GDT: 2024-2025 Training Camp

[Sidney the Kidney]

Some additional observations from reporters:





And from Taylor Haase:

Mike Sullivan on what can be read into in the power-play work today, the first day they’ve worked on it: “Nothing.”

Literally every successful PP unit uses the bumper effectively. But apparently, if Kingerski is to be believed, we're the one team who seems to want to buck the trend and look smart doing our own thing.

f*** off, Sullivan, you arrogant jerk.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Literally every successful PP unit uses the bumper effectively. But apparently, if Kingerski is to be believed, we're the one team who seems to want to buck the trend and look smart doing our own thing.

f*** off, Sullivan, you arrogant jerk.

I will say it wouldn't surprise me for Kingerski to be wrong. Because, you know, track record with the guy...

That said, not bringing in an assistant coach as a power play specialist was a huge mistake by Dubas. If Sullivan wanted to bring in Dan Quinn, the compromise should have been that the Pens also add someone who can inject life into the power play.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

How can people not be utterly sick of this guy?

So sorry for asking what should be logical questions, Mike. This IS the time of year where teams generally work on things that they are going to... you know... use in-season.

Cool that they are just f***ing around, though. About what I expected. IF I believed that.

The bolded is the most infuriating part. Because during the season when the PP struggles, Sullivan gives his canned speech about how they haven't had a chance to work on it because they've had a stretch of 7 games in 13 days on the road and not much practice time. But apparently now, when they have ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD, it's still not a priority.

The season hasn't even started yet and Sullivan's already doing shit that's going to make my head explode.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The bolded is the most infuriating part. Because during the season when the PP struggles, Sullivan gives his canned speech about how they haven't had a chance to work on it because they've had a stretch of 7 games in 13 days on the road and not much practice time. But apparently now, when they have ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD, it's still not a priority.

The season hasn't even started yet and Sullivan's already doing shit that's going to make my head explode.

It's just straight up ego and laziness at this point.

Dude doesn't have the energy or wherewithal to make even a halfhearted effort to explain loosely what they have planned to address the thing that cost them a playoff spot last season. Who cares, right?

 

[eXile3]

Acciari is the type of player that if NHL GMs were smart would have played 3-4 years in a limited role in his prime and then disappeared.

But since they’re not a 32 year old iteration of what was already a borderline player takes the roster spot of someone more deserving.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Im just exhausted tbh. Will watch this season to see Sid/Geno rise up the all time lists. Other than that, Sullivan will be doing his best to neuter the stars and give us boring and lifeless hockey

 

[SEALBound]

Called it earlier this summer.

Yeah, I mean it makes sense though to start him there. I think he's looking for a strong rebound being that he's on a 1x1. This may be one of his last chances to pull off a good season and get paid. Starting with Sid as your center is a prime position to be in that may not ever come around again.

Literally every successful PP unit uses the bumper effectively. But apparently, if Kingerski is to be believed, we're the one team who seems to want to buck the trend and look smart doing our own thing.

f*** off, Sullivan, you arrogant jerk.

The bar is low for us. Oh so very, very low.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I honestly have no issues with Beauvillier playing with Crosby to start. The only change I'd make to the expected lineup is bump Acciari out and Puustinen up to L3, giving them:

Beauvillier-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
O'Connor-Eller-Puustinen
Lizotte-Hayes-Glass
Acciari-Poulin

I'm fine with McGroarty, Ponomarev, Koivunen and such starting in the AHL because I think dominating the AHL in a big role is better for their development than starting in a bottom-6 role in the NHL.

I have a bigger issue with Sullivan's powerplay lineup decisions because I think it would be set up significantly better with:

PP1: Crosby, Malkin, Bunting, Puustinen and Karlsson
PP2: O'Connor, Hayes, Rust, Rakell and Letang

I'm also totally good with Rakell on PP1 and Puustinen/Grzelcyk on PP2, depending on the game situation (Grzelcyk if they have a lead, Puustinen if they are trying to score).

 

[SEALBound]

I honestly have no issues with Beauvillier playing with Crosby to start. The only change I'd make to the expected lineup is bump Acciari out and Puustinen up to L3, giving them:

Beauvillier-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
O'Connor-Eller-Puustinen
Lizotte-Hayes-Glass
Acciari-Poulin

I'm fine with McGroarty, Ponomarev, Koivunen and such starting in the AHL because I think dominating the AHL in a big role is better for their development than starting in a bottom-6 role in the NHL.

I have a bigger issue with Sullivan's powerplay lineup decisions because I think it would be set up significantly better with:

PP1: Crosby, Malkin, Bunting, Puustinen and Karlsson
PP2: O'Connor, Hayes, Rust, Rakell and Letang

I'm also totally good with Rakell on PP1 and Puustinen/Grzelcyk on PP2, depending on the game situation (Grzelcyk if they have a lead, Puustinen if they are trying to score).

What's nice is that - I believe - with the combinations of the bottom 6 players we have, we can make two third lines. The only change I would like, out of pure tweaking for the sake of tweaking, is to shift Glass or Hayes to 3C (whichever one would be more offensive-minded and capable). Then run a 3rd line scoring line and a 4th line defensive shutdown line. Basically, eliminate the prototypical "4th line".

DOC-Glass-Puustinen
Lizotte-Eller-Hayes
Acciari-Poulin

for example.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Rust, Sheary, Wilson, Kuhnackl played bottom 6 minutes when called up in ‘15-16.

I don’t see the problem with playing prospects in the bottom 6, especially when we have 3-4 alright options for linemates in Hayes, Lizotte, Eller and potentially OC if he is not in top 6.

Puustinen is a very similar player and profile to Sheary, and more proven than Sheary was when he got the chance.

I just don’t understand why Sullivan has gotten so far away from what worked for him initially.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rust, Sheary, Wilson, Kuhnackl played bottom 6 minutes when called up in ‘15-16.

I don’t see the problem with playing prospects in the bottom 6, especially when we have 3-4 alright options for linemates in Hayes, Lizotte, Eller and potentially OC if he is not in top 6.

Puustinen is a very similar player and profile to Sheary, and more proven than Sheary was when he got the chance.

I just don’t understand why Sullivan has gotten so far away from what worked for him initially.

They also didn't start in those roles, they weren't called up until the December/January timeframe. That's where I'm at with McGroarty and Ponomarev right now, I want them to get half a season with WBS and then go up to bigger roles (McGroarty L1 LW, Ponomarev 3C) rather than starting them in the NHL immediately in lesser roles.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Rust, Sheary, Wilson, Kuhnackl played bottom 6 minutes when called up in ‘15-16.

I don’t see the problem with playing prospects in the bottom 6, especially when we have 3-4 alright options for linemates in Hayes, Lizotte, Eller and potentially OC if he is not in top 6.

Puustinen is a very similar player and profile to Sheary, and more proven than Sheary was when he got the chance.

I just don’t understand why Sullivan has gotten so far away from what worked for him initially.

Those four were "his guys" when he was coaching in WBS. I think that's all there is to that. If you're not forcing your way onto the roster like Marino or there's no choice after a ton of injuries/waivers (Puusty), forget about getting a chance.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

They also didn't start in those roles, they weren't called up until the December/January timeframe. That's where I'm at with McGroarty and Ponomarev right now, I want them to get half a season with WBS and then go up to bigger roles (McGroarty L1 LW, Ponomarev 3C) rather than starting them in the NHL immediately in lesser roles.

Why wait 2-3 months to ice the best roster? I also don’t see how there’s bigger roles for the taking in December vs now. there’s 60 min of ice to go around, with a pretty clearly defined top 6 and special teams. Basically banking on material injuries opening up jobs which you can’t really plan to happen on a specific date (ie Dec/Jan).

Doesn’t need to be everyone at once, and I understand waiver status, but Puustinen should be in. If they want Pono, McG, Koivunen, etc to get time in the org that’s fine; but let’s see if a Poulin, Gruden, Poolparty (not that I care much about them as likely long term fringe guys) can inject some life into the 4th line too. Kuhnackl and Wilson were nothing burgers long term but provided some immediate “jump”.

Anything to show some real accountability rather than just talking about it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think Dubas is blameless for the bottom of the roster either, he's giving Sullivan more of these crappy veteran toys to play with by bringing on Hayes and Glass while not removing any of the crappy guys he has. There was no reason he had to add all of Hayes, Glass, Beauvillier and Lizotte while also keeping all of the guys they finished last year with. They basically only subtracted Smith in terms of guys who mattered.

Why wait 2-3 months to ice the best roster? I also don’t see how there’s bigger roles for the taking in December vs now. there’s 60 min of ice to go around, with a pretty clearly defined top 6 and special teams. Basically banking on material injuries opening up jobs which you can’t really plan to happen on a specific date (ie Dec/Jan).

Doesn’t need to be everyone at once, and I understand waiver status, but Puustinen should be in. If they want Pono, McG, Koivunen, etc to get time in the org that’s fine; but let’s see if a Poulin, Gruden, Poolparty (not that I care much about them as likely long term fringe guys) can inject some life into the 4th line too. Kuhnackl and Wilson were nothing burgers long term but provided some immediate “jump”.

Because if it's better for the long-term development of the prospect to keep them down for 2-3 months, they should be keeping them down for 2-3 months. That's exactly why I think McGroarty and Ponomarev should spend time in the AHL even though I think they're NHL ready.

Puustinen should be in the lineup, but he's not even a "prospect who needs more seasoning". That's just a bad lineup decision by Sullivan. Beyond that, none of the other prospects really scream "they have to be playing immediately" to me. Like I said above, I'm totally fine going into the year with O'Connor-Eller-Puustinen and Lizotte-Hayes-Glass as their bottom-6.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't think Dubas is blameless for the bottom of the roster either, he's giving Sullivan more of these crappy veteran toys to play with by bringing on Hayes and Glass while not removing any of the crappy guys he has. There was no reason he had to add all of Hayes, Glass, Beauvillier and Lizotte while also keeping all of the guys they finished last year with. They basically only subtracted Smith in terms of guys who mattered.

lol Dubas didn't make that decision... his boss did.

Or maybe he did, I dunno. He seems like kind of a goof so it would track.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Because if it's better for the long-term development of the prospect to keep them down for 2-3 months, they should be keeping them down for 2-3 months. That's exactly why I think McGroarty and Ponomarev should spend time in the AHL even though I think they're NHL ready.

I acknowledged this. That is fine.

My whole point is I think we have a real problem when no one is getting the opportunity to push the Glasses, Acciaris, Hayes of the world.

Acciari should have to compete for a gig after last season. Hayes and Glass you were paid to take, it should be no issue to sit them/waive them, so they should have to earn a job.

 

[Gurglesons]

The best thing for long term development for any player on the Pittsburgh Penguins is to be traded.

I can't think of a team that has handled development worse since around 2019.

 

[Empoleon8771]

lol Dubas didn't make that decision... his boss did.

Nah I think the Hayes and Glass additions were 100% Dubas, and it just further muddied the bottom of the roster.

In isolation, I don't actually mind any of the moves Dubas made in the off-season. I really like Lizotte and understand why they did the Hayes, Glass and Beauvillier deals. It's just dumb that he did all of those while also not subtracting more off the roster. He just added more clutter to the bottom of the roster that was already fairly cluttered.

In addition to the Smith trade, I think Eller should have been moved for futures and Hayes or Glass put in at 3C to start. Frankly they're lucky that Nieto is hurt right now, I bet he'd be the 14th forward had he been healthy.

I acknowledged this. That is fine.

My whole point is I think we have a real problem when no one is getting the opportunity to push the Glasses, Acciaris, Hayes of the world.

Acciari yes, but I think it's totally reasonable to give Hayes and Glass a chance considering they were just acquired. Not only that, Glass himself is still pretty young too, to the point where I'd question why Puljujarvi should get a look (who's older than Glass) but Glass is being considered crap depth blocking young guys.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Nah I think the Hayes and Glass additions were 100% Dubas, and it just further muddied the bottom of the roster.

In isolation, I don't actually mind any of the moves Dubas made in the off-season. I really like Lizotte and understand why they did the Hayes, Glass and Beauvillier deals. It's just dumb that he did all of those while also not subtracting more off the roster. He just added more clutter to the bottom of the roster that was already fairly cluttered.

In addition to the Smith trade, I think Eller should have been moved for futures and Hayes or Glass put in at 3C to start. Frankly they're lucky that Nieto is hurt right now, I bet he'd be the 14th forward had he been healthy.

I mean... I really do think it's a feature not a bug at this point. They intentionally stack up the roster every year with vets going into camp and preseason. It's just not a coincidence or oversight at this point.

I kept telling you guys they aren't gonna move Eller. Anyone can see plain as day that they consider him a big part of the team, now.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Acciari yes, but I think it's totally reasonable to give Hayes and Glass a chance considering they were just acquired. Not only that, Glass himself is still pretty young too, to the point where I'd question why Puljujarvi should get a look (who's older than Glass) but Glass is being considered crap depth blocking young guys.

I’m not saying Glass or Hayes are definite crap- you’d notice that I’d have them in my bottom 6 on the 3rd line. I am saying that bc they were crap in diff situations last year there should be more opportunities for the guys below them to push for their roles and therefore Glass and Hayes would have to outplay someone to keep/win their role. Rather than it being handed to them. Same with Acciari.

Just want to see some of the fringe, lower line Fs have to actually justify their existence, because they haven’t had to do so the last few years.

Nah I think the Hayes and Glass additions were 100% Dubas, and it just further muddied the bottom of the roster.

Sullivan really liked Hayes at the World Championships. Based on what Ryan Whitney said it’s reasonable to assume Sully pushed for him.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sullivan really liked Hayes at the World Championships. Based on what Ryan Whitney said it’s reasonable to assume Sully pushed for him.

I think there is a very, very good chance that Sullivan saw the Hayes acquisition as utterly brilliant because he considers him a great player that they got paid to take.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I think there is a very, very good chance that Sullivan saw the Hayes acquisition as utterly brilliant because he considers him a great player that they got paid to take.

And maybe he’s correct!

But let’s see Sullivan put guys like Puus, Gruden, Poulin, Poolparty in spots where they confirm to us that they are indeed shit, and Kevin Hayes is indeed a better option.

It’s what needed to happen with Carter, Acciari, Nieto, and the laundry list of bad forwards we’ve iced in previous years.

I’m not even one of these HCMS hates youth guys, I just think he is massively enabling complacency.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I’m not even one of these HCMS hates youth guys, I just think he is massively enabling complacency.

Much as Sullivan irritates me I don't think he does, either. Not more than most other HCs at least. But to the bolded... yes... that's exactly it. The sheer indifference and frankly laziness is deeply rooted, now.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Much as Sullivan irritates me I don't think he does, either. Not more than most other HCs at least. But to the bolded... yes... that's exactly it. The sheer indifference and frankly laziness is deeply rooted, now.

There’s been very little success here the last 5.5 years and it just doesn’t feel like the process has changed in response to that at all.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

There’s been very little success here the last 5.5 years and it just doesn’t feel like the process has changed in response to that at all.

Hence my frustration.

Cramming your fingers in your ears and saying "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU" while the building burns down is a really, really stupid look.