2024-2025 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread. | Page 156 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

2024-2025 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread.

Selke Votes released today and three Blues are on the list. Thomas at 21, Holloway tied for 26, and Jordan Kyrou tied for 37th with one 5th place vote. Had to do a double take when I saw that. He improved his defensive game a lot this year so I would guess it's a St. Louis media guy throwing him a bone with a 5th place vote.

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How long until people start using the fact that Kyrou got Selke votes in the never ending arguments on here? Love to see it.
 
Selke Votes released today and three Blues are on the list. Thomas at 21, Holloway tied for 26, and Jordan Kyrou tied for 37th with one 5th place vote. Had to do a double take when I saw that. He improved his defensive game a lot this year so I would guess it's a St. Louis media guy throwing him a bone with a 5th place vote.

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That must be some extreme homerism going on there lol. I don't see ROR getting any votes at all despite being a very solid defensive player. Kyrou has improved sure, but he can't PK and never sees the ice when we're up by one late in games. You'd think a Selke vote getter would be able to do one or both of those things. Heck, Sunny and Faksa are more deserving of votes compared to Kyrou or Holloway for that matter.
 
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Demitra finished 6th in Selke voting in 2000. Love Pavs but he wasn’t a good defensive player. At least not 6th best out of 7-800 guys level of good. Sometimes the media is stupid.

Kyrou has gotten much better defensively and I commend him for working on his biggest weakness. But I don’t ever think it’s going to be a strength to where he’s one of the better defensive forwards in the game.
 
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My headcannon for this is that there's some reporter/voter that loathes JR and gave Kyrou a pity 5th place Selke vote in order for JR to have to deal with the legion of braindead fans who anytime JR criticizes Kyrou will come out of the woodwork with the YEA BUT HE GOT A SELKE VOTE HURRR DURR.
 
Selke Votes released today and three Blues are on the list. Thomas at 21, Holloway tied for 26, and Jordan Kyrou tied for 37th with one 5th place vote. Had to do a double take when I saw that. He improved his defensive game a lot this year so I would guess it's a St. Louis media guy throwing him a bone with a 5th place vote.

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Ummmm.... what? I can see Thomas and Holloway, even if Buch was there. But Kyrou? He's gotten much much better but a Selke Candidate he is not.
 
It's why finishing outside of 8-12 in any award is pretty much meaningless. Once you get past the guys that could be reasonably considered in the top 5 in that category, you start getting some weird results.

In 17/18, the Blues had 1 forward receive a 5th place Selke vote. It wasn't Schwartz or Steen, it wasn't a defensive forward like Brodziak, it was Tarasenko.
 
A writer wanted to use their 5th place vote to recognize the strides he took to improve his defensive game and/or wanted to needle the annoyingly vocal members of the crowd at Blues games who continue to complain about Kyrou every night.

Personally, I got a good laugh out of it. +/- isn't a good stat, but praising his defense after he led the team in +/- is an appropriate sarcastic response to all the people who relentlessly hounded him for the brutal +/- in 2022/23. Clearly he went from the team's worst defensive player that year to the team's best defensive player this year. :popcorn:
 
Sir, a Kyrou got a Selke vote has hit the Forums

I hope Dizee understands now why he will never be traded.
A writer wanted to use their 5th place vote to recognize the strides he took to improve his defensive game and/or wanted to needle the annoyingly vocal members of the crowd at Blues games who continue to complain about Kyrou every night.

Personally, I got a good laugh out of it. +/- isn't a good stat, but praising his defense after he led the team in +/- is an appropriate sarcastic response to all the people who relentlessly hounded him for the brutal +/- in 2022/23. Clearly he went from the team's worst defensive player that year to the team's best defensive player this year. :popcorn:

This just goes to show all the people that pull that Pejorative Slured well Pietrangelo got Norris votes bullshit that unless you win, the votes don't mean shit.
 
I hope Dizee understands now why he will never be traded.


This just goes to show all the people that pull that Pejorative Slured well Pietrangelo got Norris votes bullshit that unless you win, the votes don't mean shit.
His 3 top 5 finishes and 4 top 10 finishes did matter, similar to how Backes had 4 top 5 finishes in Selke voting. When a bulk of the voters believe you are in the top 5, you likely are someone in the top 5. If you get 1 5th place vote, it doesn't matter.
 
His 3 top 5 finishes and 4 top 10 finishes did matter, similar to how Backes had 4 top 5 finishes in Selke voting. When a bulk of the voters believe you are in the top 5, you likely are someone in the top 5. If you get 1 5th place vote, it doesn't matter.

BULK
be or seem to be of great size or importance.


2012 - 381 votes for 25.6% out of a possible 1490 - not the bulk as you claim
2014 - 304 votes for 22.2% out of a possible 1370 - not the bulk as you claim
2020 - 527 votes for 31% out of a possible 1700 - not the bulk as you claim

Considering these are his top 3 finishes and they did not give him the bulk of the votes like you claim I see no need to post about his top 10 finishes since they clearly will not contain the bulk of votes either.
 
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BULK
be or seem to be of great size or importance.


2012 - 381 votes for 25.6% out of a possible 1490 - not the bulk as you claim
2014 - 304 votes for 22.2% out of a possible 1370 - not the bulk as you claim
2020 - 527 votes for 31% out of a possible 1700 - not the bulk as you claim

Considering these are his top 3 finishes and they did not give him the bulk of the votes like you claim I see no need to post about his top 10 finishes since they clearly will not contain the bulk of votes either.
Those are points, not individual votes. in 19/20, I believe there were 170 ballots, he was top 5 on 160 of them. The bulk of voters viewed him as being top 5 that year.
 
A writer wanted to use their 5th place vote to recognize the strides he took to improve his defensive game and/or wanted to needle the annoyingly vocal members of the crowd at Blues games who continue to complain about Kyrou every night.

Personally, I got a good laugh out of it. +/- isn't a good stat, but praising his defense after he led the team in +/- is an appropriate sarcastic response to all the people who relentlessly hounded him for the brutal +/- in 2022/23. Clearly he went from the team's worst defensive player that year to the team's best defensive player this year. :popcorn:
I think +/- is a good stat and i dogged him for his horrendous lack of defensive accountability that year. Gotta give him credit where credit is due. He put in the work (and care) to be a better all around player. Kudos to Kyrou. Should that be a new slogan or catchphrase? lol. Don't know but good for him. His little nut sack dropped this year and he grew up a little.
 
I think the biggest problems with +/- are in the room with us right now, but it’s not a bad stat.

I like how we presently use Kyrou, and hope it can expand just a little more.

The best way I can put it…

If Kyrou is put out constantly when the defense pair is weak, and we let him play with risk, his 15-17 min of ice per game lets him have a lot of energy per shift - turn a lot of chances into goals. This is what we did last year. Went super well. I’m down to do it again.

He’s earning the pluses of the plus minus the right way, but we aren’t dummies, we do this often when the retaliation will be limited/parts of the rotation that appear advantageous.

Unfortunately,

When the game is close and we need a winger on the ice: we pick literally anybody else.

Kyrou isn’t exposed to the minuses the way a 200 foot player would be. He’s on the bench if the other team is down by 1 with 6 min to go in the 3rd. We almost never pk with him. We almost never use him to stop a push. It’s fine that Kyrou’s role is offense but plus minus thinks everybody is the same.

Until that changes he’s not a selke candidate and the writer who did so, high five bro (jr?), I do disagree with but like the vote, would have done the same. Kyrou turned a huge corner. If kyrou has one more small step in his game it will get him on the ice more in some tougher minutes;

I do personally prefer keeping the speedy flankers rested so when they’re out they can be explosive - so I don’t want Kyrou’s game to go to full 200ft where he’s just demanded on the ice anytime he’s somewhat rested - the Penguins did this with Guentzel and it was horrible usage; he couldn’t be explosive while they were pushing him 20 minutes a game, and he’s still a scrawny winger so it’s not like you were going to get some defensive behemoth out of him. I’m okay if Kyrou’s not a selke candidate tbh. I like where his game is, more or less - he’s got a good stick and he’s fast af. I’d like him to get into the end of close game rotation. The more guys available for that the more rest they all get between usage.

Tl:dr I prefer explosive fast Kyrou over Selke Kyrou, but if there’s just a little more to come from him, he’s going to make us a much stronger team to close out games.
 
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If Kyrou is put out constantly when the defense pair is weak
Do you have a site that breaks down quality of competition just in regards to the opposition's D pairs? I'm not aware of any, but the info I can find shows that Kyrou faced the 4th most difficult quality of competition among all Blues forwards this year (but again, this includes opposition D and forwards). I find quality of competition data to be pretty hard to find without spending money.

When the game is close and we need a winger on the ice: we pick literally anybody else. Kyrou isn’t exposed to the minuses the way a 200 foot player would be. He’s on the bench if the other team is down by 1 with 6 min to go in the 3rd. We almost never pk with him. We almost never use him to stop a push. It’s fine that Kyrou’s role is offense but plus minus thinks everybody is the same.
Kyrou played the 2nd most 5 on 5 minutes among Blues forwards when the Blues had a 1 goal lead. He also played the 2nd most 5 on 5 minutes when we were leading by any margin and the most 5 on 5 minutes when the game is tied. I don't agree with your claim that we're picking literally anyone but Kyrou when the game is close.

I also don't agree with your claim about offensive players not being exposed to minuses.

You don't get a minus if you're on the PK when the other team scores a PP goal against you. You do however get a plus when you are on the ice when your team scores a shorthanded goal. So being on the PK offers no minus exposure, but it does offer the opportunity to improve your +/-. You can be on the ice for 1000 goals against and 1 goal for while killing penalties and you would be a +1.

Conversely, you don't get a plus for being on the ice for a PP goal, but yo do get a minus if the other team scores a shorty. Kyrou went -3 on the PP (25 goals for, 3 against).

Everyone on the ice still gets a plus or minus for empty net goals. League wide, way more goals are scored against an empty net than the team who pulled the goalie scores. Being part of the 6 man group trying to tie a game is a much greater opportunity to pick up minuses than being part of a 5 man group trying to hold the lead. Kyrou went -5 when we had the goalie pulled and was even in the 3 minutes he was on the ice while the other team had their goalie pulled.

There is tons of exposure to minuses offensive guys face that defensive guys don't.
 
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Do you have a site that breaks down quality of competition just in regards to the opposition's D pairs? I'm not aware of any, but the info I can find shows that Kyrou faced the 4th most difficult quality of competition among all Blues forwards this year (but again, this includes opposition D and forwards). I find quality of competition data to be pretty hard to find without spending money.


Kyrou played the 2nd most 5 on 5 minutes among Blues forwards when the Blues had a 1 goal lead. He also played the 2nd most 5 on 5 minutes when we were leading by any margin and the most 5 on 5 minutes when the game is tied. I don't agree with your claim that we're picking literally anyone but Kyrou when the game is close.

I also don't agree with your claim about offensive players not being exposed to minuses.

You don't get a minus if you're on the PK when the other team scores a PP goal against you. You do however get a plus when you are on the ice when your team scores a shorthanded goal. So being on the PK offers no minus exposure, but it does offer the opportunity to improve your +/-. You can be on the ice for 1000 goals against and 1 goal for while killing penalties and you would be a +1.

Conversely, you don't get a plus for being on the ice for a PP goal, but yo do get a minus if the other team scores a shorty. Kyrou went -3 on the PP (25 goals for, 3 against).

Everyone on the ice still gets a plus or minus for empty net goals. League wide, way more goals are scored against an empty net than the team who pulled the goalie scores. Being part of the 6 man group trying to tie a game is a much greater opportunity to pick up minuses than being part of a 5 man group trying to hold the lead. Kyrou went -5 when we had the goalie pulled and was even in the 3 minutes he was on the ice while the other team had their goalie pulled.

There is tons of exposure to minuses offensive guys face that defensive guys don't.

You're very good at carefully selecting stats that help prove your point. That's great that Kyrou played the second most minutes when we're up at 5 on 5, but have you ever seen him on the ice on the last 2-3 minutes when we're protecting a one goal lead? Absolutely not. He'd be one of the last forwards the coach would put out there in that situation. That's ok, his job isn't to play defense.

Plus minus doesn't really matter that much but at least he's back in the plus column after the last two years at a combined -50. There are so many variables involved to really use it to make any major conclusions about a player. Faulk led the team with a +41 a couple years ago and I don't recall many people giving a crap at the time or after the fact.
 
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Do you have a site that breaks down quality of competition just in regards to the opposition's D pairs? I'm not aware of any, but the info I can find shows that Kyrou faced the 4th most difficult quality of competition among all Blues forwards this year (but again, this includes opposition D and forwards). I find quality of competition data to be pretty hard to find without spending money.


Kyrou played the 2nd most 5 on 5 minutes among Blues forwards when the Blues had a 1 goal lead. He also played the 2nd most 5 on 5 minutes when we were leading by any margin and the most 5 on 5 minutes when the game is tied. I don't agree with your claim that we're picking literally anyone but Kyrou when the game is close.

I also don't agree with your claim about offensive players not being exposed to minuses.

You don't get a minus if you're on the PK when the other team scores a PP goal against you. You do however get a plus when you are on the ice when your team scores a shorthanded goal. So being on the PK offers no minus exposure, but it does offer the opportunity to improve your +/-. You can be on the ice for 1000 goals against and 1 goal for while killing penalties and you would be a +1.

Conversely, you don't get a plus for being on the ice for a PP goal, but yo do get a minus if the other team scores a shorty. Kyrou went -3 on the PP (25 goals for, 3 against).

Everyone on the ice still gets a plus or minus for empty net goals. League wide, way more goals are scored against an empty net than the team who pulled the goalie scores. Being part of the 6 man group trying to tie a game is a much greater opportunity to pick up minuses than being part of a 5 man group trying to hold the lead. Kyrou went -5 when we had the goalie pulled and was even in the 3 minutes he was on the ice while the other team had their goalie pulled.

There is tons of exposure to minuses offensive guys face that defensive guys don't.

I had processed this and just had some confusion.

Granted it’d anecdotal; but I’ve watched every game this season and enjoy the various ways we deploy our group.

After reading your reply I doubted the entire season I watched.

I went to grab just one random close game to see: (literally the first one I picked due to 1 goal win from middle of season against competitive peer).


Kyrou is off the ice the last 5 min of the game, as expected, short handed icetime is 0, as expected. It appears Calgary couldn’t decide what to do with their bottom group but we still kept Kyrou away from Weeger most of the game.

If I go find Quinn Hughes, cale makar, etc games and check out Kyrou’s usage, anytime we can, we start Kyrou after their shift - like as they’re going off he’s going on.

If the other team has really scary guys like Quinn Hughes, or Weeger - that means we cannot play with risk, or they’ll transition and score. This isn’t Kyrou specific, this is just how it is. It’s a super long season and not everything is black and white, but we, and most teams I’ve watched try to deploy similar talents similar ways. We gameplan for their offensive threats and we’re using other folks and or direct play to handle them. We’re trying to use our higher risk guys when we can handle the pushback of failure. Hockey is a game of mistakes.

I feel it’s really easy to see what everybody wants by looking at what teams do at home versus away, what teams do when they need a goal and need a save. They’re showing you their preference. You can see where teams are placing bets and where teams are scared of exposure, or when teams are rolling. I look at this every game. It’s essentially my seasons narrative. In my view Kyrou was deployed with a heavy offensive bias - couple early mishaps didn’t help of course. But I liked his season a lot.

I’ll see if I can develop a tool to help. It’s silly we cannot see the difference in home and away deployment in a simple graphic - especially when last change is a bit of a lump in an otherwise even playing field. Or icetime versus a specific opponent - I got a real big challenge at work right now but that won’t be all offseason. I feel it would quite clearly show you when a forward’s usage was biased towards specific outcomes. I think the dialog on this issue touches a core of why I like the sport and team building - would be something worth building when I can get some free time.
 
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You're very good at carefully selecting stats that help prove your point. That's great that Kyrou played the second most minutes when we're up at 5 on 5, but have you ever seen him on the ice on the last 2-3 minutes when we're protecting a one goal lead? Absolutely not. He'd be one of the last forwards the coach would put out there in that situation. That's ok, his job isn't to play defense.

Plus minus doesn't really matter that much but at least he's back in the plus column after the last two years at a combined -50. There are so many variables involved to really use it to make any major conclusions about a player. Faulk led the team with a +41 a couple years ago and I don't recall many people giving a crap at the time or after the fact.
i see it as staking a position and supporting your position. Right or wrong, incorrect or not, it’s fun and just an exercise.
 
Do you have a site that breaks down quality of competition just in regards to the opposition's D pairs? I'm not aware of any, but the info I can find shows that Kyrou faced the 4th most difficult quality of competition among all Blues forwards this year (but again, this includes opposition D and forwards). I find quality of competition data to be pretty hard to find without spending money.


Kyrou played the 2nd most 5 on 5 minutes among Blues forwards when the Blues had a 1 goal lead. He also played the 2nd most 5 on 5 minutes when we were leading by any margin and the most 5 on 5 minutes when the game is tied. I don't agree with your claim that we're picking literally anyone but Kyrou when the game is close.

I also don't agree with your claim about offensive players not being exposed to minuses.

You don't get a minus if you're on the PK when the other team scores a PP goal against you. You do however get a plus when you are on the ice when your team scores a shorthanded goal. So being on the PK offers no minus exposure, but it does offer the opportunity to improve your +/-. You can be on the ice for 1000 goals against and 1 goal for while killing penalties and you would be a +1.

Conversely, you don't get a plus for being on the ice for a PP goal, but yo do get a minus if the other team scores a shorty. Kyrou went -3 on the PP (25 goals for, 3 against).

Everyone on the ice still gets a plus or minus for empty net goals. League wide, way more goals are scored against an empty net than the team who pulled the goalie scores. Being part of the 6 man group trying to tie a game is a much greater opportunity to pick up minuses than being part of a 5 man group trying to hold the lead. Kyrou went -5 when we had the goalie pulled and was even in the 3 minutes he was on the ice while the other team had their goalie pulled.

There is tons of exposure to minuses offensive guys face that defensive guys don't.
Just curious what your data source is for that.
 

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