GDT: 2024-2025 Training Camp

[Sideline]

I'm not really sure how much pedigree is actually there. Farkas just had a good post about Poulin on the main boards that I tend to agree with:



Yeah, he was drafted in the 1st round, but I don't really feel like he has any noticeable skills that stand out and suggest "there is an upside here". It was just that second Q season where he dominated, outside of that is just decent.



Yeah I understand the logic of not specifically McGroarty being the guy you want adding that skillset, which is why I mentioned Puljujarvi as making more sense as the guy to pick up PKing. My point was more broadly that if you don't want these shitty Nieto types, you'll need to have some of your top-9 forwards capable of killing penalties.

Nieto is the perfect case study for why I don't bitch about defense first bottom 6 if the contracts are reasonable. You can just hide him in WBS with no cap implications of Poulin or Ponomarov all the sudden look like better options.

Carter and Hayes are bad players that you can't hide for free. I'm fine with the cost of hiding Hayes because they actually got paid to take him. It's the Carter types that were obviously terrible deals from the start that kill me.

 

[DearDiary]

No one except @Gurglesons is surprised to see Poulin on waivers

 

[MrBurghundy]

Rip Poulin, it was nice knowing you

I can't see him getting claimed. Dude showed nothing this preseason. If he does, then I hope he goes somewhere and finds his game again.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1842235451316330844

What is this "winning" he speaks of?

 

[MrBurghundy]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1842235451316330844

Things like this make me happy they will most likely retire as Penguins.

 

[Andy99]

16 Fs now? I can’t count

No there’s more…..quite a few like Nieto, Pono etc who are injured who will go on LTIR or still be sent down and are waiver exempt…there will be 15 forwards that we can identify as still realistically being in play for spots and that includes McG…for that reason alone, I send him down to the A….so the Pens then only need to waive one player (unless there’s another injury), and that assumes Lizotte and Rust are ready to start the season…pretty sure that one player will be Puusty but it should be Glass because much less chance someone picks up that contract lol

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Regarding Sullivan's comments on McGroarty, I think he views him as someone like Rust or DOC - guys who are smart enough and agile enough to establish themselves with positionally sound and situationally sound hockey, who can be trusted on the PK early in their careers. Then, as they get comfortable in the NHL, they contribute more and more offensively.

Because I don't think McGroarty's offensive skills are quite NHL polished yet. Lots of potential, to be sure, but not there yet. But he's very smart, sees the ice well, and hasn't looked out of place in his own zone. I think that's why he's getting this opportunity.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Regarding Sullivan's comments on McGroarty, I think he views him as someone like Rust or DOC - guys who are smart enough and agile enough to establish themselves with positionally sound and situationally sound hockey, who can be trusted on the PK early in their careers. Then, as they get comfortable in the NHL, they contribute more and more offensively.

Because I don't think McGroarty's offensive skills are quite NHL polished yet. Lots of potential, to be sure, but not there yet. But he's very smart, sees the ice well, and hasn't looked out of place in his own zone. I think that's why he's getting this opportunity.

I think McGroarty will have a similar trajectory to O'Connor.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Regarding Sullivan's comments on McGroarty, I think he views him as someone like Rust or DOC - guys who are smart enough and agile enough to establish themselves with positionally sound and situationally sound hockey, who can be trusted on the PK early in their careers. Then, as they get comfortable in the NHL, they contribute more and more offensively.

Because I don't think McGroarty's offensive skills are quite NHL polished yet. Lots of potential, to be sure, but not there yet. But he's very smart, sees the ice well, and hasn't looked out of place in his own zone. I think that's why he's getting this opportunity.

I think it's relatively solid if not boilerplate conventional wisdom. But as usual Sullivan is a bit too rigid and treats too many players in a "one size fits all" kind of way. There's no sense to me in starting Groats in the NHL only to play him on the third line at best with like 70% D zone starts and eating pucks on the PK. Unless that's all they see in him. Play him in the role he is clearly aspiring to and is already showing signs of being capable of or allow him to work on it at the AHL level. Like you said yourself it's mostly some fine tuning re: his offensive game that needs work not standing in front of slappers.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm not annoyed that McG's being coached all aspects of the game in an effort to see if he can eventually be an all situations player, phasing out the "need" (it was never a need) for guys like Acciari and Nieto and Harkins. I'm annoyed because I'm not naïve or stupid enough to fall for the act after years of Sullivan's bullshit, and can see the writing on the wall of a lame coach taking this team's best prospect and trying to turn him into ZAR because he's fanatical about zero event hockey. Just like when he was excited to "add structure" to Karlsson's game. I just have no idea how people can read a quote from this coach talking up the importance of PKing and not roll their eyes so hard they get vertigo and topple over.

I'd rather this coach talk about the focus being on maximizing a player like McG's strengths, working on the aspects of his game that would make him a successful, impact NHLer long term. Things that'll make him an important addition to a scoring line. "Hey, we have a kid here who is a really smart player, good frame, great instincts in tight and can make plays." Not "Hey man, you gotta be able to PK if you wanna break into *this* league, buddy. You gotta EARN your spot, bucko." I couldn't give a slimy rat shit if McG is a PKer or not. That's not where his value lies now or in the long term. You wanna make sure he can PK sometime down the line? Cool. Establish him as an NHLer and offensive support type guy and work on PKing later if it's a key element missing from his toolbox--which it won't be, because PKing isn't brain surgery. The focus should be on trying to get a Hornqvist, Landeskog, or Kunitz archetype out of the kid. Aim high for christ's sake. This organization's such a bunch of predictable, lame f***s.

But I mean, more power to ya. I just don't believe for a second Sullivan's trying to do what's best for McG's longevity. I think he doesn't want a rookie out there learning on the job in important situations, and the inherent risk that comes with it, so he'd rather coach him down to some nobody grunt instead of giving him leash and allowing him to play through the growing pains that inevitably come with a kid developing into a top-9/top-6 offensive player.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah I mean it's almost as if it's super obvious that Mike Sullivan is going to be a shit developmental coach or something.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Yeah I mean it's almost as if it's super obvious that Mike Sullivan is going to be a shit developmental coach or something.

What's hilarious is that he WAS a player development coach in Chicago, and he DID play young players when he first became Pittsburgh's coach.

The dude has just gone soft in the head. It makes no damn sense.

 

[Deport Ogie]

Yeah I mean it's almost as if it's super obvious that Mike Sullivan is going to be a shit developmental coach or something.

Pre cup-winning swath of arrogance he WAS considered a decent dev coach insofar as I recall.

I had to take online courses to get my youth coaching cert and I definitely remember USA Hockey being very proud to parrot out "NY Rangers assistant coach" Mike Sullivan to help train all of us noobs up on the right way to develop all those 13 year olds who refuse to play defense, etc.

Keep in mind I took these courses in 2018 so, definitely up-to-date and current.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

What's hilarious is that he WAS a player development coach in Chicago, and he DID play young players when he first became Pittsburgh's coach.

The dude has just gone soft in the head. It makes no damn sense.

Pre cup-winning swath of arrogance he WAS considered a decent dev coach insofar as I recall.

I had to take online courses to get my youth coaching cert and I definitely remember USA Hockey being very proud to parrot out "NY Rangers assistant coach" Mike Sullivan to help train all of us noobs up on the right way to develop all those 13 year olds who refuse to play defense, etc.

Keep in mind I took these courses in 2018 so, definitely up-to-date and current.

Oh you guys are definitely right. It didn't START this way. But unfortunately it seems like a combination of early success and the attendant immunity granted makes coaches lazy, stubborn and ego-blind. Who'd a thunk?

Shit man... even DISCO came out recently and said after his early success here he got hard-headed and blind and that's what led him down his long road after he was fired, here. Perhaps Mikey will come to the same conclusion 20 years from now when he's let go.

 

[Deport Ogie]

Oh you guys are definitely right. It didn't START this way. But unfortunately it seems like a combination of early success and the attendant immunity granted makes coaches lazy, stubborn and ego-blind. Who'd a thunk?

To be fair and to agree with your point, Sullivan is hardly the first coach to win and be thus afflicted and he shan't be the last. I feel like there are plenty of examples of NHL coaches who had a few cups or a run at a cup and immediately knew better than anyone else in the immediate circle. This is just the one we see as being closest to us at this time.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

To be fair and to agree with your point, Sullivan is hardly the first coach to win and be thus afflicted and he shan't be the last. I feel like there are plenty of examples of NHL coaches who had a few cups or a run at a cup and immediately knew better than anyone else in the immediate circle. This is just the one we see as being closest to us at this time.

Zero argument from me. But that makes this all the more frustrating because there is PLENTY of precedent to show that you do not do what the Penguins have done with Mike Sullivan re: coaching in the NHL.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I think it's relatively solid if not boilerplate conventional wisdom. But as usual Sullivan is a bit too rigid and treats too many players in a "one size fits all" kind of way. There's no sense to me in starting Groats in the NHL only to play him on the third line at best with like 70% D zone starts and eating pucks on the PK. Unless that's all they see in him. Play him in the role he is clearly aspiring to and is already showing signs of being capable of or allow him to work on it at the AHL level. Like you said yourself it's mostly some fine tuning re: his offensive game that needs work not standing in front of slappers.

Do you wait to slot in a player with top six talent until you feel he's ready? Or do you slide him into the lineup in a lesser role to let him build his way up? I think it depends on the player and the team's overall philosophy.

To me, it seems like the Pens think McGroarty is close to NHL ready. At that point, you also have to start managing expectations. Putting him in a modestly challenging role - third line, some PK, decent minutes but not buried - manages those expectations instead of sliding him right in with Sid or Geno.

If he struggles on the third line, there's no issue sending him down - you let him play first line minutes in the AHL and get his game going. But if he struggles off the bat with Sid or Geno, there's the potential for a greater risk in lost confidence and a tougher road to bouncing back.

If I saw more from his offense, I'd be more inclined to give him a top six role to see if he can really mesh with Sid in particular. While I don't see his game being there just yet, I do think he's one of their 12 best forwards and deserves a spot in the lineup.

Look, if this was Bedard or Cellebrini, then yeah, he's top six to start his career. But McGroarty has always been viewed as a complementary piece - potentially a very good one, but still not on that level.

Plus, let's be honest - there will be opportunities in the top six. Guys are going to get hurt.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Answer: You do the exact opposite of whatever Mike Sullivan circa 2024 wants to do.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

18 Fs less Nieto Imana Ponomarev who it feels safe to say are not making the team.

So really 15 Fs.

This is likely the F group if Lizotte isn’t ready. Someone will be on the chopping block when he’s back assuming no one else got hurt.

 

[Deport Ogie]

Also need to potentially account for whatever the frig is going on with Brian Rust.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Can't say I'm surprised to be honest, none of them stood out and did enough in camp to deserve to stick around

 

[chethejet]

Sullivan is not the coach who has power like he has. It has taken Dubas a year to see what is what and to add to the mix as to younger players and more of size, grit and compete levels. Spezza knows what is needed and so does Wilson as another set of eyes. So I do expect Sullivan to be aware of the style, and kind of game they want. Dubas has given Sullivan kudos for his coaching acumen but now it is about doing something this year. PP has to be much better and the coaching that Sullivan has insisted on is not going to cut it now. He needs to adapt or be gone after this year as traded or fired. .

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Do you wait to slot in a player with top six talent until you feel he's ready? Or do you slide him into the lineup in a lesser role to let him build his way up? I think it depends on the player and the team's overall philosophy.

To me, it seems like the Pens think McGroarty is close to NHL ready. At that point, you also have to start managing expectations. Putting him in a modestly challenging role - third line, some PK, decent minutes but not buried - manages those expectations instead of sliding him right in with Sid or Geno.

If he struggles on the third line, there's no issue sending him down - you let him play first line minutes in the AHL and get his game going. But if he struggles off the bat with Sid or Geno, there's the potential for a greater risk in lost confidence and a tougher road to bouncing back.

If I saw more from his offense, I'd be more inclined to give him a top six role to see if he can really mesh with Sid in particular. While I don't see his game being there just yet, I do think he's one of their 12 best forwards and deserves a spot in the lineup.

Look, if this was Bedard or Cellebrini, then yeah, he's top six to start his career. But McGroarty has always been viewed as a complementary piece - potentially a very good one, but still not on that level.

Plus, let's be honest - there will be opportunities in the top six. Guys are going to get hurt.

Then we agree... send him down to the AHL and let him work on the offensive side of the puck. I totally agree that you must manage things player to player as opposed to just using a blanket philosophy for everyone (ahem) but how does Groats really benefit by playing like 12-15 minutes mired in the DZ with Lars Eller (at best) eating pucks on the PK from NHL shooters? Are we TRYING to make him skip teams again?

If he must stay in the NHL due to a Rust injury then put him up there and see what happens. If he falters send him down... like you said... not a big deal.

EDIT: I take your point about the potential of losing confidence in that role but that can also very much be a thing slogging it out night after night in a Sullivan bottom six and PK while posting up a like... a secondary assist every five games on average or something because you just happened to overlap a shift with the top two lines.

 

[eXile3]

What's hilarious is that he WAS a player development coach in Chicago, and he DID play young players when he first became Pittsburgh's coach.

The dude has just gone soft in the head. It makes no damn sense.

It’s why you need to cycle coaches out every handful of years. They get set in their ways and afraid to take risks.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Also totally unrelated note but damn I wish the Penguins would have been aggressive years ago re: Poulin and just found him a new home while he had some value. Woof. Throw another one on the pile, I guess.