GDT: 2024-2025 Training Camp

[DesertedPenguin]

Then we agree... send him down to the AHL and let him work on the offensive side of the puck. I totally agree that you must manage things player to player as opposed to just using a blanket philosophy for everyone (ahem) but how does Groats really benefit by playing like 12-15 minutes mired in the DZ with Lars Eller (at best) eating pucks on the PK from NHL shooters? Are we TRYING to make him skip teams again?

If he must stay in the NHL due to a Rust injury then put him up there and see what happens. If he falters send him down... like you said... not a big deal.

EDIT: I take your point about the potential of losing confidence in that role but that can also very much be a thing slogging it out night after night in a Sullivan bottom six and PK while posting up a like... a secondary assist every five games on average or something because you just happened to overlap a shift with the top two lines.

I hear you, but I also think there's a potential that an Eller-centered line may START in the defensive zone but quickly escapes with the likes of McGroarty and Puljujarvi flanking him. And there is enough offensive talent on that line to maintain puck possession and put pressure on opposing teams and even score some goals.

I think the challenge with Sullivan's structure and preferred way of playing is that the Penguins haven't been able to get out of their own zone enough. So lines led by the likes of Eller and Acciari last year ended up just taking hard, ridiculous minutes in their own zone.

I do think the individuals who have been part of the competition for the bottom six are better and have more talent than what was here last year. A healthy Puljujarvi, McGroarty, Lizotte, even Hayes, and Glass are better than Carter, Harkins, Zohorna, Nieto, etc.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I hear you, but I also think there's a potential that an Eller-centered line may START in the defensive zone but quickly escapes with the lines of McGroarty and Puljujarvi flanking him. And there is enough offensive talent on that line to maintain puck possession and put pressure on opposing teams and even score some goals.

I think the challenge with Sullivan's structure and preferred way of playing is that the Penguins haven't been able to get out of their own zone enough. So lines led by the likes of Eller and Acciari last year ended up just taking hard, ridiculous minutes in their own zone.

I do think the individuals who have been part of the competition for the bottom six are better and have more talent than what was here last year. A healthy Puljujarvi, McGroarty, Lizotte, even Hayes, and Glass are better than Carter, Harkins, Zohorna, Nieto, etc.

I agree that the bottom six looks a bit more promising on paper... though I think at least some of that is largely thanks to a terrific Pulju preseason that most were not really expecting. I guess at this point I'm just going to have to believe any kind of 3rd and 4th line offense when I see it and/or a change in philosophy from the coach re: deployment. It's been a LOT of years of soul-sucking, infinite-void kinda stuff from this teams depth lines for me to be anything other than extremely cynical and borderline horrified of putting a player like Groats in that same boat.

I'm not gonna go quite as overboard as some with him but he really does seem to have some ability, IQ and determination. I really don't want them to f*** it up. He might project as a complimentary piece but that's not nothing and to my eyes at least there's some flashes of possibly more, there. Kid has wisdom beyond his years around the opposing net and the IQ to know where the puck is going before it even gets there... a little bit more polish offensively and we might really have something, here. I see no sense in insisting that he eat pucks, play most of the game in his own end and take shifts with middling-at-best players especially when you have Sid Crosby with an empty wing slot sitting right there.

Regardless mostly just a difference in philosophies, I guess. I might well be wrong... perhaps easing him in at the NHL level in a depth role and moving him up once he's proven capable of hanging with NHL speed and timing is the way to go. I just... don't trust this coaching staff at all. Hard to blame.

 

[Andy99]

We need to hit on McG as a top six winger…I don’t want Sullivan to F him up with his stupid bottom six usage…lets Find out if he’s more than DOC…unless Sullivan provides more O zone starts for L3 and is willing to cut back on the minutes for Sid and G, then McG is best served starting in Wilkes on the top scoring line there..

 

[Honour Over Glory]

We need to hit on McG as a top six winger…I don’t want Sullivan to F him up with his stupid bottom six usage…lets Find out if he’s more than DOC…unless Sullivan provides more O zone starts for L3 and is willing to cut back on the minutes for Sid and G, then McG is best served starting in Wilkes on the top scoring line there..

The issue I see with this train of thought is that McG needs to be better than Doc when really this should never even be an issue if it weren't for this coach. Because if the 3rd line was used like other teams, Doc or McG being LW on the third line would be perfectly fine. But yeah aside from that I agree - Rutger needs to be in WBS to start the season, play top 6 minutes, play top PP minutes and get PK minutes in there as well at the AHL level to work out his kinks so when he's called up, he can be as Sully proof as possible. Because Sullivan will pull his dumb shit the moment the season starts. It's inevitable.

I hate that this teams issues are Mike Sullivan. His idea of how 4 lines should look and be deployed have been an issue for close to a decade now and we've seen so many players come and go that were destroyed in his idiotic bottom 6 usage ideas.

I hear you, but I also think there's a potential that an Eller-centered line may START in the defensive zone but quickly escapes with the likes of McGroarty and Puljujarvi flanking him. And there is enough offensive talent on that line to maintain puck possession and put pressure on opposing teams and even score some goals.

I think the challenge with Sullivan's structure and preferred way of playing is that the Penguins haven't been able to get out of their own zone enough. So lines led by the likes of Eller and Acciari last year ended up just taking hard, ridiculous minutes in their own zone.

I do think the individuals who have been part of the competition for the bottom six are better and have more talent than what was here last year. A healthy Puljujarvi, McGroarty, Lizotte, even Hayes, and Glass are better than Carter, Harkins, Zohorna, Nieto, etc.

I would have more faith in a line of McG-Eller-Puustinen being able to exit the zone than Puljujarvi there as a 3rd line, I like JP but I think all 3 together isn't going to be the best at zone exits. You are a known Puustinen hater, but the one thing he really does well is get the puck out of the zone quick and identifies where to create turnovers and he's quicker than both wingers. Either that LW needs to be Beauvillier or Doc or the RW needs to be Puustinen.

It is unfortunate Puustinen doesn't have the glorious G/60 like 33yr old Noel Acciari, but we'll all have to struggle in our lives for it.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with Poulin hitting waivers or Sullivan wanting McG to PK.

Poulin's camp was underwhelming and McG is hardly such a blue chipper that he couldn't benefit from being able to PK.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If you can't coach a guy to penalty kill then you really should just move things along and go be a used car salesman or "get into real estate" or whatever it is that washed up coaches do,

 

[DesertedPenguin]

If you can't coach a guy to penalty kill then you really should just move things along and go be a used car salesman or "get into real estate" or whatever it is that washed up coaches do,

I tend to agree, but I do think some guys have a better understanding of reading plays and knowing when to press or sit back, which is a huge skill on the PK.

I also think some guys play soft and don't want to risk blocking a shot in game 27 of the season.

 

[The Old Master]

I don't have a problem with McGroarty PKing. As others have mentioned, a lot of top players in the league PK.

It's just the mindset of this f***ing dumbass coach. Really? THAT'S what it takes to break into the NHL? Being a PKer?

as a coach ... i love it, because it will improve his skating
as a fan ... i hate it because his skating makes him not very good at it.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I tend to agree, but I do think some guys have a better understanding of reading plays and knowing when to press or sit back, which is a huge skill on the PK.

I also think some guys play soft and don't want to risk blocking a shot in game 27 of the season.

People probably think I lack respect for the position but that couldn't be further from the truth... I love those guys, man. They lay it out on the line every game for the whole season until they break a foot or something then after they recover they get right back out there and do it all over again. THAT is what it takes to PK... that and communication are like 80-90% of it. Sheer f***in' will and balls, man.

You're right that if you can get a player to buy in to that mentality that ALSO has some high end IQ, anticipation and reach/a good stick you're dealing with what is probably a monster PKer. Malkin in Russia and early on with MT was like this.

 

[Gurglesons]

No one except @Gurglesons is surprised to see Poulin on waivers

I'm not surprised. It's just frustrating to give a 1st round pick 6 games.

 

[Empoleon8771]

People probably think I lack respect for the position but that couldn't be further from the truth... I love those guys, man. They lay it out on the line every game for the whole season until they break a foot or something then after they recover they get right back out there and do it all over again. THAT is what it takes to PK... that and communication are like 80-90% of it. Sheer f***in' will and balls, man.

You're right that if you can get a player to buy in to that mentality that ALSO has some high end IQ, anticipation and reach/a good stick you're dealing with what is probably a monster PKer. Malkin in Russia and early on with MT was like this.

I think both O'Connor and Rust fall in this category, especially O'Connor. I feel like he's a terrific PKer.

The primary goal with this team should be to get good bottom-6 players that can PK but also bring things outside of that (think Lizotte, Eller and O'Connor all fit this), but without that, I think they're better off trying to get their good players to learn how to PK than just defaulting to playing bad players solely because they PK.

As an aside, this is why I kinda wish they would have gone after Mathieu Joseph in the off-season. Ottawa paid to get out of his deal and I think he's a better player than either Hayes or Glass. Trading for Joseph instead of Glass would have made the team better while they would have gotten the same pick, think that was a missed opportunity to bring in one of those "good bottom-6 players that can also PK". Feel free to shit on JFresh all you want, but this looks way better to me than whatever the hell Acciari or Glass are supposed to be:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1808205886793375789

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I agree that were it up to me I'd just concentrate on getting GOOD players first and worry about penalty killing second. These guys are all the best at what they do and want to keep their jobs... you're not going to find any shortage of players on any team that will step up to PK if asked.

I guess I'm mostly just saying that I find the idea of "specialized penalty killers" to be pretty dumb. Well... that and I find Sullivan's mentality re: "what it takes for NHL success" to be really silly and self-aggrandizing.

 

[Fordy]

I think both O'Connor and Rust fall in this category, especially O'Connor. I feel like he's a terrific PKer.

The primary goal with this team should be to get good bottom-6 players that can PK but also bring things outside of that (think Lizotte, Eller and O'Connor all fit this), but without that, I think they're better off trying to get their good players to learn how to PK than just defaulting to playing bad players solely because they PK.

As an aside, this is why I kinda wish they would have gone after Mathieu Joseph in the off-season. Ottawa paid to get out of his deal and I think he's a better player than either Hayes or Glass. Trading for Joseph instead of Glass would have made the team better while they would have gotten the same pick, think that was a missed opportunity to bring in one of those "good bottom-6 players that can also PK". Feel free to shit on JFresh all you want, but this looks way better to me than whatever the hell Acciari is supposed to be:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1808205886793375789

100% and you’ve been totally on point all camp btw

honestly i have a tough time complaining about any sully preseason (and what we project for night 1 atm) lineup decisions this year, for maybe the first time since idk 2018. if you’re finding tremendous fault with who is ending up where position-wise you may just be a deranged hater, whether there was the platonic ideal of “true competition” in camp or not… i’ve been a big complainer for years now and i really can’t disagree with how anything has played out this year. i’ll see how i feel a month in when sullivan has hayes out to defend the lead i guess but really very few complaints so far. seems like things are pretty much aligning with merit in 95% of cases. for the first time in a long time it doesn’t feel like someone is getting royally shafted

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah. We could've gotten paid to take Mathieu Joseph and Walman and this team would look like it could possibly be a playoff team with the other moves.

Walman would've been such a good add for us. So frustrating.

I think people are way too low on Glass tho.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I agree that were it up to me I'd just concentrate on getting GOOD players first and worry about penalty killing second. These guys are all the best at what they do and want to keep their jobs... you're not going to find any shortage of players on any team that will step up to PK if asked.

I guess I'm mostly just saying that I find the idea of "specialized penalty killers" to be pretty dumb. Well... that and I find Sullivan's mentality re: "what it takes for NHL success" to be really silly and self-aggrandizing.

And like I said in a previous post, it's not that hard to find veterans who can PK at the TDL if you absolutely must add one. If the PK is the one area you seem to be having an issue, there's always guys you can acquire for a mid-round pick at any point in the season, if you need to.

I dunno. I think Sullivan making the PK seem like the absolute most important part of a team's success is bonkers when this is the same guy who doesn't seem to think fixing the abysmal PP was a priority despite the fact it was literally costing us games last season.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

And like I said in a previous post, it's not that hard to find veterans who can PK at the TDL if you absolutely must add one. If the PK is the one area you seem to be having an issue, there's always guys you can acquire for a mid-round pick at any point in the season, if you need to.

I dunno. I think Sullivan making the PK seem like the absolute most important part of a team's success is bonkers when this is the same guy who doesn't seem to think fixing the abysmal PP was a priority despite the fact it was literally costing us games last season.

Dude's over here talking about the PK and meanwhile the powerplay was a disaster zone and arguably cost them a playoff spot and the entire team couldn't score their way out of a wet paper bag for at least two years running.

Have they even CHANGED anything re: the powerplay? Looks the same to me.

Would be nice to talk about Groats honing his offensive game so he can help his team score more goals. Or how he's working hard to pick up the new schemes they're using on the powerplay. But no... gotta get on dat PK or you ain't in MY phonebook, bud.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Would be nice to talk about Groats honing his offensive game so he can help his team score more goals. Or how he's working hard to pick up the new schemes they're using on the powerplay. But no... gotta get on dat PK or you ain't in MY phonebook, bud.

100% would be refreshing. I'd be stoked if Sullivan started glowing about things McGroarty does well that could help a struggling PP. But no, ignore the atrocious PP that cost us the playoffs and talk about how it's cool that McGroarty can PK.

 

[Ulf5]

100% would be refreshing. I'd be stoked if Sullivan started glowing about things McGroarty does well that could help a struggling PP. But no, ignore the atrocious PP that cost us the playoffs and talk about how it's cool that McGroarty can PK.

One of yinz season ticket holders need to make a sign. Hey Mike- the PK was 10th.
The PP was limp and sucked ass.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

One of yinz season ticket holders need to make a sign. Hey Mike- the PK was 10th.
The PP was limp and sucked ass.

Sullivan would ignore the second part and just think, "Hmm, only 10th? Definitely need more PK help first and foremost".

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The PK was 10th and they were top or near to it in the league in faceoff percentage. And they stunk.

The two things NHL meathead coaches can't talk enough about. Almost like they're full of shit.

ANYWAY... I told myself yesterday that I was gonna try to make a concerted effort to not drag Mike Sullivan into each and every discussion. I know that he's a huge and inevitable part of the equation and his action and non-action has an effect all across the organization but I totally get that it gets old. Plus he's not getting fired any time soon and I'd like to better manage my blood pressure and try not to get any greyer than I already am

 

[Ryder71]

Poulin on waivers, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I feel sooooooooooooooooooooooooo good!

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah it's super cool that the team wasted a first round pick.

Who TF celebrates that?

 

[Ryder71]

Rip Poulin, it was nice knowing you

No it wasn't he was a trash player! Keeping him this long was asinine. He's a curtain jerker that no one has use for. He needs to go back to siberia, he's a freakshow!

He's as big a bust as Chris Wells!

Yeah it's super cool that the team wasted a first round pick.

Who TF celebrates that?

We celebrate that he's gone, not that he's a bust! Unable to discern between the two I see.

 

[Ryder71]

Sullivan would ignore the second part and just think, "Hmm, only 10th? Definitely need more PK help first and foremost".

Sullivan is as ''clueless'' as the '95 hit movie.

I have every confidence with his empty platitudes and the Dinosaurs who REFUSE to try a different course, they'll all get what's comin to them. That's right, another non-playoff season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1842335772566798677