2023-24 Junior Hockey Expansion, Relocation, and Retraction

[PCSPounder]

Just in case some of the cities these leagues are looking at are in northern Washington, Idaho or (doubtful but you never know??) Montana.

The BCHL is musing about adding another US based team or two.

Option 1- Commissioner is on the good stuff. Share the drugs, sir! No rink in Washington or Northern Idaho currently has half the capacity of Wenatchee. Plus it’s going to take some large effort for the one place in Coeur d’Alene to not only expand (they want a second rink), but to add seats. (I get it, CdA is really pretty, it’s also commuting distance from Spokane and a proposal I don’t take seriously)

Option 2- Dude has an in with the sometimes rumored group of people trying to build new arenas or convert warehouses. This might bring back Option 1 in terms of what’s been done so far.

Option 3- He thinks WHL teams in the US won’t survive. This actually requires the least amount of drugs, because the eye test does not support claims of solid attendance. There’s also more than a little border instability after events of the last several years. HOWEVER, the Kraken have tried to support the area WHL teams out of the sense of duty they claimed to possess when they arrived on the scene… funny thing being that I went to the Thunderbirds game in Climate Pledge in the last week of December, the lower bowl was nowhere near full, the upper levels were blocked off, and the ticket prices were hilariously high (and I paid for that crap?!?). It leaves me to wonder how much of a cut the T-Birds got, especially considering that game was ticketed by the Kraken/Ticket&@$#@)% and not the T-Birds.

Olympia is a market worth considering, and I highly doubt it has a rink.

Bellingham has had BCHL before… in a rink that no longer exists. I happened to go to the Sportsplex for Blazers v Rogue Valley a couple Sundays ago. The person I contacted there says the place can hold 2,000, and in an awkward way I believe this, but could you provide all the fan services there doing that? Not without money, and the city owns the facility. (There are scattered bleachers that seat 500 for now plus a little bit of standing room.)

The virgin markets are in Oregon. Eugene has a proposal that I won’t bet in favor of right now. Salem, Bend, and Medford are all better markets than Idaho Falls or Wenatchee, and I can think of a couple more in the range of some of, say, Moose Jaw-sized locales. I just highly doubt the BCHL wants that much travel.

So I’d give Option 3 a look, but I’d also request the commissioner take a drug test.

 

[MeHateHe]

Option 1- Commissioner is on the good stuff. Share the drugs, sir! No rink in Washington or Northern Idaho currently has half the capacity of Wenatchee. Plus it’s going to take some large effort for the one place in Coeur d’Alene to not only expand (they want a second rink), but to add seats. (I get it, CdA is really pretty, it’s also commuting distance from Spokane and a proposal I don’t take seriously)

Option 2- Dude has an in with the sometimes rumored group of people trying to build new arenas or convert warehouses. This might bring back Option 1 in terms of what’s been done so far.

Option 3- He thinks WHL teams in the US won’t survive. This actually requires the least amount of drugs, because the eye test does not support claims of solid attendance. There’s also more than a little border instability after events of the last several years. HOWEVER, the Kraken have tried to support the area WHL teams out of the sense of duty they claimed to possess when they arrived on the scene… funny thing being that I went to the Thunderbirds game in Climate Pledge in the last week of December, the lower bowl was nowhere near full, the upper levels were blocked off, and the ticket prices were hilariously high (and I paid for that crap?!?). It leaves me to wonder how much of a cut the T-Birds got, especially considering that game was ticketed by the Kraken/Ticket&@$#@)% and not the T-Birds.

Olympia is a market worth considering, and I highly doubt it has a rink.

Bellingham has had BCHL before… in a rink that no longer exists. I happened to go to the Sportsplex for Blazers v Rogue Valley a couple Sundays ago. The person I contacted there says the place can hold 2,000, and in an awkward way I believe this, but could you provide all the fan services there doing that? Not without money, and the city owns the facility. (There are scattered bleachers that seat 500 for now plus a little bit of standing room.)

The virgin markets are in Oregon. Eugene has a proposal that I won’t bet in favor of right now. Salem, Bend, and Medford are all better markets than Idaho Falls or Wenatchee, and I can think of a couple more in the range of some of, say, Moose Jaw-sized locales. I just highly doubt the BCHL wants that much travel.

So I’d give Option 3 a look, but I’d also request the commissioner take a drug test.

Is there a useful rink in Coeur d'Alene? I immediately thought Bellingham but I'll take your word about the arena there - would love to see a team called the Ice Hawks, because that's a thing.

But if CdA is actually an option, maybe they're thinking another inland US team, plus another team in the Kootenays (Nelson or Castlegar) and you've got a five-team division with Cranbrook.= and Trail. I know Nelson, with a hundred years of hockey competition with Trail, has been looking off-and-on at trying to get into the BCHL.

 

[mk80]

Just in case some of the cities these leagues are looking at are in northern Washington, Idaho or (doubtful but you never know??) Montana.

The BCHL is musing about adding another US based team or two.

I was wondering if this would happen. As for Idaho I feel like Idaho Falls/Boise is too far South but maybe CDA? Moscow?

Idaho Falls is a bit of a stretch distance wise, since they are in Eastern/Southeastern Idaho. Unless the BCHL filled in the gaps between Wenatchee and Idaho Falls for their division. But I'd imagine they want locations more towards the coast.

It's looking like we have a 3rd player in the junior hockey turf war for the Western US now, in the BCHL's case the Pacific Northwest. I know the NAHL wants that area to pair with their Alaska teams for a division, and I'd imagine they were hoping by making a push that way they were hoping to flip Wenatchee back. The USPHL Pacific division is surely in the sights of both the BCHL and NAHL, and I think as a whole the USPHL fighting two essentially two fronts against both leagues is going to make for a difficult time for them.

 

[MeHateHe]

It's looking like we have a 3rd player in the junior hockey turf war for the Western US now, in the BCHL's case the Pacific Northwest. I know the NAHL wants that area to pair with their Alaska teams for a division, and I'd imagine they were hoping by making a push that way they were hoping to flip Wenatchee back. The USPHL Pacific division is surely in the sights of both the BCHL and NAHL, and I think as a whole the USPHL fighting two essentially two fronts against both leagues is going to make for a difficult time for them.

I wonder how much of a toehold the BCHL wants in the US. Eugene is, what, seven hours from metro Vancouver, plus the border, which means a 16-hour trek to Prince George.

Having a second team south of the line will make life easier for Wenatchee, and for teams traveling (crossing the border for two games is more efficient than crossing for one). And maybe Pounder is right, that they're looking at Tacoma or Everett should either of those teams start to have trouble competing with the NHL. And then there's the question of whether we're talking about expansion or relocating existing BCHL franchises (Merritt or West Kelowna come to mind), which will impact how quickly these changes could come about.

 

[GrizzGreen]

Salem, Bend, and Medford are all better markets than Idaho Falls or Wenatchee

Wenatchee is an apex junior market. They support a team extremely well.

Source: from Oregon, played in Wenatchee

 

[Captain Crash]

It's time for some speculation, folks!

So, with the Vermilion County Bobcats finally off to that big litter box in the sky, Danville's David S Palmer Arena is officially a free agent this offseason. Obviously the SPHL won't work there, and the city was so keen to get the FHL out it's hard to imagine they'd go back down that road.

Might we instead see Danville return to junior hockey? The market fits well geographically for both the USHL and NAHL, but demographically it's doubtful they could muster the attendance for the former. Could Danville become another battleground for the NAHL vs USPHL war?

 

[JMCx4]

It's time for some speculation, folks!

So, with the Vermilion County Bobcats finally off to that big litter box in the sky, Danville's David S Palmer Arena is officially a free agent this offseason. Obviously the SPHL won't work there, and the city was so keen to get the FHL out it's hard to imagine they'd go back down that road.

Might we instead see Danville return to junior hockey? The market fits well geographically for both the USHL and NAHL, but demographically it's doubtful they could muster the attendance for the former. Could Danville become another battleground for the NAHL vs USPHL war?

Unless/until Vermilion County & their arena management see a monetary AND political advantage to fixing and maintaining their ice, no hockey league with an ounce of sense would place a franchise there.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

It's time for some speculation, folks!

So, with the Vermilion County Bobcats finally off to that big litter box in the sky, Danville's David S Palmer Arena is officially a free agent this offseason. Obviously the SPHL won't work there, and the city was so keen to get the FHL out it's hard to imagine they'd go back down that road.

Might we instead see Danville return to junior hockey? The market fits well geographically for both the USHL and NAHL, but demographically it's doubtful they could muster the attendance for the former. Could Danville become another battleground for the NAHL vs USPHL war?

Danville to the NAHL?

They were league members for 10 years from the 90s through the 2000s. They were Robertson Cup champions. Danville roughly has what the league looks for in a Midwest market, in terms of history of hockey support, arena capacity, businesses, etc.

However, with the league booting out the Dashers and the circus that has been the Bobcats over the past 1.5 years, I am going to say the market has been burned. The most important part of the NAHL requirements are ownership and arena. The arena clearly doesn't know what they're doing or they would have let that crazy lady with her director of security sweet talk them into booting out a well-established and well-liked team. The only reason the Dashers lasted so long was because Barry Soskin was at the helm.

Without any competent rink management as well as without any known owners to take over, I'd say it would be a burned market. Which is a real shame considering if they had the 1k/game support Danville had, they would be a great addition to the Central Division of the NAHL.

USPHL war for that arena likely wouldn't happen. Save for maybe Idaho for the first couple of years of their existence, the NAHL has won every battle with the USPHL.

 

[PCSPounder]

I was wondering if this would happen. As for Idaho I feel like Idaho Falls/Boise is too far South but maybe CDA? Moscow?

So to have another chuckle before scratching all the hair off my head, please to look at the WHL board and the emerging rumors that the WHL Ice are not long for Winnipeg.

Wenatchee is named.

So is Chilliwack, which might answer the question as to whether a partner for Wenatchee is really going to be an expansion team.

Still, even though you figure the pandemic factors prominently into why the Ice can’t find a facility in Winnipeg, just that story is still way too bonkers. Mixing it up with this situation just makes it a bit spicy.

 

[mk80]

New USPHL in Jacksonville starting up next year

 

[SemireliableSource]

If you wanna go with a location nickname, just be the Duval Dogs or something and you can use the same logo.

 

[mk80]

If you wanna go with a location nickname, just be the Duval Dogs or something and you can use the same logo.

Honestly I thought of that exact same thing. Perhaps Duval is a Jags trademark thing?

 

[JMCx4]

If you wanna go with a location nickname, just be the Duval Dogs or something and you can use the same logo.

"Bold City is a nickname for Jacksonville, and a popular local claim to the City being the largest City by land area in the U.S. in 1968." Living in the past must be a "Bold" marketing strategy.

 

[PCSPounder]

Certainly impressive support so far in Idaho Falls, but let's see if that support extends past Season 1. They certainly wouldn't be the first or last place to have fan support fall off a cliff in Season 2. If Idaho Falls ends up bringing support year in and year out, they ought to look at a level of junior higher than USPHL.



Hard for it to be worse than what they're watching now.

In the heat of the moment, I might have started a whole thread about my ill-advised but educational trip to Idaho Falls.It ended up snowing on the I-15 corridor Saturday evening, after all.

And I get there and there’s a line to get in. Find out that face-off was delayed an hour and people weren’t let in yet. No explanation. One of my knees wanted to turn around right then. I didn’t listen. What I did hear was people complaining about not being allowed to throw stuff on the ice, unless they were “told to do so.“ Oh dear… flashbacks to when this was a topic when the Idaho Steelheads were born. Then someone’s making jokes about how dare any Provo fans show up. Now both knees want to turn around. Yet here I am.

The arena… a lot of similarities with Wenatchee. A few differences, none that important. BTW… this means copious beer sales, which I’ve never seen for this level. Even some good stuff. The PA warns people against profanity before playing the song with the line “teenagers scare the living $#/* out of me” uncensored.

The first period… a mess. These teams look worse than Bellingham (who are nothing to write home about). They can barely bring the puck over the blue line. Five shots for each team in the first, Provo with a PP goal (the penalty called because a frustrated IF player throws the broken butt-end of his stick against the glass).

Then I didn’t scramble to the concourse after the first and all was revealed. 25 minutes went on the clock for intermission. I have miles to drive after the game; this isn’t helping. One foot is nearly out the door. So let the Zamboni ease my mind a bit… but there’s almost no water flooding the ice. Yup, it doesn’t look right. It scrapes, it doesn’t do much else. I question the number of Zamboni doctors on call within a 3-hour drive. It made two trips around. That explains the play in the first period. The ref consults staff before the 2nd; probably some question about continuing, but it’s on. Idaho Falls scored on a 5-on-3, things get chippy, IF gets a second. Not long after that, things get worse, the ref probably waits 30 seconds too long to blow play dead as a near fight becomes a fight, a Provo player gets a game (I don’t doubt he earned it, but there’s a couple IF players committing clear misconducts that only go semi-punished). Then the PA is calling security over to the Provo bench and the tunnel because drinks were poured on players. The fight fans come out in force. The PA at least matches their energy in asking for fans to tell on fellow fans. Order gets restored somewhat, IF gets another goal. Another 25-minute intermission.

At least the game ops staff was prepared for the long intermissions. All the giveaways, all the usual games on the video boards, arena blimp, the usual sensory overload. They clearly had backup materials for situations like this. It’s also obvious that they’ve spent time dialing back some things that happened early in the season.

Probably a third of the fans left after the 2nd. Mostly the families, especially those with kids. The delay had a lot to do with it, I’m sure.

The third period has a lot of penalties, but was less chippy and just more desperate than anything. At the end of the game, a prayer circle with most of the IF players and a handful of Provo players. Life is surreptitiously rich.

Idaho Falls is probably still majority Mormon. There is the nearby Idaho National Laboratory, so it’s not a one-trick economy. So you had families and some real rowdies in that crowd, and the trick is to find the happy medium between both. Of course, I know that things evolve, and as long as fans know how to adjust expectations, they evolve with it. Thing is, that stage is a bit big for pay-for-play hockey, there were expectations set forth when the arena was originally proposed (they were looking to go pro in some league), so that transition gets all the more complicated. At the least, this is an arena where NAHL belongs… can they make that happen?

Venting over.

 

[JMCx4]

In the heat of the moment, I might have started a whole thread about my ill-advised but educational trip to Idaho Falls. ...

Too bad your knees prevented you from joining that prayer circle. Maybe next time.

 

[MeHateHe]

So to have another chuckle before scratching all the hair off my head, please to look at the WHL board and the emerging rumors that the WHL Ice are not long for Winnipeg.

Wenatchee is named.

So is Chilliwack, which might answer the question as to whether a partner for Wenatchee is really going to be an expansion team.

(Steve Ewen covers junior hockey for the Vancouver Province.)

This is an interesting angle I had kind of glossed over, but I think the only way the WHL goes back to Chilliwack is if it's the Chiefs and/or whoever owns them running the show. Having said all that, part of the reason the WHL was so interested in having Winnipeg rejoin the WHL was because Brandon was stranded all alone out there. I think it would take an awful lot for the league to let the Ice pull up stakes and move another team in the Pacific time zone. Our friends on the prairies get a little snippy if they think the balance gets tilted too far away from what I'll call middle western Canada, despite the plethora of really good junior hockey markets out west (Penticton, Chilliwack and, if they ever get an arena, Nanaimo to name three in BC, plus Wenatchee.) Are we still waiting for one of the Seattle teams to relocate because of the Kraken?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

(Steve Ewen covers junior hockey for the Vancouver Province.)

This is an interesting angle I had kind of glossed over, but I think the only way the WHL goes back to Chilliwack is if it's the Chiefs and/or whoever owns them running the show. Having said all that, part of the reason the WHL was so interested in having Winnipeg rejoin the WHL was because Brandon was stranded all alone out there. I think it would take an awful lot for the league to let the Ice pull up stakes and move another team in the Pacific time zone. Our friends on the prairies get a little snippy if they think the balance gets tilted too far away from what I'll call middle western Canada, despite the plethora of really good junior hockey markets out west (Penticton, Chilliwack and, if they ever get an arena, Nanaimo to name three in BC, plus Wenatchee.) Are we still waiting for one of the Seattle teams to relocate because of the Kraken?

Both the Seattle area WHL teams are staying put.

Everett's attendance this year is higher than their average attendance during the 2010s.

Seattle's attendance is indeed down compared to most years, which is somewhat concerning considering they're one of the top teams in the league this year, but they're also very open about having attendance that increases as the season goes along and there is less competition for entertainment dollars.

The Kraken have also blared from the rooftops on many occasions on how they expect a rising increase in hockey interest will raise everyone's respective ships, how they plan to work together with their WHL friends, and how they want both of them to succeed.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

In the heat of the moment, I might have started a whole thread about my ill-advised but educational trip to Idaho Falls.It ended up snowing on the I-15 corridor Saturday evening, after all.

And I get there and there’s a line to get in. Find out that face-off was delayed an hour and people weren’t let in yet. No explanation. One of my knees wanted to turn around right then. I didn’t listen. What I did hear was people complaining about not being allowed to throw stuff on the ice, unless they were “told to do so.“ Oh dear… flashbacks to when this was a topic when the Idaho Steelheads were born. Then someone’s making jokes about how dare any Provo fans show up. Now both knees want to turn around. Yet here I am.

The arena… a lot of similarities with Wenatchee. A few differences, none that important. BTW… this means copious beer sales, which I’ve never seen for this level. Even some good stuff. The PA warns people against profanity before playing the song with the line “teenagers scare the living $#/* out of me” uncensored.

The first period… a mess. These teams look worse than Bellingham (who are nothing to write home about). They can barely bring the puck over the blue line. Five shots for each team in the first, Provo with a PP goal (the penalty called because a frustrated IF player throws the broken butt-end of his stick against the glass).

Then I didn’t scramble to the concourse after the first and all was revealed. 25 minutes went on the clock for intermission. I have miles to drive after the game; this isn’t helping. One foot is nearly out the door. So let the Zamboni ease my mind a bit… but there’s almost no water flooding the ice. Yup, it doesn’t look right. It scrapes, it doesn’t do much else. I question the number of Zamboni doctors on call within a 3-hour drive. It made two trips around. That explains the play in the first period. The ref consults staff before the 2nd; probably some question about continuing, but it’s on. Idaho Falls scored on a 5-on-3, things get chippy, IF gets a second. Not long after that, things get worse, the ref probably waits 30 seconds too long to blow play dead as a near fight becomes a fight, a Provo player gets a game (I don’t doubt he earned it, but there’s a couple IF players committing clear misconducts that only go semi-punished). Then the PA is calling security over to the Provo bench and the tunnel because drinks were poured on players. The fight fans come out in force. The PA at least matches their energy in asking for fans to tell on fellow fans. Order gets restored somewhat, IF gets another goal. Another 25-minute intermission.

At least the game ops staff was prepared for the long intermissions. All the giveaways, all the usual games on the video boards, arena blimp, the usual sensory overload. They clearly had backup materials for situations like this. It’s also obvious that they’ve spent time dialing back some things that happened early in the season.

Probably a third of the fans left after the 2nd. Mostly the families, especially those with kids. The delay had a lot to do with it, I’m sure.

The third period has a lot of penalties, but was less chippy and just more desperate than anything. At the end of the game, a prayer circle with most of the IF players and a handful of Provo players. Life is surreptitiously rich.

Idaho Falls is probably still majority Mormon. There is the nearby Idaho National Laboratory, so it’s not a one-trick economy. So you had families and some real rowdies in that crowd, and the trick is to find the happy medium between both. Of course, I know that things evolve, and as long as fans know how to adjust expectations, they evolve with it. Thing is, that stage is a bit big for pay-for-play hockey, there were expectations set forth when the arena was originally proposed (they were looking to go pro in some league), so that transition gets all the more complicated. At the least, this is an arena where NAHL belongs… can they make that happen?

Venting over.

I'm surprised the experience was that good.

I coach at the ACHA level, not going to be more specific than that because of obvious privacy concerns. I have personally watched full games and individual clips/highlight packages of many, many junior games and teams.

Idaho Falls is particularly confusing. Never have I seen such a big disparity between the level of organizational professionalism off-ice, I guess you could say professionalism or attempt to look professional with the 4,000 seat arena that is typically full, broadcast, ticket sales, sponsorships, look, etc., and the actual level of play on the ice.

Typically the questions I have in our player notes are "can he adjust to the college level,? "what are his strengths in situation X?" and "what is his body language at certain points in the game and the season?" For Idaho Falls, the question is mostly "how did they advance past the Midget level?"

Partway through a few of their games I actually turned on the LiveBarn replays of the games for the Squirt AA team our college players help out as part of their community service requirements, in order to help cleanse my palate.

 

[PCSPounder]

I'm surprised the experience was that good.

I coach at the ACHA level, not going to be more specific than that because of obvious privacy concerns. I have personally watched full games and individual clips/highlight packages of many, many junior games and teams.

Idaho Falls is particularly confusing. Never have I seen such a big disparity between the level of organizational professionalism off-ice, I guess you could say professionalism or attempt to look professional with the 4,000 seat arena that is typically full, broadcast, ticket sales, sponsorships, look, etc., and the actual level of play on the ice.

Typically the questions I have in our player notes are "can he adjust to the college level,? "what are his strengths in situation X?" and "what is his body language at certain points in the game and the season?" For Idaho Falls, the question is mostly "how did they advance past the Midget level?"

Partway through a few of their games I actually turned on the LiveBarn replays of the games for the Squirt AA team our college players help out as part of their community service requirements, in order to help cleanse my palate.

I believe one of the key people in this project was a former University of Idaho athletic director. If he provided advice to the operating side of the house, it might have been decent.

 

[Captain Crash]

 

[mk80]

So that will make a 9 team east division if it is truly an expansion

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Hooksett could be a surprisingly solid NAHL market.

The area has a history of supporting hockey when it is priced somewhat reasonably and marketed well. They were linked before with a NAHL team back when the Monarchs were trying to decide which way out of the EHL they would take, they packed their arena on a regular basis under their old coach and manager, Ryan Frew, who unfortunately passed and the crowds lightened.

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Facility could hold maybe 1,000. Certainly isn't high quality by many standards.

It is almost certainly another attempt by the NAHL to continue pressure on their NCDC friends. It would be the third rink they immediately kick them out of and to my knowledge the fourth market they've occupied post-NCDC in total.

 

[PCSPounder]

BCHL and Seattle Kraken to host 2023 Showcase event in Seattle

bchl.ca

An interesting decision for the BCHL.

And having been to Langley over the weekend (vs Surrey, so an actual crowd there instead of the empty seats I’ve seen in other videos), 500 seating, certainly some standing room, and probably 200 capacity for tables and “suites” on the other side, supposedly making use of the steakhouse on the premises, I’ll start to wonder if BCHL would actually use the Kraken facility for a new franchise. Eh, that’s even far-fetched to me, but who knows?

 

[JMCx4]

VERY good excuse for a visit to the Seattle area in October.

 

[MeHateHe]

500 seating, certainly some standing room, and probably 200 capacity for tables and “suites” on the other side,

You mean the BCHL would expand to Seattle in a 500-seat arena? Or do you mean they're just trying to get a toehold in the Seattle market in perhaps another rink? The sense I get from this league - having been around it for close to 30 years, is they take themselves too seriously for a rink that small. Never mind that some of the teams struggle to draw actual crowds (Langley, Merritt) the league has in the past called for a minimum capacity of 1,500. (Merritt's rink probably only fits 1,500 if fans fill the neutral zone.)

So, maybe. Is there room in Seattle for yet another hockey team?