2023 World Championships - All Divisions

[aquaregia]

When it comes to World Championships in any sports though, it's better to err on the side of being generous and giving top-level exposure to as many countries' teams as possible, because as well as being the tournament that decides (at least in theory, in questionable in practice in ice hockey's case) who the best team in the world are, it's also an important channel for growing the game.

If we take the argument for only letting in teams that have a realistic shot at winning to its logical conclusion, then we're probably left with 5 or 6 teams each year at absolute most, but that would provide for a very stale competition that would lose the attention of a lot of fans who aren't from any of the core countries.

Of course you don't want things to drag on for too long or have too many one-sided games, there has to be a limit, but part of the allure of sport is the potential for upsets: if other sports took your same level of harshness of reasoning, we might never have had such moments as Senegal turning over the world Champions France in the 2002 FIFA World Cup, or Japan's Miracle of Brighton against South Africa in the rugby in 2015.

The impossible only stays impossible if no-one is given the opportunity to try.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Anyway, I'm not even sure what we are discussing anymore. Even if we pretend you are right for a second, saying the gap between Italy and Latvia is the same as between Latvia and Canada... Why should that grant Italy a spot in the top division? You gotta draw the line somewhere. Otherwise, we might as well invite the next tier of nations too. Lithuania and Romania could maybe earn a point from Italy once or twice in every ten meetings, so why not?

That's exactly right but therefore the onus is on you to convince us why the line drawn at 16 teams is wrong as opposed to a certain other number.

There are ~20 countries with reasonable professional leagues in the world. Players from 18 nations played in the NHL this year. WJC is 10 teams but we have seen 15 different nations play there over the last decade. So it's hard to see why the cut-off point at 16 is so wrong compared to some other number.

 

[Elvs]

I did some research of the last ten years since I was curious myself... Looking at how Denmark and Latvia has done against the "big 6" in that time span (World Championships and Olympics).

Denmark has won over Czechia three times, and have also beaten Canada, Sweden and Finland one time each. In addition, they've earned a point against Czechia on two more occasions.

Latvia has won over Canada once and USA once. They've also earned a point against Finland twice, against Sweden once, and against Canada and USA one time each.

And because France, Austria and Kazakstan are all ranked within the top 14 (not counting Russia and Belarus), I've looked at results between Denmark/Latvia and Italy in the last ten years (World Championships and Olympic qualification).

Italy has lost in three games against Denmark out of three, with a total scoring differential of 2-8. They've also lost in four games against Latvia out of four, with a total scoring differential of 1-14.

As for Great Britain, while it's true they beat Denmark in overtime last year, and nearly pushed Latvia to overtime this year, they also lost against Denmark 0-9 in 2019 and against Latvia 2-6 in 2014 Olympic qualifiers. Meanwhile, in 2018 and 2022, Great Britain didn't make it to the final qualification round, as they had Italy and Hungary ahead of them.

While there's not much data of Great Britain going up against Denmark and Latvia over the last ten years, they are ranked below Italy, so there's that...

 

[Elvs]

That's exactly right but therefore the onus is on you to convince us why the line drawn at 16 teams is wrong as opposed to a certain other number.

There are ~20 countries with reasonable professional leagues in the world. Players from 18 nations played in the NHL this year. WJC is 10 teams but we have seen 15 different nations play there over the last decade. So it's hard to see why the cut-off point at 16 is so wrong compared to some other number.

I mean, even IIHF:s normal cut off suggests this year had too many weak nations, because the format is typically designed to include Russia and Belarus.

When the day comes when they can return, I'm more open to the idea of a 16 team tournament. But still, I would prefer the four group format. It's been done before so I don't see why the idea is so out of the world. It also makes the relegation round more exciting.

I'm all for growing the game in more countries, but I don't think the current format really does that. I'm sure for people in Great Britain it was cool to see their country in the top division, but after a while, it's gonna lose it's charm. How many people in Italy cares about watching their team lose nearly every single game, and being completely dominated?

The bottom line is players and fans of the bigger hockey nations are losing interest more and more. The IIHF really should start looking to make a few changes, to increase the excitement level.

 

[aquaregia]

...

The bottom line is players and fans of the bigger hockey nations are losing interest more and more. The IIHF really should start looking to make a few changes, to increase the excitement level.

I mean I'd argue that if that is the case, it's far more due to the fact that the traditional major powers show up without the majority of their star players, and unless you want to host the tournaments in July (l0l) that will always be the case, the way the NHL's schedule is currently structured.

I realise that I don't exactly represent the archetypal ice hockey fan, but for me, the lower-middle tier nations getting a chance to compete at the top table makes these tournaments much more interesting to follow with the subplots that they bring, whether it's Italy or GB or Hungary or Slovenia, and it's be a shame if the IIHF short-sightedly cut the number of participants down and took part of that added drama away.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

I mean I'd argue that if that is the case, it's far more due to the fact that the traditional major powers show up without the majority of their star players, and unless you want to host the tournaments in July (l0l) that will always be the case, the way the NHL's schedule is currently structured.

I realise that I don't exactly represent the archetypal ice hockey fan, but for me, the lower-middle tier nations getting a chance to compete at the top table makes these tournaments much more interesting to follow with the subplots that they bring, whether it's Italy or GB or Hungary or Slovenia, and it's be a shame if the IIHF short-sightedly cut the number of participants down and took part of that added drama away.

Hadn't thought of that before, frankly, but it's probably a good thing for the development of hockey in relatively minor nations, e.g. GB, that many of the best nations best players are unavailable or uninterested.

Can't imagine the locals in Newcastle or Budapest seeing their lads getting thrashed by a fully-stocked Canada or USA team would do much to promote interest in the sport.

 

[ES]

The old format which @Elvs mentioned was ditched due to bigger number of games being unknown at the time of tickets were sold. So basically you had to buy tickets for games A1-D3, A2-D1 and A3-D2 without knowing in which game Finland would play. Perhaps it's possible to anticipate but a shock loss early can change things.

I'm not sure if there are packages for fans who follow all games of certain country, in which case after first groups Finnish fans would be awarded tickets to A1-D3, D2-A1 and A1-D1, if Finland wins the group.

 

[NCRanger]

IIHF is going back to 6 teams in the lower divisions. It seems like the divisions for next year are:

Elite:
Austria
Canada
Czechia
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Kazakhstan
Latvia
Norway
Slovenia
Slovakia
Sweden
Switzerland
United States

Russia and Belarus still suspended.

Division IA:
Great Britain (host)
Italy
Korea
Lithuania
Poland
Romania

Division IB:
China
Estonia (host)
Japan
Netherlands
Serbia
Ukraine

Division IIA:
Australia
Croatia
Georgia
Iceland
Israel
Spain (host)

Division IIB:
Belgium
Bulgaria
Mexico
New Zealand
Turkey (host)
UAE

The IIHF stated that the Division III and IV participants and hosts will be confirmed later, but it will likely look something like this:

Division IIIA:
Chinese Taipei
Korea DPR
Luxembourg
South Africa (host)
Thailand
Turkmenistan

Division IIIB:
Bosnia-Herzegovina (host)
Hong Kong
Iran
Kyrgyzstan
Malaysia
Singapore

Division IV:
Kuwait (host)
Philippines

I wouldn't be surprised if the bottom two of Division IIIB gets put into Division IV and we end up with two groups of 4 at the bottom. Alternatively, there will be newcomers to the program, but I don't think that will happen this coming year.

Did South Korea disband the program?

 

[AKQJ]

Did South Korea disband the program?

They are in IA (named Korea). DPR Korea in IIIA.

 

[NCRanger]

They are in IA (named Korea). DPR Korea in IIIA.

My bad. Looking for South in front.

 

[TomB]

IIHF is going back to 6 teams in the lower divisions. It seems like the divisions for next year are:

Elite:
Austria
Canada
Czechia
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Kazakhstan
Latvia
Norway
Slovenia
Slovakia
Sweden
Switzerland
United States

Russia and Belarus still suspended.

Division IA:
Great Britain (host)
Italy
Korea
Lithuania
Poland
Romania

Division IB:
China
Estonia (host)
Japan
Netherlands
Serbia
Ukraine

Division IIA:
Australia
Croatia
Georgia
Iceland
Israel
Spain (host)

Division IIB:
Belgium
Bulgaria
Mexico
New Zealand
Turkey (host)
UAE

The IIHF stated that the Division III and IV participants and hosts will be confirmed later, but it will likely look something like this:

Division IIIA:
Chinese Taipei
Korea DPR
Luxembourg
South Africa (host)
Thailand
Turkmenistan

Division IIIB:
Bosnia-Herzegovina (host)
Hong Kong
Iran
Kyrgyzstan
Malaysia
Singapore

Division IV:
Kuwait (host)
Philippines

I wouldn't be surprised if the bottom two of Division IIIB gets put into Division IV and we end up with two groups of 4 at the bottom. Alternatively, there will be newcomers to the program, but I don't think that will happen this coming year.

The divisions above are correct according to this: 2023 World Ice Hockey Championships Lower Divisions - National Teams of Ice Hockey

Apparently, India will be debuting in Division IV.

 

[filip85]

Division IIA:
Australia
Croatia
Georgia
Iceland
Israel
Spain (host)

If Walker and Bronte brothers shows up I could see Australia beating Spain and get promoted. Otherwise it's Spain tournament to lose...

 

[SoundAndFury]

Walker playing at this level would be hilarious. I remember him playing against us years ago but he was AHL hopeful then and that was still much higher tier of competition.

 

[kaiser matias]

If Walker and Bronte brothers shows up I could see Australia beating Spain and get promoted. Otherwise it's Spain tournament to lose...

Don't count out Georgia. They are importing Russians (I think every goal they scored this year was by a Russian), and depending on the quality of players they bring in, they could surprise.

 

[Urbanskog]

Don't count out Georgia. They are importing Russians (I think every goal they scored this year was by a Russian), and depending on the quality of players they bring in, they could surprise.

Georgia can only naturalize players up to a very limited level of quality considering that they only have their rather undeveloped domestic league, though. Additionally, even this year they were not particularly impressive in 2B and only earned promotion because two teams were exceptionally promoted.

 

[Albatros]

Currently there are so many newly arrived Russians in Tbilisi that it's not a thing of impossibility that they could find a couple of decent hockey players among them going forward. A big difference that won't make though, but optimally could help keep their program alive.

 

[Eye of Ra]

If Walker and Bronte brothers shows up I could see Australia beating Spain and get promoted. Otherwise it's Spain tournament to lose...

Outside of those 3, Australia also have Wehebe Darge who is a pretty good player.