Prospect Info: [2023 - 5th OA] David Reinbacher (NL - EHC Kloten)

[Playmaker09]

No doubt it was a decision by Detroit. And a good one it seems. Even in the AHL, Seider did not reach 0.5 ppg so I don't seed how he could have performed well in the NHL.



I was not against Caufield going to and staying another year in the NCAA. I was not against sending Suzuki back to Junior for his age 19 year.

The proper decision is usually to wait until at least 20. However, if a player can handle it younger, then it is a positive thing most of the time to play in the NHL.


Galchenyuk developed fine. He got to where he was a ppg player playing 16-18 minutes at age 22 before he got hurt and sabotaged his own career.

Just to remind you though, this sub-thread is about me countering the 1000% ridiculous statement that no top prospect should play bottom 6 because all EVERY bottom 6 forward will do is try to survive. In real life, bottom six is a step along the way to top-6 for some, and the ceiling for others.

That's just semantics, and something I did not make clear originally.

When I say "bottom 6 forward" I don't mean how someone is deployed by their coach. Just like Suzuki is not a 1C and Malkin is not a 2C.
I'm speaking to a level of play. A fringe NHLer.
Any 18-19 year old who has to fight tooth and nail to crack the lineup should have that decision made easy for them by management, to spend an additional year at a lower level.

I have nothing against slow playing development in the NHL by starting a player in the bottom 6 and letting them work their way up, as they inevitably will when their level of play clearly outperforms their current role (Suzuki's rookie year).
In fact, it is consistent with my position in advocating for prospects to play at lower levels longer than you seem to deem necessary. Slow is good.

Your position is the inconsistent one.
If you believe in development by trial by fire, then why not start them on the first line from day one? Won't they learn more by playing with/against the best competition as early as possible? That's your whole reason for having them in the NHL from the beginning isn't it, so why stop there?

 

[Apoplectic Habs Fan]

Pages and pages of non Reinbacher talk.

ive missed you HF

 

[salbutera]

Vejdemo's mother dies when he was 13.

Thanks for the correction

 

[Jaynki]

That's where you're wrong. I can think of no better way to develop a player than have them not scoring, playing few minutes, and getting brained every so often. If anything he could have endured a few more headshots and scored fewer points, if only there were a super NHL to send him to. If anything, the NHL was too easy for Slaf, and I think it really showed.

You are contradicting yourself again.

What you are arguing goes in the same direction to people who argue that Slafkovsky would benefit from "better minutes, in a lesser league".

Like this thing existed, better minutes in a lesser league. Another non sense.

Like the NHLer who could benefit from playing in a more adjusted caliber. You are an NHLer or you are not. Once you are, there is nothing more appropriate for your skill level.

So like i said, where we disagree is Slaf NHL readyness. You think he is not ready. I think he is.

Pragmatism, stats and data suggest he was as good as your average 4th liner, therefore, an NHLer. From a more subjective pov, i think he also displayed the physical ability to play NHL.

Btw, your sarcasm gives a feeling of weakness to your argument.

 

[Jaynki]

Confidence is 100% something you gain or lose, but that is a mental skill.

Look at Phillies and Trea Turner. In the last 4 years going into last off-season, no player in NL had more hits then him, he signs a 300M deal and then has the worst year of his career until the day after what may have been his worst game of the season, the fans gave him a standing ovation and since then he's been the BEST player in the NL or even all of MLB. He talked about how the fans having his back got his confidence back and he went from shit to hitting everything.

As for KK, what you are seeing is a normal progression from a prospect that had many holes to fix, that should have been fixed at lower levels before putting him in the highest level. So the question becomes how much better could he have been so far had he not gotten much better coaching/development? It's clear Caufield greatly benefitted from Dom being fired so I think it's safe to say that you could see a noticeable jump in some prospects if put in different situations.

When you say that Seider is the player he is that's just crazy as you need to learn things in order to improve and if his coach just sat on his ass drinking beer and throws some pucks on the ice and says have at it, games at 7. I mean it's just crazy to me the way people seem to not think of how things really are.

Players do not lose nor gain confidence. A state of mind is variable and fluctuant. They don't lose their confidence more than they are in an temporary unfavorable state of mind but thats semantics at this point. I think we agree on this subject tho. My main point on confidence is simply that a player dont gain confidence by dominating minor league. Because we often hear that Slaf should go AHL to build confidence which i disagree with.

On KK, its tough to argue how better he would be had he been properly coached or used. Its very speculative. I think it would have given the appearance of a smoother development curve and would not have labelled him a bust but i am not sure he would be better today. In the end, its a question of ceiling and talent and it feels like the player will reach it. Like i said, he has been overdrafted by a couple of spots but after Hughes and Tkachuk, he would have felt a sincere solid pick. I don't think more minor league play or better development (i mean his agent surely took care of him no?) would have raised his ceiling.

On Seider, you are making an exageration. Of course if he dont practice, and train seriously he wont reach his ceiling.

What i mean is that Detroit properly coached and evaluated his tools and skillset first and foremost.

That he played AHL/SHL is not one of the primary factor as to why Seider grew and made somethings with his skillset.

 

[Jaynki]

Some players simply cannot deal with a huge jump in performance expectations and athleticism without some seasoning in a slightly less intense environment. Build up their confidence and develop their technique and tactical understanding.

For some players the jump is too high, the speed is too quick, and the demands are too much to sustain a productive and successful performance levels. They stop being themselves. They chase the play. They end up busting.
I don’t see how this is a strange notion. Rushing players absolutely can ruin

We all grasp the concept. It makes sense. But it may also be untrue.

Demonstrate it with concrete evidence.

One single evidence of an NHL talent busting because he has been rushed will do it. Just one.

You know another concept that made sense. Lets say we drop a car to the ground from 200ft, surely it should fall faster than an object half his weight right? Easy to grasp, logical. Most folks believed it until 1687.

What happened when we tried to demonstrate it?

I can give you a plethora of players who benefitted of NHL experience despite struggling early in their career.

I can give you example of player following their development curve and reaching their ceiling despite being in shitty organisation, misused, sheltered.

I can't find any single NHL talent who have failed because he has been rushed.

 

[Andrei79]

We all grasp the concept. It makes sense. But it may also be untrue.

Demonstrate it with concrete evidence.

One single evidence of an NHL talent busting because he has been rushed will do it. Just one.

You know another concept that made sense. Lets say we drop a car to the ground from 200ft, surely it should fall faster than an object half his weight right? Easy to grasp, logical. Most folks believed it until 1687.

What happened when we tried to demonstrate it?

I can give you a plethora of players who benefitted of NHL experience despite struggling early in their career.

I can give you example of player following their development curve and reaching their ceiling despite being in shitty organisation, misused, sheltered.

I can't find any single NHL talent who have failed because he has been rushed.

What kind of evidence is needed to show a player was rushed and busted?

 

[NotProkofievian]

You are contradicting yourself again.

What you are arguing goes in the same direction to people who argue that Slafkovsky would benefit from "better minutes, in a lesser league".

Like this thing existed, better minutes in a lesser league. Another non sense.

Like the NHLer who could benefit from playing in a more adjusted caliber. You are an NHLer or you are not. Once you are, there is nothing more appropriate for your skill level.

So like i said, where we disagree is Slaf NHL readyness. You think he is not ready. I think he is.

Pragmatism, stats and data suggest he was as good as your average 4th liner, therefore, an NHLer. From a more subjective pov, i think he also displayed the physical ability to play NHL.

Btw, your sarcasm gives a feeling of weakness to your argument.

Like I said, if anything a more difficult league for Slaf to play in would have been ideal. The NHL was too easy for Slaf to play in, and he had too much success, it was plain for everyone to see. Easy come, easy go, he needs a league that can actually challenge him. Once we have a league where he scores exactly 0 points, is a minus in every game he plays, gets rocked every game, then we will have arrived at his ideal level of play.

There is no internal contradiction to my argument, what problem do you have with it?

 

[BaseballCoach]

That's just semantics, and something I did not make clear originally.

When I say "bottom 6 forward" I don't mean how someone is deployed by their coach. Just like Suzuki is not a 1C and Malkin is not a 2C.
I'm speaking to a level of play. A fringe NHLer.

A fringe NHL forward is one who is #12, 13 or 14 (I'll include 12 because he is the first person dropped to let someone else play, or if he made an error, etc.)

A 7th or 8th forward however is far far from fringe but fits your "bottom six" category.

I have nothing against slow playing development in the NHL by starting a player in the bottom 6 and letting them work their way up, as they inevitably will when their level of play clearly outperforms their current role (Suzuki's rookie year).
In fact, it is consistent with my position in advocating for prospects to play at lower levels longer than you seem to deem necessary. Slow is good.

Your position is the inconsistent one.
If you believe in development by trial by fire, then why not start them on the first line from day one? Won't they learn more by playing with/against the best competition as early as possible? That's your whole reason for having them in the NHL from the beginning isn't it, so why stop there?

Where did I ever say kids should be developed by fire, implying they are over their heads and in danger of being burnt?

On the other hand, playing in the AHL as forward 15, 16 or 17 does not make sense to me if the player is good enough to handle #10 or #11.

It's not learning slower, it's learning LESS too.

 

[BaseballCoach]

That's where you're wrong. I can think of no better way to develop a player than have them not scoring, playing few minutes, and getting brained every so often. If anything he could have endured a few more headshots and scored fewer points, if only there were a super NHL to send him to. If anything, the NHL was too easy for Slaf, and I think it really showed.

I say a player must be ready for the NHL in order to benefit from it, and that the benefits are bigger ,..... f he is ready.

Being rocked a lot is one possible sign of a player not being ready. On the other hand, what about Jake Evans and Andrew Shaw before him? Should they have played their entire careers in the AHL?

 

[montreal]

Players do not lose nor gain confidence. A state of mind is variable and fluctuant. They don't lose their confidence more than they are in an temporary unfavorable state of mind but thats semantics at this point. I think we agree on this subject tho. My main point on confidence is simply that a player dont gain confidence by dominating minor league. Because we often hear that Slaf should go AHL to build confidence which i disagree with.

On KK, its tough to argue how better he would be had he been properly coached or used. Its very speculative. I think it would have given the appearance of a smoother development curve and would not have labelled him a bust but i am not sure he would be better today. In the end, its a question of ceiling and talent and it feels like the player will reach it. Like i said, he has been overdrafted by a couple of spots but after Hughes and Tkachuk, he would have felt a sincere solid pick. I don't think more minor league play or better development (i mean his agent surely took care of him no?) would have raised his ceiling.

On Seider, you are making an exageration. Of course if he dont practice, and train seriously he wont reach his ceiling.

What i mean is that Detroit properly coached and evaluated his tools and skillset first and foremost.

That he played AHL/SHL is not one of the primary factor as to why Seider grew and made somethings with his skillset.

I couldn't take someone serious that believes players don't gain or lose confidence when so many have talked about it. But this usually comes from the "you are born with it" posters to which I find insane logic that I just can't get on board with as it makes no sense at all. There is no way a human wouldn't gain or lose confidence based on results. I can't even begin to grasp how anyone could think otherwise.

 

[Jaynki]

Like I said, if anything a more difficult league for Slaf to play in would have been ideal. The NHL was too easy for Slaf to play in, and he had too much success, it was plain for everyone to see. Easy come, easy go, he needs a league that can actually challenge him. Once we have a league where he scores exactly 0 points, is a minus in every game he plays, gets rocked every game, then we will have arrived at his ideal level of play.

There is no internal contradiction to my argument, what problem do you have with it?

Ok lets leave it at that then.

What kind of evidence is needed to show a player was rushed and busted?

An actual player that busted because he was rushed.

Can you name one?

Which NHL talent failed his career and the reason was that he was rushed?

Like i said, its like how we thought of gravity. It made sense until it was time to demonstrate it then f***ing Newton caught us all with our pants down.

Its pretty simple mate. When you are an NHL caliber player, there is no better place to be than the NHL.

 

[Andrei79]

Ok lets leave it at that then.


An actual player that busted because he was rushed.

Can you name one?

Which NHL talent failed his career and the reason was that he was rushed?

Like i said, its like how we thought of gravity. It made sense until it was time to demonstrate it then f***ing Newton caught us all with our pants down.

Its pretty simple mate. When you are an NHL caliber player, there is no better place to be than the NHL.

You didn't answer the question though. You just repeated your previous post. What kind of evidence would be needed to show a player busted because he was rushed ?

 

[Jaynki]

I couldn't take someone serious that believes players don't gain or lose confidence when so many have talked about it. But this usually comes from the "you are born with it" posters to which I find insane logic that I just can't get on board with as it makes no sense at all. There is no way a human wouldn't gain or lose confidence based on results. I can't even begin to grasp how anyone could think otherwise.

Confidence comes before success.

You can't reach the NHL sphere without being unconfident in your ability. You won't be a 1st overall pick if you need to go to the AHL to build your confidence.

Its incongruent.

We all agree players can go to cold stretch or have some hot stretches. Thats more about temporary mindset shift than it is about inner confidence.

Can Slafkovsky goes to the AHL during a cold streak to shift the temporary problematic mindset? Maybe.

He surely does not have to go to build confidence tho.

I dont think you are born with confidence. Its a mental skill that can be developped and that has to be worked on and honed constantly.

You didn't answer the question though. You just repeated your previous post. What kind of evidence would be needed to show a player busted because he was rushed ?

A player that busted because he was rushed.

 

[Andrei79]

Confidence comes before success.

You can't reach the NHL sphere without being unconfident in your ability. You won't be a 1st overall pick if you need to go to the AHL to build your confidence.

Its incongruent.

We all agree players can go to cold stretch or have some hot stretches. Thats more about temporary mindset shift than it is about confidence.

Can Slafkovsky goes to the AHL during a cold streak to shift the temporary problematic mindset? Maybe.

He surely does not have to go to build confidence.

I dont think you are born with confidence. Its a mental skill that can be developped and that has to be worked on and honed constantly.


A player that busted because he was rushed.

In other words, your question has no parameters and any example brought forth can be dismissed. How convenient.

 

[Jaynki]

In other words, your question has no parameters and any example brought forth can be dismissed. How convenient.

My question has no answer because the impression that struggling in the NHL at 18YO, assuming a player is mentally and physically ready, can ruin a player is simply false and cant be demonstrated.

I used gravity as a metaphor. I do understand that it totally makes sense for a player to dominate the AHL before graduating and having a smooth, linear development curve. Just like it makes sense for an heavier object to fall down faster than a lighter one. Or that it makes sense that earth is flat from our on the ground point of view.

But when it comes to demonstration, gravity disregard the weight and goes against the logical belief. And the earth is round.

When it comes to find an NHL talent who busted because he was rushed, there is no answer because its a fallacy.

But when it comes the times to find superstar talent who benefitted of an NHL environment at 18 despite struggling, the list is long. Very long. One who weighed in favour into Slafkovsky playing in the NHL even struggled as a former 1st at 18yo(lecavalier)

We even have exemple of players struggling and being rushed and misused on the way to reach their ceiling anyway, like KK. Can add Dach.

So most here argue : you need to dominate lower league before graduating and have a smooth, linear development curve. We will sabotage Slaf by rushing him. There is no jurisprudence to support this claim.

To that i counter argue : when you have an NHL skillset and the physical maturity to handle the pace of the game, which i belief Slaf has, there is no environment better than the NHL to learn the game and develop.

So like gravity before 1687 or the flat earth theory during the 1500s, the option that feel less logical, less linear is actually the one demonstrable.

 

[DAChampion]

In other words, your question has no parameters and any example brought forth can be dismissed. How convenient.

Anybody who has ever had a skill -- any skill -- knows that both development and talent matter.

 

[Jaynki]

Anybody who has ever had a skill -- any skill -- knows that both development and talent matter.

We all agree with this, no?

 

[DAChampion]

We all agree with this, no?

You do not.

 

[Jaynki]

You do not.

Where did i argued that you can't have development in the NHL?

Its actually my argument : If you have NHL skills and have the physical maturity, there is no better place to develop than the NHL.

 

[Andrei79]

Where did i argued that you can't have development in the NHL?

Its actually my argument : If you have NHL skills and have the physical maturity, there is no better place to develop than the NHL.

Prove it. There's no evidence to this statement.


I'm not serious by the way. I don't expect any genuine discussion from this and there are players for whom being in the NHL is the most beneficial path. It's funny to think that this is a one way road though, where you can benefit from developing in the NHL, but the opposite isn't true, you were just meant to fail if this happened too soon lol.

You hold a very convenient position where you can dismiss any argument brought forth. If you want to argue by yourself, you don't need a message board to do it.

 

[Jaynki]

Prove it. There's no evidence to this statement.

:Laugh:

I'm not serious by the way. I don't expect any genuine discussion from this.

I hope nobody is serious on this f***ing boards!

I think Jack Hughes, Stutzle felt like players being rushed, at 18. I even think NJ fans got impatient with Hughes after a 2nd NHL season where he felt stagnant. Then he became an absolute superstar.

I think they benefitted more by struggling in the NHL then they would have benefitted dominating the NCAA or the AHL.

In both cases tho, i believe they would be the player they are today tho, despite the road that lead them there.

 

[Andrei79]

I hope nobody is serious on this f***ing boards!

I think Jack Hughes, Stutzle felt like players being rushed, at 18. I even think NJ fans got impatient with Hughes after a 2nd NHL season where he felt stagnant. Then he became an absolute superstar.

I think they benefitted more by struggling in the NHL then they would have benefitted dominating the NCAA or the AHL.

In both cases tho, i believe they would be the player they are today tho, despite the road that lead them there.

Belief isn't evidence. I believe they would have been even better, even sooner. That's my evidence.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Confidence comes before success.

This is so wrong headed, I don't know where to begin. How do you think people develop confidence to begin with?

You can't reach the NHL sphere without being unconfident in your ability. You won't be a 1st overall pick if you need to go to the AHL to build your confidence.

You can be the most confident guy in the world and not make the NHL.

Guys who make the NHL are ones who can demonstrate results. Those results in turn usually produce confidence in the player. Confidence doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Lafleur talked about it a lot. If you don't have confidence in yourself, you will never produce. You need opportunity. Opportunity leads to success. This leads to confidence and - hopefully - better results.

What are you learning by being called up to the NHL and sitting on the bench? What are you learning when you're played with scrubs for five minutes a night? You're learning that maybe you weren't as good as you thought you were. Doubt creeps in. Results fall off. We saw this over and over here.

I'm very confident that Joshua Roy would've been called up by now under MB. He'd probably have been used on the 4th line with scrubs. That's the way we did things here. Do you think his time in the Q was wasted? Do you think he didn't progress during this time? Do you think he's better for his time there? I do.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Belief isn't evidence. I believe they would have been even better, even sooner. That's my evidence.

It's really so simple, I can't believe that a medical doctor can't grasp it. All players are ready for the NHL at all times. Whether they are ready to succeed or to bust is the question.