GDT: 2024-2025 Training Camp

[The Old Master]

Don't know why more guys don't do it. Everyone knows wearing Fedorovs white Nike's shaves .91 seconds off your blueline to blueline.

Good to hear McGroarty is still anticipating at a high level and being in the right spots even against stiffer competition.

Also, very disappointed no one has given him the deep cut nickname of "Roy". Rutger, Rutger Hauer, Rutger Hauer played Roy Batty in Bladerunner. Roy kinda sounds like a part of McGroarty.

Bah, whatever.

better than "i am groat"

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Last note, walking out to my car and a black jeep wrangler with monster truck tires comes flying through...Jeff Carter.

This is perhaps the least surprising thing I've heard in my entire life.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

The problem with this comparison is that DOC and Puustinen are very different players with different skills who play the game differently. But there's a reason DOC got the bump to line 1 and Puustinen settled in on the 3rd line in the later part of the season. DOC is fast, forechecks hard, and can lay a hit. Puustinen has decent speed and a lethal shot...when he can get into the position to do it as Emp pointed out. It's silly to compare the two but I think we've seen over time that a guy like DOC will last longer than a guy like Puustinen, especially given the biases of our coaching staff. I think one of Puustinen's biggest shortcomings is a lack of battle and physicality. I think that is what will ultimately hold him back. Now, in a vacuum, that's okay because that's not his game. He does find other ways to contribute, but when you're building out a roster, it's very easy not to insert him in favor of others. Moreover, I think it only makes sense to put him in a top 6 role, but again, there are others ahead of him that I would put there (that could change as the season wears on).

Puustinen's biggest opportunity to solidify his spot in the lineup is right at the beginning of the season when they send McGroarty, Pono, Broz, Koivunen, etc back to WBS. If he can get in on the 3rd line and pump a few in, it might be hard to take him out.

I always thought he was more of a wing, but being that we traded our best center for a high-end LW, I don't hate the idea of guys like Poulin and Broz being pushed to center.

I don't get this battle and compete bollocks about Doc vs Puustinen. For one it was more about a left winger vs right winger for why Doc got the bump but in the end Puustinen was never shy about playing in the dirty areas and was quick enough to move in and out of the slot to the corner and behind the net and when push came to shove, he wasn't looking out of place. Even his metrics, if you want to go down the analytics route, Puustinen was a better player that still got shit usage anyway.

It's less about Doc than it is giving players like Glass a spot over him on the right side.

Also in the case for Beauvillier, he's produced better with top players and has a higher upside so him seeing a lot of reps with Sid and Rust in camp so far is something I'm not shocked about and expected. Beauvillier is also faster and understands the give and go nature of Crosby's game and looked like he was picking up those movements that Sid needs from his wingers - like what made Dupuis and Kunitz have such great chemistry with him.

Doc does have some nice looks in the camp but he very much looks like a speedy third line checker.

Yeah, sorry I was directing that at Goody specifically since he said he was there and sent a few pics.

I just always fear the day we get that first report that it looks like Sid has truly lost a full-step. I refuse to feel officially old until Sid retires, and when we hear that I know the writing will be on the wall.

I'm trying to look at Sid's production those last 13 games of the season (and yes I'm picking an amount of games that makes it look more rainbows and sunshine) where he had 25 pts with similar line-mates to who he will or should have this season. He mentioned in a presser that they were trending the right way last year and ran out of runway but want to keep building off that end of season momentum.

With a decent PP and staving off father time another season, I'm hopeful for another 90+ season or two until the league expands again and pumps scoring up just in time for him to hit his 40's.

The last 13 games they were scoring at a pace that is not realistic to sustain but also bled goals at a rate that no team would make the playoffs with. That includes his line in addition to the team as a whole, his line was very guilty of giving up as many as it scored.

That's not trending anywhere really.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It really comes down to what Sid feels and wants. I doubt Sully supersedes that.

While I agree with this to an extent, I think it's more of a suggestion and the coach doing his option to allow him a chance to do what he suggests when it doesn't work, a tit for tat situation. Because in camp I'm not sure if it's Sid that wants Beauvillier there or Sully because Sid and Rust were buzzing with him and looked like they were being tried a lot to be an option next season whether off the bat or just in the back pocket if something else doesn't work.

Just like seeing the trio of Pono, Geno, Raks - all three looked to be feeding off each other.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't get this battle and compete bollocks about Doc vs Puustinen. For one it was more about a left winger vs right winger for why Doc got the bump but in the end Puustinen was never shy about playing in the dirty areas and was quick enough to move in and out of the slot to the corner and behind the net and when push came to shove, he wasn't looking out of place. Even his metrics, if you want to go down the analytics route, Puustinen was a better player that still got shit usage anyway.

It's less about Doc than it is giving players like Glass a spot over him on the right side.

Also in the case for Beauvillier, he's produced better with top players and has a higher upside so him seeing a lot of reps with Sid and Rust in camp so far is something I'm not shocked about and expected. Beauvillier is also faster and understands the give and go nature of Crosby's game and looked like he was picking up those movements that Sid needs from his wingers - like what made Dupuis and Kunitz have such great chemistry with him.

Doc does have some nice looks in the camp but he very much looks like a speedy third line checker.


The last 13 games they were scoring at a pace that is not realistic to sustain but also bled goals at a rate that no team would make the playoffs with. That includes his line in addition to the team as a whole, his line was very guilty of giving up as many as it scored.

That's not trending anywhere really.

With regards to DOC vs. Beauvillier on Sid's line, the one and only thing I prefer about DOC being there is at least the entire line isn't under 6'0. A concern I'd have with Sid/Rust/Beau is they'd be a line that has to generate offense off the rush because they'll be too easily boxed out from effective cycles.

 

[steelcityassault]

McGroat is sitting in the stands watching the other groups practice by himself. Kid is obsessed with hockey

 

[Honour Over Glory]

With regards to DOC vs. Beauvillier on Sid's line, the one and only thing I prefer about DOC being there is at least the entire line isn't under 6'0. A concern I'd have with Sid/Rust/Beau is they'd be a line that has to generate offense off the rush because they'll be too easily boxed out from effective cycles.

Are we pretending Doc played up to his size? Because most times he played like he mentally thought he was the same size as Jake.

 

[SEALBound]

Doc does have some nice looks in the camp but he very much looks like a speedy third line checker.

Which is what he is and probably where he should be in an ideal world. No one is saying that DOC is a first-line talent.

Puustinen is also likely going to top out as a 3rd line skill guy. That's fine as well. I just don't see this ultra high-end untapped potential in him.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

McGroat is sitting in the stands watching the other groups practice by himself. Kid is obsessed with hockey

Sully told him to sit and watch veteran greats like Acciari to absorb being a pro at this level.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yeah, that math checks out. Scored a point on 23 of the Pens 40 powerplay goals last season, makes for 8 on 14.

I'd love to say their ceiling is higher than slighty worse than middle of the pack, but I can't even fall back on anything more than a handful of games all season. I've also been advocating we switch it up to a 1-3-1 powerplay to create all those offence triangles and utilize Karlsson on the point more, but don't even know if we have the horses to fill it out properly at every other spot.

Guentzel was very under-utilized here as bumper, for sure. Once they got the puck to him he was very dangerous, but he just didn't get it enough.
Bunting is gonna be more useful in that role with his style of play meshing more with their schematic.

I'd be down for 1-3-1. Open to a lot of things after the misery of the last 2 years' PP1's.

Two things that could help a lot for me = Malkin moved to right wall and Karlsson being aggressive with available space.
I wanna see Malkin and EK passing less to each other, and separating them positionally would help. It would make EK take the lazy option less.
I like Crosby on the left wall, despite the handedness. He's always been very good there. It would spread out our passing more, and make it less predictable for opposition boxes.

Malkin's point shot isn't leading to anything. He needs to be closer to the net and shoot from angles that he's more likely to score on at this age. Also if he has a segment of time where he's giving away the puck a lot (tends to happen), I'd like to see a Penguin behind him when that happens.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are we pretending Doc played up to his size? Because most times he played like he mentally thought he was the same size as Jake.

Disagree completely. DOC used his size around the boards and the net a ton.

 

[steelcityassault]

Sully told him to sit and watch veteran greats like Acciari to absorb being a pro at this level.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1837138880379674876

Disagree completely. DOC used his size around the boards and the net a ton.

A ton is a stretch. He had moments where he did but consistency wasn't there when he was in the top 6. The thing about Doc is that it's a tale of 3 versions.

Third line version - He was consistently good.

Second line version - He was better defensively while putting up good numbers with Geno.

First line version - He started to pull a Rust. Disappeared defensively and didn't do the things that made him a strong third liner.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Ok Kingerski...

NHL EDGE Puck and Player Tracking Statistics - Comparisons

Compare National Hockey League players, goalies and teams with NHL EDGE Puck and Player Tracking statistics including skating speed, skating distance, shot speed, shot and save location, and zone time for National Hockey League players and teams.

edge.nhl.com

 

[Gurglesons]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1837138880379674876

A ton is a stretch. He had moments where he did but consistency wasn't there when he was in the top 6. The thing about Doc is that it's a tale of 3 versions.

Third line version - He was consistently good.

Second line version - He was better defensively while putting up good numbers with Geno.

First line version - He started to pull a Rust. Disappeared defensively and didn't do the things that made him a strong third liner.

I think you're out to lunch on this take.

DOC was fantastic to finish the year on both ends of the puck.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I think you're out to lunch on this take.

It's okay, he follows the right people to see certain things.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I’m fine with Beauvillier on L1 because O’Connor on L3 is a big boost and there really isn’t anyone that I like better on L1 than Beauviller right now. It’s going to be McGroarty’s spot by the end of the year anyway, so I’m fine with Beauvillier to start.

 

[lokomotiv15]

The last 13 games they were scoring at a pace that is not realistic to sustain but also bled goals at a rate that no team would make the playoffs with. That includes his line in addition to the team as a whole, his line was very guilty of giving up as many as it scored.

That's not trending anywhere really.

Golf season is coming to an end and its getting dreary outside so I rather put the blinders on right now and look at the 8-2-3 record and pretend as much.

But yeah, scoring at a 4.15 GPG rate in those games would have them clear of 2nd by almost 1/4 GPG over the course of the year, and mostly at 5-on-5 as well, so extremely unsustainable. Were actually only allowing .30 gpg more than their season long average in those games while being + 1.06 GPG higher in that time which was at least more enjoyable to watch.

Not sustainable, but we finally got the high scoring, defensively porous team I thought we were gonna see all season after summer '23. Only took 70 games and trading a top 3 forward of ours.

 

[SEALBound]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1837138880379674876

A ton is a stretch. He had moments where he did but consistency wasn't there when he was in the top 6. The thing about Doc is that it's a tale of 3 versions.

Third line version - He was consistently good.

Second line version - He was better defensively while putting up good numbers with Geno.

First line version - He started to pull a Rust. Disappeared defensively and didn't do the things that made him a strong third liner.

I've been saying this - this guy is poised for a bounce back year. He didn't get injured and he didn't forget how to play or are we seeing old age creep up. He got traded twice in short order from one end of the country to the other and then 3/4 way back. New teams, cities, players, coaches, lineups, etc...it's a lot. I think resettling in Pittsburgh and starting out with Sid and Rust, given what his strengths are, could be really good for that line - him in particular.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Which is what he is and probably where he should be in an ideal world. No one is saying that DOC is a first-line talent.

Puustinen is also likely going to top out as a 3rd line skill guy. That's fine as well. I just don't see this ultra high-end untapped potential in him.

With most Forwards in this league, the difference between top-six and 3rd liner production is just usage and linemate quality.
You can make someone's point totals look bad or good pretty easily, if you're the coach.
Glass had a season like this. He got 15 mins a night and linemates he didn't deserve. So he got 35 points and people got hopeful with him.
The O'Connor hype is a result of getting 6 more minutes per game than the prior year, and getting to be with Sid a lot. If he didn't then no one would care about him.

Forward takes on boards like this are rooted in season-end point totals. Season-end point totals are dictated by usage more than the player's fluctuating level.
So it's obviously gonna hurt the opinions on Puustinen when he plays that much less than DOC.
Puustinen played 621 minutes, and DOC played 1244. Double.

But you gotta ask yourself what you think would have happened if he got the same usage.

 

[Ugene Magic]

If this is true, then this assumes Sid no longer wanted Guentzel. I highly doubt it.

Sid has less power than we expected, and this off-season proved it.

What are you talking about?

Jake was injured and traded away. Sid has no powers over guys re-signing with the team. Yeah, he was bummed out, and his little hissy fit probably cost them a playoff birth. Then he took off on a tear.

So I don't know what you are goin' on about.

 

[lokomotiv15]

Guentzel was very under-utilized here as bumper, for sure. Once they got the puck to him he was very dangerous, but he just didn't get it enough.
Bunting is gonna be more useful in that role with his style of play meshing more with their schematic.

I'd be down for 1-3-1. Open to a lot of things after the misery of the last 2 years' PP1's.

Two things that could help a lot for me = Malkin moved to right wall and Karlsson being aggressive with available space.
I wanna see Malkin and EK passing less to each other, and separating them positionally would help. It would make EK take the lazy option less.
I like Crosby on the left wall, despite the handedness. He's always been very good there. It would spread out our passing more, and make it less predictable for opposition boxes.

Malkin's point shot isn't leading to anything. He needs to be closer to the net and shoot from angles that he's more likely to score on at this age. Also if he has a segment of time where he's giving away the puck a lot (tends to happen), I'd like to see a Penguin behind him when that happens.

Yeah, its a bit frustrating. I think at some point last season after almost everything was lost, for halves of a few games they were using something I'd loosely call a 1-3-1. Problem was, even with the skill we have , they would stand still while holding the puck too long that the defenders were able to get into position to defend against any offensive lanes to use. Or worse, they would stand still and bumper the puck around so quick the PK didn't even have time to get out of position to open lanes. A few times they would go low-high, pull up the PK and then wall - low - to bumper for good chances, but most of the time they wouldn't trust their skill and would over support themselves into some weird Overload PP set up. Also only went low to high for a point shot at 5-on-5, where it started working, but left it off the drawing board on the PP.

Yeah, Malkin hasn't had the shoulder to be an option on the powerplay up top for years now and it's hurt us a lot the last couple years using him as an option and last man up there.

I like Sid on the right side for that sneak in play on a point shot, but definitely would trade that for Malkin on that right side where he used to do his best work and Crosby playing the left wall, open to the PP and the PK like Phil used to work on the right wall.

There isn't much more that can go wrong with the PP they've had the last 12 months, so interested to see what they do with it.

 

[SEALBound]

With most Forwards in this league, the difference between top-six and 3rd liner production is just usage and linemate quality.
You can make someone's point totals look bad or good pretty easily, if you're the coach.
Glass had a season like this. He got 15 mins a night and linemates he didn't deserve. So he got 35 points and people got hopeful with him.
The O'Connor hype is a result of getting 6 more minutes per game than the prior year, and getting to be with Sid a lot. If he didn't then no one would care about him.

Forward takes on boards like this are rooted in season-end point totals. Season-end point totals are dictated by usage more than the player's fluctuating level.
So it's obviously gonna hurt the opinions on Puustinen when he plays that much less than DOC.
Puustinen played 621 minutes, and DOC played 1244. Double.

But you gotta ask yourself what you think would have happened if he got the same usage.

I don't disagree but there's also an aspect of "what does XYZ line need?" that will help dictate that as well. If Puustinen was what Sid and Rust were missing, he'd have gone there. I don't buy the "LW v RW" shit as we've seen that overridden in the past.

I just don't see evidence of Puustinen being "under used" in anyway. If you want to get off the third line and get called to the 2nd line, you need to produce. Puustinen has that added burden to bear because he doesn't PK, he's not overly defensive, he's not overly physical, his forechecking is okay at best, and he was only okay on the PP. The way for him to assert himself is to put the puck in the net (or help do it). As is, he's a very middling player.

My contention is that he WILL do that but at a rate similar to that of a Simon-level player. Decent but not good or great.

To your point about season end totals, again I agree, and I think the best example of that is Rakell. He's not lighting up the scoresheet but regularly when watching replays we see his forechecking or playmaking create the play that puts the puck in the net. Sometimes he gets one on the scoresheet, sometimes not. Good example of why end of season stats don't always tell the full story. Puustinen COULD end up in that bucket but he needs to do it early in the year if he gets the spot. Unfortunately, I think Glass might get the call over him so when he does get the call, he needs to make it count.

 

[Sty1877]

Sid-Rust-Beau dominated pretty much every shift. Sid looked like Sid, all I can say. Still did his patened move where he gets the puck on the right side and glides behind the net and makes a play on the backhand.

Rutger-DOC-Poulin looked good. They definitely pushed the play towards the net and crashed. Rutger whiffed a couple chances in front for some garbage goals, but always seemed to anticipate where the puck would end up for rebounds/scrums.

A little note for us older guys who played during the 90s, Koiv and Pono both wear skates where the heels are white...shades of Fedorov/Gretzky. Both guys are flying.

Watching team 2 (Geno/Tang)practice now. Geno is coasting and looks so disinterested lol.

Agreed on a lot of points. Rutger was in the right spots and got a goal for it today. Wide open net, but he buried it.

Also agreed on Geno yesterday, he looked so tired during practice--but he did pick it up on scrimmage and played hard.

 

[Ugene Magic]

While I agree with this to an extent, I think it's more of a suggestion and the coach doing his option to allow him a chance to do what he suggests when it doesn't work, a tit for tat situation. Because in camp I'm not sure if it's Sid that wants Beauvillier there or Sully because Sid and Rust were buzzing with him and looked like they were being tried a lot to be an option next season whether off the bat or just in the back pocket if something else doesn't work.

Just like seeing the trio of Pono, Geno, Raks - all three looked to be feeding off each other.

It's camp, with a lot of bodies. Where else are they to move guys about. They are not exactly looking to set lines right now. They are trying to get guys reps in and get into a flow this early in camp.

Obvious cuts will come soon enough.