2024-2025 Blues Trade Proposals Thread.

[ezcreepin]

To the first bolded, I agree that he mentioned picks and prospects, as well as stop gaps, in his response. However, I continue to assert his answer of “Not really” indicates his mindset leading up to this deadline. It’s evident that he spent a significant portion of his time this deadline fielding offers for Schenn. Therefore, it’s understandable that he was in the mindset of selling, which you oppose. If he dedicated so much time to Schenn, how much time did he have to work on hockey trades? Furthermore, if he sold Schenn, what other players does he sell? Easily Faska, Sutter, and Binny, but what about Buchnevich, Kyrou? Do you think he established the value and market for these pieces? How much time did he devote to selling compared to hockey trades, futures trades, and stop gaps? You can continue to take issue with my hockey trades statement, but there is more evidence he spent more time on other trades. Also my overall point in the original post was disappointment in his answers and that I considered the interview to be quite poor. I also mentioned that I wish he had invested the assets to acquire Dobson, Nemec, or Clarke. Doug Armstrong’s one weakness is that he rarely loses a trade. I wish he had overpayed for Dobson or Nemec, as that is the piece we really need in both the short and long term.

To your second bolded, I never advocated for any of that quite the opposite I was mad he didn’t add. Now to be fair, going off reporting that Armstrong was unhappy with the locker room and everyone was available prior to the four nations break, I speculated on a Scheen trade and asserted he had value to bring back Nemec to much derision. However, even in those post I said I thought it was a bad idea to trade Schenn. I also said that changes were needed at the time as it seemed like this team would miss the playoffs like 2011 and Army might clean house. Had we continued to play that way I would have been all for it. Since the break though I have been rooting for playoffs and really wish Armstrong had helped the team out after Colt went down.

I would disagree heavily that he was in the mindset of selling, otherwise we would've seen it. Not one player besides Schenn was rumored to be a possible trade chip, and to what extent that went is anyone's guess. All that was reported was per McKenzie and it was only in regard to the Leafs. I'll grant you that Army fielded offers, but did he fully exercise his no move or was it only for the Leafs? There's only one report, so I don't think we can read far into that. I think if he really wanted to sell, he could have easily sold on players like Texier, Joseph, Faksa, and Suter. Plenty of bottom of the barrel players were being traded for some decent draft assets, so why not do that if you're in the mindset of selling? If he wanted to add, which I can't say one way or another, what extent are you willing to go in that direction? What if the Canes were asking for Neighbours, Bolduc, Snuggerud, and a 2nd? Are you going to make that trade? What if he inquired about Dobson, Nemec, and Clarke but the ask was just as insane? What if, for any one of those players, the final ask was Neighbours, Snuggerud, and a 1st? If that trade even worth it at that point to clear out nearly a quarter of your top 9 for the near future? And as I said, even if those players were available, it's obvious that there was no team willing to pay the asking price for them, otherwise we would've seen a deal similar to the Norris/Cozens trade.

You absolutely advocated for him to sell. You believe that if you want to make the playoffs, then pay the prices for players like Dobson, Nemec, or Clarke, which btw only Dobson would provide immediate value for a team pushing for the playoffs. You also believe that if this team can't make the playoffs then they should sell. You believe he attempted to sell, which by definition means you would agree to selling players on the team. Now to be fair to you, I see that you were not in favor of Schenn being traded, so you personally are not advocating for that type of behavior, but you are advocating for GMs to either do it or don't, is that a fair statement?

Ultimately, I think we just have a difference in opinion about the press conference and what the goals and/or motivations a GM should have, which is fine. I personally am not willing to give up the cost for a player like Dobson, Nemec, or Clarke unless it's something akin to a top prospect not named Dvorsky and a pick. I would understand people telling me that's not fair value for those defenseman, but honestly I couldn't care less because we have a serviceable playoff d-corp currently and a lacking forward group. I think if that group of defensemen were forwards, then I might be more willing to give up quantity for one of them. Someone like Zetterlund I think I would've begrudgingly traded Kaskimaki and a 2nd to improve the wing position in the top 9 if that gives you some sort of clarity in my personal logic.

PS: Love you, all in good hockey debate fun

 

[Xerloris]

I wish I had a better understanding of the challenges in Bufallo.

A deadline passes. The Sabres do hockey trades flipping a center and defense slot.

Then the teams captain and highest paid player goes to gm with desire to be better.

I wonder if Dahlin had expectations for the roster and deadline. It’s a lot of good young players in key roles. I wonder what he thinks the fix is considering he’s also a young player in a key role. Should the team not build with the good young talent it has? Are others not putting in the work?


I wonder if a big islanders trade comes?

Horvat and Dobson for Dahlin and Krebs or something.

I wonder if Dahlin realizes a 24-26 yo perennial norris finalist d with tons of term will cost so much that wherever he goes probably will need to go through a build up phase just like he’s in now. Going to be hard for the Sabres to get a fair return but I still guess it would be absolutely massive.

I don't think the players talent is the reason they're terrible. No trade is going to help them.

 

[ezcreepin]

I wish I had a better understanding of the challenges in Bufallo.

A deadline passes. The Sabres do hockey trades flipping a center and defense slot.

Then the teams captain and highest paid player goes to gm with desire to be better.

I wonder if Dahlin had expectations for the roster and deadline. It’s a lot of good young players in key roles. I wonder what he thinks the fix is considering he’s also a young player in a key role. Should the team not build with the good young talent it has? Are others not putting in the work?


I wonder if a big islanders trade comes?

Horvat and Dobson for Dahlin and Krebs or something.

I wonder if Dahlin realizes a 24-26 yo perennial norris finalist d with tons of term will cost so much that wherever he goes probably will need to go through a build up phase just like he’s in now. Going to be hard for the Sabres to get a fair return but I still guess it would be absolutely massive.

Well, for a good long while, management was f***ing awful. Couple that with bad coaching, and you have a recipe for disaster for many years. Now that the Sabres are in a "better" place, they haven't necessarily had time to surround their young players with veteran talent that can help them progress; the young guys have had to pull the rope by themselves.

Really, if they would have just invested in a decent coach, surrounded their young players with decent veteran talent in 2015 they probably would have been just fine today. Instead, they sign O'Reilly which is a big win and then..... what else? Okposo? Kane? Ok so you have two good players, a good player with possible locker room issues, and then who else? Gionta? McGinn? Moulson? There's literally no one there to help these guys (btw ROR was 24 years old lmao what). Point is, Sabres had so much quality in terms of prospects and basically gave the keys to a 5 year old. What else did management expect out of a very young core?

TL;DR - Acquire quality prospects and young players and fail to surround them with veteran talent and good coaching.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I don't think the players talent is the reason they're terrible. No trade is going to help them.

Agreed. They will not be successful anytime soon and the reason is not the players.

 

[Spear]

So, does Buffalo can Lindy Ruff at the end of the year and target a younger coach like Steve Ott who now appears to be blocked by Monty?

 

[joe galiba]

So, does Buffalo can Lindy Ruff at the end of the year and target a younger coach like Steve Ott who now appears to be blocked by Monty?

they need to if they want to have any hope at all

 

[bleedblue1223]

Buffalo is just a prime example of how a burn it to the ground rebuild goes poorly. It's very difficult properly developing young players in a mess where there is no solid culture and a revolving door of vets.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Pegula purchased the Sabres in 2011. The Sabres have not qualified for the playoffs since 2011.

Coinkadink?

What deal does he have in place to keep the team as a feeder organization for the NHL?

Because, effectively, that’s all they are.

 

[Mike Liut]

Buffalo is just a prime example of how a burn it to the ground rebuild goes poorly. It's very difficult properly developing young players in a mess where there is no solid culture and a revolving door of vets.

Look who they’ve traded away too.

 

[StlBigFly]

Bufallo:

At the end of 2022-2023 the team changed systems.

I think they realized that the very run and gun approach was not a viable strategy for stable results.

So after that, the team is adjusting to the new playstyle and requirements during 2023-24. You’d guess a team manager would give guys a season to go through stuff. I don’t listen to all their press releases but I think I’m pretty comfortable with this part of their recent history. You can see this dramatic team strategy change plain as day in the rate metrics, production, and zone starts of various players, and it was also discussed briefly back then.

All this time many skaters want to leave, so the hockey trades and roster disruption are an annual thing.

When I see players the Sabres are choosing to separate with (anybody they trade who has lots of term) - they’ve had a year and a half to adjust, couldn’t…and that’s not like the end all be all - they’ve had some depth volatility too…it’s just

I have a feeling the Blues demand as much or more than what the Sabres currently do, so I’m not sure we want their initial cast aways, especially in top 6/4 roles. These guys are so young…we aren’t really saving much development time and we might be getting a project in a trade.

The cozens deal has so much upside for the senators tho. Is tempting.

I think the most Blues related thought is: I wonder if the Sabres have any interest in assets that are turnover prone. I’d guess no. Certain somebody on our team (Kyrou) who ends up in trade proposals for big Sabres hockey trades maybe not be the guy they’d be okay with receiving.

 

[Brian39]

Other teams would beat that quite easily as they want current NHL talent and 2 of those 3 pieces are not.

I think you are likely overestimating how many guys there are around the league who meet all 3 of the following criteria:

1: Kyrou's caliber (or better)
2: 4+ years of team control beyond this season
3: Don't have robust trade protection.

There aren't tons of guys that meet those 3 criteria I don't think Dahlin is actually trying to force his way out, but in a scenario where he is Buffalo absolutely can't trade him for a guy who can walk to UFA in 2-3 years. Since the start of the 2021/22 season Kyrou's 119 goals are 37th and his 265 points are 45th in the NHL. I'm going to go through the top 50 in each category and identify the guys who also meet all 3 criteria listed above. Bolded numbers indicate that they are top 50 in that stat:

Jack Hughes (123 goals and 299 points), Jordan Kyrou (119 goals and 265 points), Elias Pettersson (118 goals and 296 points), Brandon Hagel (111 goals and 254 points), Cole Caufield (109 goals and 202 points), Tim Stutzle (99 goals and 284 points), Nick Suzuki (100 goals and 271 points), and Robert Thomas (81 goals and 279 points). In summary, Kyrou is one of three guys who meet all the criteria and are top 50 in goals and points. He is one of just 8 guys who meet all the criteria above and are top 50 in at least one of the two categories.

I don't see the Devils being eager (and potentially at all willing) to move Jack Hughes for Dahlin. They invested serious draft capitol for L Hughes and Nemec, plus they have Casey in the pipeline. Dahlin is for sure an upgrade, but is he a big enough upgrade/addition to the future of the blueline to remove your stud 1C and decimate the short-and-long term outlook of the center group? J Hughes is their franchise player.

I don't see Ottawa being eager (and potentially at all willing) to move Stutzle for Dahlin for similar reasons. Dylan Cozens as the long-term #1C with nothing in the pipeline to supplement the center position is a pretty scary thought and they currently have Sanderson locked up as their #1 LHD. Stutzle is their franchise player.

Montreal may be more willing to include Suzuki than the Devils/Sens with their 1C, but I don't think they would be quickly doing that. Their prospect pool is very D heavy nad moving Suzuki would create (or worsen) a very real long-term issue at center. Like us, I think they would be extremely hesitant to include their 1C and would instead be trying to get the deal done with Caufield. I see arguments in favor of Caufield over Kyrou and for Kyrou over Caufield, but I think they are largely comparable players. The other assets in the deal would make or break which offer is "better" and Buffalo would likely consider that a deal with Montreal would put Dahlin in their division for the next 7 years.

Vancouver could be a damn good trade fit with Petey. There are alarm bells ringing about Petey, but Buffalo makes a ton of sense as a destination to try and get him back to who he was. But his contract looks scary as hell at the moment and I'm not 100% sold that a package around him would inherently be more valuable than one centered around Kyrou. There is more upside for Buffalo, but there is also a good chunk of extra risk. Would Vancouver be willing to add significantly and if not is Petey that much more valuable than Kyrou to offset the lack of other assets?

I'm sure Tampa would part with Hagel to get Dahlin, but I'm not sure what else they would include. They don't have a 1st until 2028 and the prospect pool has gotten fairly thin. Hagel for Dahlin from the NHL roster would leave them with about $4.5M in cap space to fill 7 roster spots next year, but is doable if they are content chipping away at the depth. It's a deal that makes sense for them, but I'm not sold that Hagel is a clearly better piece than Kyrou, I don't think they have the assets to match the other pieces we'd be offering, and it is another deal where Buffalo would be moving Dahlin in-division. I don't think I'd describe Tampa as being able to quite easily beat the proposed offer.

And that's it. I don't see clear paths for teams to quite easily beat the proposed offer. Obviously they could be targeting younger and less proven players or they could be targeting D that didn't make the scoring list. There is certainly no guarantee that Kyrou, a 1st, and Lindstein would be the best package offer. But I also don't think that they would be getting a glut of offers with better players coming their way. Some teams might offer packages with two NHL players, but I think that those are going to be lesser players than Kyrou. The fact that the Sabres are one of the worst destinations in the league and have massive issues retaining talent drastically narrows the list of guys that they can target in a blockbuster trade. Because moving Dahlin for a guy who can walk in 2-3 years should be a fireable offense no matter how much patience the owner has with the current front office.

 

[joe galiba]

Bufallo:

At the end of 2022-2023 the team changed systems.

I think they realized that the very run and gun approach was not a viable strategy for stable results.

So after that, the team is adjusting to the new playstyle and requirements during 2023-24. You’d guess a team manager would give guys a season to go through stuff. I don’t listen to all their press releases but I think I’m pretty comfortable with this part of their recent history. You can see this dramatic team strategy change plain as day in the rate metrics, production, and zone starts of various players, and it was also discussed briefly back then.

All this time many skaters want to leave, so the hockey trades and roster disruption are an annual thing.

When I see players the Sabres are choosing to separate with (anybody they trade who has lots of term) - they’ve had a year and a half to adjust, couldn’t…and that’s not like the end all be all - they’ve had some depth volatility too…it’s just

I have a feeling the Blues demand as much or more than what the Sabres currently do, so I’m not sure we want their initial cast aways, especially in top 6/4 roles. These guys are so young…we aren’t really saving much development time and we might be getting a project in a trade.

The cozens deal has so much upside for the senators tho. Is tempting.

I think the most Blues related thought is: I wonder if the Sabres have any interest in assets that are turnover prone. I’d guess no. Certain somebody on our team (Kyrou) who ends up in trade proposals for big Sabres hockey trades maybe not be the guy they’d be okay with receiving.

Kyrou is not turnover prone, he actually turns the puck over at a slightly less rate than other similar style players around the league

on the Blues alone, both Holloway (at .057 turnovers per minute played) and Thomas (.068) turn the puck over at a higher rate than Kyrou (.056)

some random skill players that turn the puck over at a higher rate:
MacKinnon (.066)
Scheifle (.062)
Drai (.058)
Kucherov (.075)
Hagel (.063)
Marner (.065)

 

[StlBigFly]

I think you are likely overestimating how many guys there are around the league who meet all 3 of the following criteria:

1: Kyrou's caliber (or better)
2: 4+ years of team control beyond this season
3: Don't have robust trade protection.

There aren't tons of guys that meet those 3 criteria I don't think Dahlin is actually trying to force his way out, but in a scenario where he is Buffalo absolutely can't trade him for a guy who can walk to UFA in 2-3 years. Since the start of the 2021/22 season Kyrou's 119 goals are 37th and his 265 points are 45th in the NHL. I'm going to go through the top 50 in each category and identify the guys who also meet all 3 criteria listed above. Bolded numbers indicate that they are top 50 in that stat:

Jack Hughes (123 goals and 299 points), Jordan Kyrou (119 goals and 265 points), Elias Pettersson (118 goals and 296 points), Brandon Hagel (111 goals and 254 points), Cole Caufield (109 goals and 202 points), Tim Stutzle (99 goals and 284 points), Nick Suzuki (100 goals and 271 points), and Robert Thomas (81 goals and 279 points). In summary, Kyrou is one of three guys who meet all the criteria and are top 50 in goals and points. He is one of just 8 guys who meet all the criteria above and are top 50 in at least one of the two categories.

I don't see the Devils being eager (and potentially at all willing) to move Jack Hughes for Dahlin. They invested serious draft capitol for L Hughes and Nemec, plus they have Casey in the pipeline. Dahlin is for sure an upgrade, but is he a big enough upgrade/addition to the future of the blueline to remove your stud 1C and decimate the short-and-long term outlook of the center group? J Hughes is their franchise player.

I don't see Ottawa being eager (and potentially at all willing) to move Stutzle for Dahlin for similar reasons. Dylan Cozens as the long-term #1C with nothing in the pipeline to supplement the center position is a pretty scary thought and they currently have Sanderson locked up as their #1 LHD. Stutzle is their franchise player.

Montreal may be more willing to include Suzuki than the Devils/Sens with their 1C, but I don't think they would be quickly doing that. Their prospect pool is very D heavy nad moving Suzuki would create (or worsen) a very real long-term issue at center. Like us, I think they would be extremely hesitant to include their 1C and would instead be trying to get the deal done with Caufield. I see arguments in favor of Caufield over Kyrou and for Kyrou over Caufield, but I think they are largely comparable players. The other assets in the deal would make or break which offer is "better" and Buffalo would likely consider that a deal with Montreal would put Dahlin in their division for the next 7 years.

Vancouver could be a damn good trade fit with Petey. There are alarm bells ringing about Petey, but Buffalo makes a ton of sense as a destination to try and get him back to who he was. But his contract looks scary as hell at the moment and I'm not 100% sold that a package around him would inherently be more valuable than one centered around Kyrou. There is more upside for Buffalo, but there is also a good chunk of extra risk. Would Vancouver be willing to add significantly and if not is Petey that much more valuable than Kyrou to offset the lack of other assets?

I'm sure Tampa would part with Hagel to get Dahlin, but I'm not sure what else they would include. They don't have a 1st until 2028 and the prospect pool has gotten fairly thin. Hagel for Dahlin from the NHL roster would leave them with about $4.5M in cap space to fill 7 roster spots next year, but is doable if they are content chipping away at the depth. It's a deal that makes sense for them, but I'm not sold that Hagel is a clearly better piece than Kyrou, I don't think they have the assets to match the other pieces we'd be offering, and it is another deal where Buffalo would be moving Dahlin in-division. I don't think I'd describe Tampa as being able to quite easily beat the proposed offer.

And that's it. I don't see clear paths for teams to quite easily beat the proposed offer. Obviously they could be targeting younger and less proven players or they could be targeting D that didn't make the scoring list. There is certainly no guarantee that Kyrou, a 1st, and Lindstein would be the best package offer. But I also don't think that they would be getting a glut of offers with better players coming their way. Some teams might offer packages with two NHL players, but I think that those are going to be lesser players than Kyrou. The fact that the Sabres are one of the worst destinations in the league and have massive issues retaining talent drastically narrows the list of guys that they can target in a blockbuster trade. Because moving Dahlin for a guy who can walk in 2-3 years should be a fireable offense no matter how much patience the owner has with the current front office.

Interesting situation.

I’d bet Utah would be allll over this. They’d probably be the front runner from the standpoint of ability to be creative and fit Sabre needs, although they do not have a fit as clear cut as you’ve shown. Theyd have to step up a bit more in age or accept multiple assets. They have controlled guys. No worries about waiving in many cases. They also structured their initial defense around Sergachev to have a strong left side.

My front runner for a Dahlin deal is Clayton Keller, but it also could be any number of the Utahns.

I wonder if the Utahns would have some more motivation than groups like ours. We’ve had a strong right side for a long time, but we also could pivot with Broberg. The Utahns may have desires to be impactful, the have the cap setup to be, to lay a big first building block, and willing to pay a bit for the opportunity. I think there is a lot of anticipation for their offseason.

That being said, Dahlin doesn’t seem available anytime soon? And the Utahns may be active in other ways - maybe they are in a different place if Dahlin hits the market in the future. Maybe theyll have already made some big moves and not positioned to also entertain Dahlin.

 

[ds774622]

Eichel said the same thing and so did ROR and did any more infinate amount of players when asked this kind of question.

Spot on. And what is Dahlin supposed to do? Say, yeah that report is true, and then we get the shit show that VAN went through? The default is to deny and BUF, Dahlin, and his agent are probably pissed that this got out there.

I 100% believe Biz that Dahlin talked to Adams and said that if the team doesn't improve next year then he wants to go somewhere to win.

 

[Brian39]

Interesting situation.

I’d bet Utah would be allll over this. They’d probably be the front runner from the standpoint of ability to be creative and fit needs.

My front runner for a Dahlin deal is Clayton Keller, but it also could be any number of the Utahns.

I wonder if they would have some more motivation than groups like ours. They may have desires to be impactful and willing to pay a bit for the opportunity.

Clayton Keller has a full no trade clause and Utah's income tax is about half of New York's for his tax bracket. Things aren't perfect in Utah, but they have a much better looking on-ice future than the Sabres and new ownership has bent over backwards to provide the 'best of the best' for the players. I would be absolutely stunned if Keller waived his NTC to go to Buffalo. Schmaltz has a 10 team no-trade list that almost certainly includes Buffalo and is a UFA in the summer of 2026. Sergachev holds a full NTC.

I think they'd have to be dealing out of their very young NHL guys whose value is still primarily potential. Cooley and Guenther would be the 2 most obvious targets IMO. Both of them have gotten off to great starts, but have an overall game that isn't close to well rounded. Plenty of time for them to round out that game and plenty of reasons to believe that they will. But I do view both of them as closer to prospects than established top line NHL players. Like you I also wonder how motivated Utah would be to move one (or both) of these guys for a stud to accelerate things.

 

[StlBigFly]

Clayton Keller has a full no trade clause and Utah's income tax is about half of New York's for his tax bracket. Things aren't perfect in Utah, but they have a much better looking on-ice future than the Sabres and new ownership has bent over backwards to provide the 'best of the best' for the players. I would be absolutely stunned if Keller waived his NTC to go to Buffalo. Schmaltz has a 10 team no-trade list that almost certainly includes Buffalo and is a UFA in the summer of 2026. Sergachev holds a full NTC.

I think they'd have to be dealing out of their very young NHL guys whose value is still primarily potential. Cooley and Guenther would be the 2 most obvious targets IMO. Both of them have gotten off to great starts, but have an overall game that isn't close to well rounded. Plenty of time for them to round out that game and plenty of reasons to believe that they will. But I do view both of them as closer to prospects than established top line NHL players. Like you I also wonder how motivated Utah would be to move one (or both) of these guys for a stud to accelerate things

I thought Kellers kicked in next year. He’s not 27 yet.

Hadn’t realized he had a full age 19 season. That’s cool for him. Free agent eligible a year early = move protection eligible a year early.

Yep, throw the Keller idea out the window.

 

[SirPaste]

Pegula purchased the Sabres in 2011. The Sabres have not qualified for the playoffs since 2011.

Coinkadink?

What deal does he have in place to keep the team as a feeder organization for the NHL?

Because, effectively, that’s all they are.

He just doesn't care, all he cares about is the Bills, Sabres are an afterthought

 

[ChicagoBlues]

He just doesn't care, all he cares about is the Bills, Sabres are an afterthought

Maybe

 

[SirPaste]

Maybe

That seems to be the consensus among Sabres fans anyway

 

[ChicagoBlues]

That seems to be the consensus among Sabres fans anyway

It’s just a perception agreement among the masses and, usually, the masses are brain dead.

 

[StlBigFly]

Kyrou is not turnover prone, he actually turns the puck over at a slightly less rate than other similar style players around the league

on the Blues alone, both Holloway (at .057 turnovers per minute played) and Thomas (.068) turn the puck over at a higher rate than Kyrou (.056)

some random skill players that turn the puck over at a higher rate:
MacKinnon (.066)
Scheifle (.062)
Drai (.058)
Kucherov (.075)
Hagel (.063)
Marner (.065)

I would maybe adjust my sentence so the location/timing of turnovers was a part of it too.

I think in general; our hesitation to use Kyrou in the final minute(s) of close games would be the indicator they see. If their focus is to adjust away from that kind of situation: it’s 1-1 with a minute left in the game: maybe they want a guy who they can’t wait to throw out there - who is a good fit for those moments - which is kind of the shift from cozens imo…shifting toward a 2-way game, then we better start giving Kyrou those minutes and having him make great choices during them. Sometimes teams mandate certain change - and trading guys with 7 years of term is the kinda deal that feels like it comes from a mandate.

If they were willing to pay a second to trade a younger, higher pedigree and ceiling, more term, bigger, better single season production by about 10 points, healthy player for a guy who’s the opposite of those things and also has had numerous Ltir experiences…., a lot of accrued missed games, theyre shopping with a purpose I feel.



That being said you’ve brought up the good point that it’s not like it’s a gigantic problem.