How about a deal involving Jiricek? Maybe Faulk + Jiricek for Schneider?
We may have to take back some salary.
2024-2025 Blues Trade Proposals Thread.
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We may have to take back some salary.
Dobson is a weird case. He's really good offensively--was elite in 23-24 with 70 points--but was the PPQB on the worst power play in hockey in that time. His defensive metrics look average to slightly below average, but not sure how sheltered his minutes actually were. Who is he, exactly? And will we, or NYI or whoever, pay for who he's been or who he could be?
Also, why move him? NYI have him and Romanov, Pulock and Pelech and might be about to add Schaefer. Even if they are rebuilding, Dobson is a dude you keep through the rebuild, I would imagine.
This is one where I trust our scouts, who have so rarely led us astray. If they think Dobson's worth the expenditure and would sign here long-term, go for it, but it will probably cost us a ton. I would guess one of Neighbors/Bolduc/Stenberg and a first, as others have said. Would I do it as GM? No, but i'm some jackass in a recliner. No world-class scouts are giving me any rundowns.
Kreider has 2 years left on his contract at $6.5. He's not what we need, but the contract is doable.
Have there been any reports/rumors/etc on what Dobson's potential ask might be?
I think we are overvaluing Schneider.
His performance in the cup finals last year told me and a few others here and more importantly Armstrong that he absolutely was a top 4D at minimum.
BleedBlue14
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Schneider would be a nice add. But we really lack an offensive threat/possession threat if we are looking at him long term as a top 4 guy.
We’re putting a lot of eggs in the basket of Fowler who’s getting older and long term outlook 3 years from now we’re potentially looking at Parayko, Broberg, Lindstein, Schneider. Now that can be changed throughout the years but none of those guys are geared towards creating offense, although Broberg and Parayko can certainly support offense with their skating.
That being said, short term I’d definitely look into moving a 1st for him as I think he helps really round out our d core.
Dobson would be great with his skill set. I just don’t love what his contract could look like. But being able to produce that well with the Islanders is really impressive given their forward group and structure
We’re putting a lot of eggs in the basket of Fowler who’s getting older and long term outlook 3 years from now we’re potentially looking at Parayko, Broberg, Lindstein, Schneider. Now that can be changed throughout the years but none of those guys are geared towards creating offense, although Broberg and Parayko can certainly support offense with their skating.
That being said, short term I’d definitely look into moving a 1st for him as I think he helps really round out our d core.
Dobson would be great with his skill set. I just don’t love what his contract could look like. But being able to produce that well with the Islanders is really impressive given their forward group and structure
bleedblue1223
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My view with Schneider, and it's basically the same for a C equivalent like a Ridley Greig, I'd absolutely have interest, just not at a premium for the sake of getting a young player. If we had a 2nd, I'd do a 2nd and stuff for him, but we have limited picks to work with, so burning a 1st on someone that currently doesn’t upgrade Faulk isn't a great idea IMO. Us making the playoffs and taking steps forward has changed things compared to last summer. Doing a Alex Newhook type trade would not benefit us.
Now Rasmus Andersson has some red flags with how his season went, but if we are moving a 1st, I'd rather get someone that can immediately step in, instead of hoping we pull a Broberg 2.0.
Rangers have been brought up in another thread, and honestly, I dont see many fits. Zibanejad is declining, but likely still has some years in him, but 4 more and a NMC, I just dont see a fit. I dont see them trading Trocheck. No interest in Kreider. Lafreniere looks like he could have a terrible contract if he's a 50ish point guy.
Now Rasmus Andersson has some red flags with how his season went, but if we are moving a 1st, I'd rather get someone that can immediately step in, instead of hoping we pull a Broberg 2.0.
Rangers have been brought up in another thread, and honestly, I dont see many fits. Zibanejad is declining, but likely still has some years in him, but 4 more and a NMC, I just dont see a fit. I dont see them trading Trocheck. No interest in Kreider. Lafreniere looks like he could have a terrible contract if he's a 50ish point guy.
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I'd be interested in Zibanejad as a buy low candidate. However, the NMC complicates things. Agree with your assessment on Trocheck. He'd be a great target but also don't think they are likely to move him.
Do you really expect a better player at 19 than Greig or Schneider? Those seem like what you hope for there- middle 6c or 2nd pair d. And they are about ready to step into those roles, not 4 years from now. Those are exactly guys we should be targeting if we deal pick or top prospect.
bleedblue1223
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Maybe Z could work, looks like his major issues were in November and December and he was his typical self in the 2nd half. I'd be worried about 4 years, but maybe his decline isn't as bad as I was thinking.
bleedblue1223
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I'd expect a better return if we are trading a 1st pr top prospect as the main piece. We'd be paying a premium for youth, and I'd rather go for someone a little older or with less control, but they are a better player. I'm not saying go for a 30+ year old, but take the trade we made for Faulk. We acquired a 27 year old, already playing 22+ minutes, and it was for a former 1st that has since busted and a 26 year old dman that was pushed out, and turned out to be a rental anyway.
I like Andersson. I just don't know how much that actually helps out our situation. He'll be 29 in the fall. Is going from a bunch of 30 YO dmen to... a basically 30 YO dman really a big improvement over what we already have? Faulk has 2 more years left, he'll be 35 when his contract is up. Andersson is likely looking for a 7-8 year contract, which would put him at 37 or 38 when it's over. So really, trading for him would be kicking the can down the road 2 years before we would be right back in the same situation. That would be ok if our window was 2 more years, but (ideally) that's not even close to covering our window. Not to mention that Andersson's contract will probably be 150-175% of what Faulk earns. If there are concerns over the age of our d-corps, I just don't think signing Andersson to a long-term deal and hoping he holds up until he's almost 40 at 1D cap hit is the way to fix that.
For what it's worth, I think a "downgrade" from Faulk to Schneider makes a ton of sense for us. If you want Broberg to be a rover, which is probably his best use, then he would do well with a more stay-at-home partner who can cover for him jumping up. And if that is happening, then Schneider is probably putting up career numbers as well. He's probably the all-around best option for us at this point in the "retool".
Faulk was great trade, but who do you see we could get now that fits your criteria?
bleedblue1223
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I think the issue for figuring out Broberg's partner, it's not clear what type of dman Broberg is moving forward. Is he more of a Jay Bouwmeester type that has the skating ability to be all over the ice and is involved in plays, but is really more of a defense first type of guy, or can he bring his offensive game to another level? And I think that's the disconnect right now. He started the season on a crazy streak and the rest of the way was more modest from a pure point production perspective.
If some view him as a 40+ point guy, then Schneider or someone like him probably would be fine. If he's more 30-35ish, then it changes things a bit.
I feel confident in Broberg playing 20-22+ minutes a night, but I'm uncertain on what his optimal partner looks like and I don't want to burn premium draft pick assets when we don't need to.
bleedblue1223
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And the greater point is this, we have no 2nd, 3rd, or 4th round picks this year, and no 2nds in the following 2 drafts. While we have prospects, we are limited in valuable picks to trade, so I'm only trading 1sts for locked in targets. If you do an Alex Newhook type trade on top of no 2nds, that's going to be a rough draft.
I'd rather save the pick and add to it for a Hronek caliber of player as a trade value comp, not him specifically, or look at the John Marino trade value.
I think there is some combo of undervaluing what a 1st can bring in a trade and what level of play Schneider is currently at.
I'd rather save the pick and add to it for a Hronek caliber of player as a trade value comp, not him specifically, or look at the John Marino trade value.
I think there is some combo of undervaluing what a 1st can bring in a trade and what level of play Schneider is currently at.
Majorityof1
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Only 30 D had 40+ points this year. Only 9 more had 34-39 points. Its unrealistic to expect a D to put up 40 a) without PP time and/or b) as a well-rounded 2nd pair calibur D.
Fowler had 40 and Parayko had 36. So they were both in that to 30-40 range. Broberg at 30 and Schneider at 20 with room to grow, is fine for a 2nd pair
If Fowler leaves and Parayko regresses to the mean offensively, then we can look into a sheltered offensive 3rd pair and have 2 solid defensive pairs to shelter them.
bleedblue1223
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I guess my broader point and less focus on production, some view Broberg as a true all-situations guy that will be able to drive offense on a pair and believe he should have a defense first partner, so he has that freedom. I dont think that's settled and for long stretches he looked like a Bouwmeester type, where while he has the skating ability to be all over the ice, he'd be better off with another guy that is at least on par with his offensive ability, or potentially better.
That uncertainty is why I agree with Army in that our top 4 is fine for now, unless a no-brainer comes up, I don’t think Schneider is that. I wouldn't mind looking at some younger UFA options, even if viewed as 3rd pair though.
Reality Czech
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Not to butt in but I'm not seeing a perfect comp for Faulk right now with regard to age, likely contract and role. None of the options are perfect but there do seem to be options. When I think of the Faulk/Bouw deals, both were kind of lost in the shuffle and were not highly sought after targets like someone like Anderson probably will be. Just a few names to toss out for discussion:
Dougie Hamilton - a bit pricey but if NJ would retain a little bit then it becomes more palatable. While his defense is a bit questionable, he's still elite offensively when healthy.
Connor Murphy - not sure if Hawks trade him within the division but he's a reliable middle pair RD and solid defensively. Could possibly be resigned at a reasonable number if he fits.
Filip Hronek - An interesting name who does seem to be available. I'm a bit skeptical that he's as good as his contract warrants or if playing with Hughes has made him look better than he is.
Damon Severson - honestly don't know much about the guy but he's a veteran RD that might be available.
Rasmus Ristolainen - I know he's been much maligned in the past but has seemed to redeem himself in recent years. His $5.1 million cap hit doesn't seem so bad as it once did.
Ryan Pulock - probably not interested at his $6.1 million hit for 5 more years but might as well throw him on the list. I really used to like his game but he seems to have fallen off a lot.
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Brian39
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I like Schneider's skillset as a compliment to our current blue line. He's big, physical, kills penalties and is pretty good defensively. His skillset does check a lot of the boxes I'd like in an RHD and obviously the age plus multiple years of RFA team control is great.
But he has not shown to be more than a 3rd pair D man. He is currently not as good of a D man as Faulk, he's never played anything close to the role we currently use Faulk in, and I'm not sold that he's a legit top 4 D man in the short term. He was a bottom pair D man for the Rangers most of the season and didn't get into the top 4 until after they had traded Lindgren. Even then, his even strength TOI per game was 4th on the Rangers for the 21 games post-Lindgren trade and that blue line looked like a bit of a mess down the stretch. This was the first season where he played more than 16 minutes a night.
I think he'd be a good addition if the plan was to keep Faulk, run them situationally as 4/5 D men, and hope that Schneider continues to develop into a legit top 4 guy. I don't think he's a good addition to outright replace Faulk for 2025/26 and I'm not sold that he's capable of being a full time partner for Broberg. I think there is a pretty decent chance that he is never more than a fringe top 4 guy who is best suited as a #5 D man on a contender. I'm not sure that I've ever come away from watching a Rangers game with the impression that I'd really like to pry him away.
But he has not shown to be more than a 3rd pair D man. He is currently not as good of a D man as Faulk, he's never played anything close to the role we currently use Faulk in, and I'm not sold that he's a legit top 4 D man in the short term. He was a bottom pair D man for the Rangers most of the season and didn't get into the top 4 until after they had traded Lindgren. Even then, his even strength TOI per game was 4th on the Rangers for the 21 games post-Lindgren trade and that blue line looked like a bit of a mess down the stretch. This was the first season where he played more than 16 minutes a night.
I think he'd be a good addition if the plan was to keep Faulk, run them situationally as 4/5 D men, and hope that Schneider continues to develop into a legit top 4 guy. I don't think he's a good addition to outright replace Faulk for 2025/26 and I'm not sold that he's capable of being a full time partner for Broberg. I think there is a pretty decent chance that he is never more than a fringe top 4 guy who is best suited as a #5 D man on a contender. I'm not sure that I've ever come away from watching a Rangers game with the impression that I'd really like to pry him away.
Bluesnatic27
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This is my overall sentiment. He’s a fine addition but in a Gunnarsson kind of way. Get him for a good price to add an element to the team or help form a good defensive unit. But if there are expectations of him blossoming or helping others blossom, I think we as fans are looking up the wrong tree.
Personally, I’ve always found him overrated from what he actually brings, but that’s strictly me. I’ve never been impressed with his skillset. I don’t think he’s that great defensively, and the numbers seem to back up my sentiment. I think his physicality is nice, but that isn’t a unique skill that we couldn’t find elsewhere. Maybe not for the same length of runway that Schneider has under his belt for his age. But I wouldn’t want to start throwing valuable assets that we could package for a bigger haul elsewhere.
Not having any 2nds hurts the price point a bit because I would be using the price of Buchnevich (price, not value) as a base. Something akin to a 2nd and prospect/player like Jecho or Tucker o start a conversation.
I mean, let's be realistic about what's in play here. If we're looking for guys who are ready to play, have been drafted more recently than 2018, and are RHD, then there are 29 options available (sorted by GP last season):
Moritz Seider (DET), Braden Schneider (NYR), Jordan Spence (LAK), Brandt Clarke (LAK), Brock Faber (MIN), Jamie Drysdale (PHI), Justin Barron (NSH), Drew Helleson (ANA), Kaedan Korczak (VGK), Louis Crevier (CHI), Victor Mancini (VAN), Jack Thompson (SJS), Matthew Kessel (STL), Simon Nemec (NJD), Artyom Levshunov (CHI), Maveric Lamoureux (UTA), Seamus Casey (NJD), Scott Morrow (CAR), David Jiricek (MIN), Sam Rinzel (CHI), Logan Mailloux (MTL), Tristan Luneau (ANA), Helge Grans (PHI), Maxwell Crozier (TBL), Ian Moore (ANA), Zayne Parekh (CGY), Hunter Brzustewicz (CGY), Ryan Ufko (NSH), Ville Ottavainen (SEA).
You can take Seider, Drysdale, Faber, Levshunov, Lamoureux, Morrow, Jiricek, Luneau, Rinzel, and Parekh off the table right away: they aren't going anywhere. So you're down to 19 options. If you take out folks from within our division, you're down to 16. Subtract Kessel, since we already have him, and you're down to 15. Of those 15, are any of them really definitively better than Schneider? I feel pretty ok having him at the top of that pile.
Moritz Seider (DET), Braden Schneider (NYR), Jordan Spence (LAK), Brandt Clarke (LAK), Brock Faber (MIN), Jamie Drysdale (PHI), Justin Barron (NSH), Drew Helleson (ANA), Kaedan Korczak (VGK), Louis Crevier (CHI), Victor Mancini (VAN), Jack Thompson (SJS), Matthew Kessel (STL), Simon Nemec (NJD), Artyom Levshunov (CHI), Maveric Lamoureux (UTA), Seamus Casey (NJD), Scott Morrow (CAR), David Jiricek (MIN), Sam Rinzel (CHI), Logan Mailloux (MTL), Tristan Luneau (ANA), Helge Grans (PHI), Maxwell Crozier (TBL), Ian Moore (ANA), Zayne Parekh (CGY), Hunter Brzustewicz (CGY), Ryan Ufko (NSH), Ville Ottavainen (SEA).
You can take Seider, Drysdale, Faber, Levshunov, Lamoureux, Morrow, Jiricek, Luneau, Rinzel, and Parekh off the table right away: they aren't going anywhere. So you're down to 19 options. If you take out folks from within our division, you're down to 16. Subtract Kessel, since we already have him, and you're down to 15. Of those 15, are any of them really definitively better than Schneider? I feel pretty ok having him at the top of that pile.
bleedblue1223
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Brian39
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Agree with @bleedblue1223
I'm not at all interested in excluding everyone over the age of 24 from our search. Thomas is 25 and turns 26 this summer. Kyrou just turned 27. There is no reason to exclude potential solutions just because they are the same age as Thomas and Kyrou. I think we can confidently add Broberg and Holloway to our 'core' and then we've got a nice group of young players still growing in the NHL. But that doesn't mean that every addition has to be 23/24 or younger, especially if we're talking about guys who may or may not ever be considered a 'core' piece.
I'm not at all interested in excluding everyone over the age of 24 from our search. Thomas is 25 and turns 26 this summer. Kyrou just turned 27. There is no reason to exclude potential solutions just because they are the same age as Thomas and Kyrou. I think we can confidently add Broberg and Holloway to our 'core' and then we've got a nice group of young players still growing in the NHL. But that doesn't mean that every addition has to be 23/24 or younger, especially if we're talking about guys who may or may not ever be considered a 'core' piece.
Because we want players we can add to the core, and they won't fall of a cliff two years into their contract. If you want to open it up to players that are 27 and under, you can add 31 other players:
Michael Kesselring (UTA), Evan Bouchard (EDM), Johnathan Kovacevic (NJD), Cale Makar (COL), Ty Emberson (EDM), Brayden Pachal (CGY), Sam Malinski (COL), Andrew Peeke (BOS), Erik Cernak (TBL), Nick Perbix (TBL), Adam Fox (NYR), Timothy Liljegren (SJS), Conor Timmins (PIT), Dante Fabbro (CBJ), Filip Hronek (VAN), Henri Jokiharju (BOS), Nick Blankenburg (NSH), Charlie McAvoy (BOS), Daniil Miromanov (CGY), Nikolas Matinpalo (OTT), Jacob Bernard-Docker (BUF), Nils Lundkvist (DAL), Adam Boqvist (NYI), Sean Durzi (UTA), Jack St. Ivany (PIT), Ian Mitchell (BOS), Cale Fleury (SEA), Dylan Coghlan (WPG), Cameron Crotty (MIN), Nathan Clurman (PIT)
Of which you can probably immediately drop ~10 of them right away. Of those that are left, I don't see more than 3 guys that I would put into Schneider's league. They're not even necessarily better, but they're in a similar tier.
