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BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
35,533
30,180
He's like the 15th-20th best left winger in the NHL until he shows he's not. I only went that low because his defense is bad too.

1st line - probably deserving on a per team basis
2nd line - 100% deserving, at minimum
3rd line - What are you doing?
4th line - Quit coaching permanently

Again it's a situational thing and team dependent. Phil Kessel played third line here... he's not a third liner. Ruslan Fedotenko played 2LW here... he's not a 2LW etc etc.

This is boring and largely couched in semantics and hair-splitting. I don't even have one single thing against Bunting and think that he's been excellent here so far.
 
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Ryder71

Registered User
Nov 24, 2017
24,278
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Except they don't, really. We like to keep an oral tradition of the meme "Malkin gets Crosby's leftovers" and "they've never had good wings" and really, neither of them are true in reality.

I would say up until 2015, they were largely handcuffed by cap space. After that, they've always had adequate top 6 wings. Problem is, people might look to a team like Tampa and be like "well they have Kucherov! We don't have one of those!" and they proceed to say our guys suck. In reality, if you look at ALL 30-32 teams and their predominant top 6 wings, we're no better or worse than anyone. Especially considering we live in a cap world and our two top 6 centers are generational talents making $8.7 or $9.5mil for the most part. Something not many teams had so of course there has to be some give and take.

I will reply to that - I believe they CAN make the playoffs. They are CAPABLE of it. Now the probability of "WILL THEY?" is completely different.
When you're best players are 37 and 38 despite being all time greats with a mediocre at best supporting cast, that's not a recipe for success. I'd be very surprised if they're even .500 this year. And keep in mind that their big two were healthy each of the last two years. That's not likely to continue.
 

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
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Jun 13, 2010
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When you're best players are 37 and 38 despite being all time greats with a mediocre at best supporting cast, that's not a recipe for success. I'd be very surprised if they're even .500 this year. And keep in mind that their big two were healthy each of the last two years. That's not likely to continue.
I don't disagree but it's still a very capable roster. Honestly, a handful of powerplay goals and average goaltending gets them the WC2 last year.
 

Ryder71

Registered User
Nov 24, 2017
24,278
11,530
I don't disagree but it's still a very capable roster. Honestly, a handful of powerplay goals and average goaltending gets them the WC2 last year.
But their best players are a year older and their supporting cast is as well. Rookies or young guys look to be blocked for the most part. In addition their team speed is bottom five in the league. How many points do you expect this season? Not how many they could get, how many realistically do you think they will get?
 

WickedWrister

Registered User
Jul 25, 2008
10,544
5,104
Philadelphia
Yeah the over/under on regular season points is 90.5.

+120 to make the playoffs, -150 to miss it.

OTT, DET, NYI, WAS, BUF are probably our competition for the WC2 spot.
 

Ryder71

Registered User
Nov 24, 2017
24,278
11,530
Yeah the over/under on regular season points is 90.5.

+120 to make the playoffs, -150 to miss it.

OTT, DET, NYI, WAS, BUF are probably our competition for the WC2 spot.
Honestly, I looked at their schedule, they have a 7 game road trip. Never happened before that I can remember. They also have a couple long homestands. When you have long road trips or homestands you tend to get a bit stale. We'll see how it all plays out but I came up with 34-38-10.
 

GilbertSeinfeld

Registered User
Mar 4, 2024
1,359
1,758
Yeah the over/under on regular season points is 90.5.

+120 to make the playoffs, -150 to miss it.

OTT, DET, NYI, WAS, BUF are probably our competition for the WC2 spot.
Will this be the year Buffalo finally puts it together, or will they have another "wait until next year" kind of season?
 

AuroraBorealis

Back-to-back hater
Oct 16, 2018
19,927
17,234
Vancouver, British Columbia
Again it's a situational thing and team dependent. Phil Kessel played third line here... he's not a third liner. Ruslan Fedotenko played 2LW here... he's not a 2LW etc etc.

This is boring and largely couched in semantics and hair-splitting. I don't even have one single thing against Bunting and think that he's been excellent here so far.
And because it's team-dependant, I'm giving you the averages of what would happen with him on a team.
It's not me making it boring. It's you guys pushing back against reality.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
35,533
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And because it's team-dependant, I'm giving you the averages of what would happen with him on a team.
It's not me making it boring. It's you guys pushing back against reality.

Yes yes we know... "reality." We get to hear about how clueless, delusional and ignorant of the sport we all are from you quite a bit. I'm sure your track record is unimpeachable and you've never been wrong in your assessment so who am I to talk? You ARE Canadian, after all. That gives you special insight. Just like being American gives me special insight into bald eagles, obesity and firearms.
 
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SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
Sponsor
Jun 13, 2010
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But their best players are a year older and their supporting cast is as well. Rookies or young guys look to be blocked for the most part. In addition their team speed is bottom five in the league. How many points do you expect this season? Not how many they could get, how many realistically do you think they will get?
WC2 - 5pts +/- 2
 

AuroraBorealis

Back-to-back hater
Oct 16, 2018
19,927
17,234
Vancouver, British Columbia
Yes yes we know... "reality." We get to hear about how clueless, delusional and ignorant of the sport we all are from you quite a bit. I'm sure your track record is unimpeachable and you've never been wrong in your assessment so who am I to talk? You ARE Canadian, after all. That gives you special insight. Just like being American gives me special insight into bald eagles, obesity and firearms.
It's not that you guys are ignorant.
It's that your primary focus in convos with me is contradicting me, instead of looking at what's actually happening.
There's so much stupid pushback for no reason on this board.
The guy's crushing it so far in the NHL. Better than the vast majority of left wingers. That's a fact. This should not be debatable for veteran fans.
This convo should have been over a long time ago.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
95,374
77,164
Joshua Tree, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
It's not that you guys are ignorant.
It's that your primary focus in convos with me is contradicting me, instead of looking at what's actually happening.
There's so much stupid pushback for no reason on this board.
The guy's crushing it so far in the NHL. Better than the vast majority of left wingers. That's a fact. This should not be debatable for veteran fans.
This convo should have been over a long time ago.

Saying Michael Buntintg and Jake Guentzel are comparable producers if given the same usage would receive contradictory responses on any platform.
 
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Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
56,456
48,454
Would that be in the same way Guentzel has benefited from playing with Crosby?

Look, I'm not sitting here saying Bunting is as good or better than Guentzel. He's not and never will be. Fact is though, from the stats and eye test (from his time here) suggests that it wasn't a bad consolation prize to get in the trade, especially when he's coming in at half the cost and has a pinch of nasty in his game (which the entire forum complained about not having since Horny left).

Why are people so down on the guy? Truthfully, I think it's because some people hate Dubas and want to go out of their way to hate any trade he makes or player he brings in. Any objective person should be happy with Bunting since his arrival here.
Again, where in my post or even the others in the discussion, are we "down on the guy"? The discussion that I had an interest in was this idea that Bunting a]is nearly as productive as Jake (with the implication we don't lose much offense with this swap) because of his ES/60 stat and b]he's a legitimate top line player and not more of a middle sixer.

Both are flawed and both ignore context. Bunting's one good ES year was when he literally rode shotgun to the league MVP who scored 60 goals that year, 44 on ES. Other than that, he's been in that 50-ish point range. Him not getting the same PP opportunities as Jake doesn't suddenly balance out the difference in talent. That's like saying if Bunting had McDavid on his wing he'd be producing what Draisaitl does simply because you add his 58 ES points to Draisaitl's PP points and suddenly he's over 100 points. That's not how it works.

Like I said in a follow-up post, he's fine for what he is. He's a complimentary winger who can be the third wheel on a line and add some grit/feistiness. But the opposite end of the spectrum is people on here acting like he's a legitimate scoring winger who will make us forget Jake's totals.

(That's not touching on the discussion of what a first line player is versus a middle six player -- but I think anyone who thinks 50 points is what is typically seen as a top line player is stretching the definition greatly)
 

Fordy

Registered User
May 28, 2008
26,867
3,065
seems like a lot of people will be surprised when sid and geno play at least almost every game this year. they take excellent care of themselves in game nowadays. would be nice to make the playoffs and see what they look like when they throw caution to the wind
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
56,456
48,454
Saying Michael Buntintg and Jake Guentzel are comparable producers if given the same usage would receive contradictory responses on any platform.
I look forward to being proven wrong this season when Bunting scores at a point per game now that he'll get Jake's minutes. Anything less than that 80-ish point range should be seen as a disappointment.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
35,533
30,180
seems like a lot of people will be surprised when sid and geno play at least almost every game this year. they take excellent care of themselves in game nowadays. would be nice to make the playoffs and see what they look like when they throw caution to the wind

I get pretty negative about their chances of staying healthy sometimes but this is a good point. They both noticeably take far more care in games the last few years. Put themselves in way fewer bad situations. It results in less overall opportunities but the tradeoff seems worth it at this stage.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
95,374
77,164
Joshua Tree, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
I get pretty negative about their chances of staying healthy sometimes but this is a good point. They both noticeably take far more care in games the last few years. Put themselves in way fewer bad situations. It results in less overall opportunities but the tradeoff seems worth it at this stage.

Plus most of their injuries have been due to cheapshots with say what you want about the game, but a lot of that has been taken out of it the last 10 years.
 

Ryder71

Registered User
Nov 24, 2017
24,278
11,530
seems like a lot of people will be surprised when sid and geno play at least almost every game this year. they take excellent care of themselves in game nowadays. would be nice to make the playoffs and see what they look like when they throw caution to the wind
So, they didn't take excellent care of themselves when they were younger and missed a lot of games?
 

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