbh that is the thing. NHL teams don't want to splurge 50-100m or so to build a great practice rink etc. While in a lot of places in Europe? The local municipality, national government, local businesses and the team will have either financial input or be able to use high end facilities they did not pay for!

Sometimes this does hurt availability... as have to share facilities...

And then in hockey mad places in Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic etc... there are soooo many rinks and teams have close relations and sharing agreements etc in places where has not been as much investment.

I mean, you have insane outliers too. Red Bull Salzburg have better facilities than most of the NHL...

But a lot of NHL teams are run right at the limit financially. Their investment is their 100+m payroll for staff and players and there is often not much meat left on the bone after.

Ofc there are 10 or so teams who could build some incredible stuff if they wanted. But they often don't.

And that is stupid for rich franchises, the cap levels the playing field, so you should be investing in non-capped assets, such as skill coaches, facilities, analytics, video equipment and editors. Hockey is much cheaper than football in terms of facilities, though more expensive than basketball. Yet NBA staffs are more extensive than NHL staffs even though rosters are half the size and tactics are simpler (no special teams).

One reason Eagles are a top franchise is that Lurie has never skimped on these things, and gee, those costs really bite him in the ass as the franchise added oh a billion in value over a couple decades.

Now the Flyers aren't going to approach that sort of valuation, still, the synergies for Comcast compared to the cost of other content would counsel investing in anything that provides an edge to make the team a perpetual contender.

 

[BernieParent]

And that is stupid for rich franchises, the cap levels the playing field, so you should be investing in non-capped assets, such as skill coaches, facilities, analytics, video equipment and editors. Hockey is much cheaper than football in terms of facilities, though more expensive than basketball. Yet NBA staffs are more extensive than NHL staffs even though rosters are half the size and tactics are simpler (no special teams).

One reason Eagles are a top franchise is that Lurie has never skimped on these things, and gee, those costs really bite him in the ass as the franchise added oh a billion in value over a couple decades.

Now the Flyers aren't going to approach that sort of valuation, still, the synergies for Comcast compared to the cost of other content would counsel investing in anything that provides an edge to make the team a perpetual contender.

Seconded for better coaches and an analytics department the FO will listen to.

 

[Appleyard]

And that is stupid for rich franchises, the cap levels the playing field, so you should be investing in non-capped assets, such as skill coaches, facilities, analytics, video equipment and editors. Hockey is much cheaper than football in terms of facilities, though more expensive than basketball. Yet NBA staffs are more extensive than NHL staffs even though rosters are half the size and tactics are simpler (no special teams).

One reason Eagles are a top franchise is that Lurie has never skimped on these things, and gee, those costs really bite him in the ass as the franchise added oh a billion in value over a couple decades.

Now the Flyers aren't going to approach that sort of valuation, still, the synergies for Comcast compared to the cost of other content would counsel investing in anything that provides an edge to make the team a perpetual contender.

Some is stupidity... some is simply that the NHL is pretty damn poor vs most pro sports leagues.

I know some of the inner workings of the Premier League and you would still be shocked at how little teams are prepared to pay staff for example outside of the manager and first team coaches. And how long it takes for new facilities to be approved to be built and the battle at times over such things. It varies by team but there are some very important people in club structures for development, scouting etc who they skimp on. Even in one of the richest leagues on earth so many teams outside their first team player and staff payroll are basically broke. All their money goes into those things.

The NBA is twice as profitable as the NHL and the average team is worth 3x as much... some teams, after it comes to paying players and staff and the logistical costs of operating? Will basically be break even at best.

There are for sure some teams who have the money but are skinflints. No coincidence Stan Kroenke is the Avs owner for example...