Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[STL Shark]

There's been like 20 actual NHLers out of like 100 that have come through this team the last 6 years. Continuing to use this terrible reasoning to justify acquiring more stank lol

Cool. And I said the last decade which encompasses a SCF, WCF, and 2 more playoff years because 1) it's true and 2) I understand that the last 6 years were abysmal. Either learn how to read or don't straw man the argument into something that is not remotely attributable to what I said.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It's indicative of failures within the Rangers org that a 25-year old freak athlete has regressed, and further it falls in line with other turmoil around the rangers regarding letting Goodrow go (lol, but true) and trading Truoba. That's a broken team.

Of course the price has to be right, but he is a prime buy low candidate for this team to take a flyer on. We need to make moves to improve the team next year, and Miller would do that. Maybe that need is revisited next season, but deal with that as it happens.

Why isn’t it on the player for stagnating in some areas and declining in some others? Just seems like making excuses to me. He’s part of the reason that team is broken because he hasn’t made improvements in his game since his 40+ point season.

He's potentially available because NYR have such little cap space. They have $8M to sign him and Cuylle while also filling out their lineup and finding any upgrades. To suggest they're not really hurting for cap space is positively nonsensical. So with that, I'm out on this discussion.

They’re clearly not if they’re sold on keeping Miller. Like why in your mind does a projected 6 mil player not pretty easily fit in a cap structure that currently has 8 mil in space before dumping even guys like Soucy or Kreider. If Miller is that guy, moving either of them to get him signed on top of that space is very easily achievable. The reason he’s available is that he’s a great athlete that isn’t that great of a player because his decision making is very questionable. That also isn’t hurting for cap space either. That’s normal shuffling things around sort of stuff. I just don’t get the hype you seem to have for him. To suggest that is nonsensical is just sad on your part but seems on brand.

 

[Grinner]

Today I learned this guy is "garden variety." There are a lot of criticisms you can levy at Miller but a 6'5 defenseman who skates like the wind is one of the least garden variety players in the league.

and possesses no tool box of which to speak of

 

[Hodge]

and possesses no tool box of which to speak of

You could say the same thing about Burns when we acquired him and frankly for the rest of his career too.

 

[Grinner]

You could say the same thing about Burns when we acquired him and frankly for the rest of his career too.

One of the things Burns could do was score goals.

 

[Hodge]

One of the things Burns could do was score goals.

Which is a great bonus but also one the least important skills for a defenseman.

KAM has been stuck behind Adam Fox in New York. Let him run our PP1 and I think he's easily a 50+ point guy.

 

[Grinner]

Which is a great bonus but also one the least important skills for a defenseman.

KAM has been stuck behind Adam Fox in New York. Let him run our PP1 and I think he's easily a 50+ point guy.

Wow!
A great bonus that won't him a Norris.
I don't see it

 

[Juxtaposer]

Which is a great bonus but also one the least important skills for a defenseman.

KAM has been stuck behind Adam Fox in New York. Let him run our PP1 and I think he's easily a 50+ point guy.

How about the most important skill for a defenseman, playing defense? Miller doesn’t do that well either.

Miller does nothing well except be big and skate well. He’s still a legit top-4 D because of that but there isn’t the raw elite offensive upside that Burns had and comparing K’Andre to young Burns has no basis in reality. People have lost the plot on what Burns was when he was traded.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Which is a great bonus but also one the least important skills for a defenseman.

KAM has been stuck behind Adam Fox in New York. Let him run our PP1 and I think he's easily a 50+ point guy.

Miller doesn't have the skills needed to be an effective PP1. He's a shutdown guy and that guy anchoring a shutdown pairing with questionable decision-making is not what the Sharks really need at this point.

 

[Hodge]

How about the most important skill for a defenseman, playing defense? Miller doesn’t do that well either.

Miller does nothing well except be big and skate well. He’s still a legit top-4 D because of that but there isn’t the raw elite offensive upside that Burns had and comparing K’Andre to young Burns has no basis in reality. People have lost the plot on what Burns was when he was traded.

Burns was so awful at playing defense when we acquired him that he was literally converted to forward. He never really improved all that much even when he was shifted back. Miller is much better defensively than Burns was at the same age and he's still young enough to have untapped upside. We would be buying him at the lowest point in his value and if that 6x6.5M projection from AFP is accurate it has the potential to be an absolute steal as the cap moves north of 120M.

 

[Hodge]

Miller doesn't have the skills needed to be an effective PP1. He's a shutdown guy and that guy anchoring a shutdown pairing with questionable decision-making is not what the Sharks really need at this point.

How many defensemen without offensive skill put up 40 even strength points in a season? We don't know how he would perform on the power play because he's never been given the opportunity but he certainly has the requisite skills to help with zone entries and get the puck on net. Sharks PP is gonna be run through Celebrini and Smith for the next decade anyway.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Burns was so awful at playing defense when we acquired him that he was literally converted to forward. He never really improved all that much even when he was shifted back. Miller is much better defensively than Burns was at the same age and he's still young enough to have untapped upside. We would be buying him at the lowest point in his value and if that 6x6.5M projection from AFP is accurate it has the potential to be an absolute steal as the cap moves north of 120M.

Being better than Burns defensively at the same age is, as you said, not an accomplishment. Rangers fans for years have suggested converting Miller to forward because of poor defense, only to ultimately reject the idea because he’s not very good with the puck either. Burns was converted to forward briefly because he was THAT good offensively.

Burns was an elite defenseman because of his offense. Miller doesn’t have Burns’ shot, vision, hands, physicality, or puck-carrying ability—basically not a single one of Burns’ calling cards. If you’re arguing that Miller might have things just “click” for him at age 30 like Burns did, you’re fighting big odds. The vastly more likely scenario is that Miller continues to just be a guy who’s big (but not remotely physical) and skates well (but doesn’t do much with it). Decent middle-pairing defenseman.

We shouldn’t be spending assets on guys who don’t have a long-term future here unless they’re great development fits. Miller isn’t that. If I thought he was a legit #2 defenseman who could do spot duty as a #1 and not look awful (which is what Burns was when we acquired him), then I would see your point. But I don’t think, nor does anyone else I’ve seen think, that Miller is that guy.

 

[Hodge]

Being better than Burns defensively at the same age is, as you said, not an accomplishment. Rangers fans for years have suggested converting Miller to forward because of poor defense, only to ultimately reject the idea because he’s not very good with the puck either. Burns was converted to forward briefly because he was THAT good offensively.

Burns was an elite defenseman because of his offense. Miller doesn’t have Burns’ shot, vision, hands, physicality, or puck-carrying ability—basically not a single one of Burns’ calling cards. If you’re arguing that Miller might have things just “click” for him at age 30 like Burns did, you’re fighting big odds. The vastly more likely scenario is that Miller continues to just be a guy who’s big (but not remotely physical) and skates well (but doesn’t do much with it). Decent middle-pairing defenseman.

We shouldn’t be spending assets on guys who don’t have a long-term future here unless they’re great development fits. Miller isn’t that. If I thought he was a legit #2 defenseman who could do spot duty as a #1 and not look awful (which is what Burns was when we acquired him), then I would see your point. But I don’t think, nor does anyone else I’ve seen think, that Miller is that guy.

Even if Miller is "just" a #3 defenseman why wouldn't you give up second-tier assets (presumably none of Celebrini, Smith, Eklund, Dickinson, Askarov or our own future 1sts will be necessary) in order to lock him up for his entire prime at 6-7M AAV? He doesn't need to solve all of our problems on defense in order to be extremely valuable to this core's growth into a competitive team over the next 5 years. I just don't see many superior options out there.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Even if Miller is "just" a #3 defenseman why wouldn't you give up second-tier assets (presumably none of Celebrini, Smith, Eklund, Dickinson, Askarov or our own future 1sts will be necessary) in order to lock him up for his entire prime at 6-7M AAV? He doesn't need to solve all of our problems on defense in order to be extremely valuable to this core's growth into a competitive team over the next 5 years. I just don't see many superior options out there.

I could see Miller as an upgrade on Ferraro who could go to NY in that deal. I think something built around Miller and Krieder for Ferraro + 2nd would work for both teams.

Miller - Muk would be an insane pairing of length and skating that could really blossom into a shutdown pairing.

 

[Hodge]

I could see Miller as an upgrade on Ferraro who could go to NY in that deal. I think something built around Miller and Krieder for Ferraro + 2nd would work for both teams.

Miller - Muk would be an insane pairing of length and skating that could really blossom into a shutdown pairing.

I was thinking the same thing, although we'll probably have to attach more than a 2nd. I'd go as high as the Dallas or Edmonton 1st, our 2026 2nd, Ferraro and NYR's choice of Musty, Bystedt or Halttunen for KAM and Kreider.

If Dickinson and Mukh develop the way we hope then those two and Miller would be a terrific foundation for a defense corps whether they're all on separate pairings or Mukh stays on the right side.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Even if Miller is "just" a #3 defenseman why wouldn't you give up second-tier assets (presumably none of Celebrini, Smith, Eklund, Dickinson, Askarov or our own future 1sts will be necessary) in order to lock him up for his entire prime at 6-7M AAV? He doesn't need to solve all of our problems on defense in order to be extremely valuable to this core's growth into a competitive team over the next 5 years. I just don't see many superior options out there.

Paying a guy who is not a top pairing defenseman and whose highs and lows are extreme (aka the player is inconsistent to the point where he alone can lose you a game at his worst) long-term doesn’t jive with my team-building philosophy, no. Especially since he’s a lefty. Left-handed middle pairing defensemen literally are a dime a dozen, just look at Jake Walman.

 

[gaucholoco3]

I was thinking the same thing, although we'll probably have to attach more than a 2nd. I'd go as high as the Dallas or Edmonton 1st, our 2026 2nd, Ferraro and NYR's choice of Musty, Bystedt or Halttunen for KAM and Kreider.

If Dickinson and Mukh develop the way we hope then those two and Miller would be a terrific foundation for a defense corps whether they're all on separate pairings or Mukh stays on the right side.

Would you still target Miller if Schaefer drops to #2?

I think he still would have value but it’s a little more redundant.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

How many defensemen without offensive skill put up 40 even strength points in a season? We don't know how he would perform on the power play because he's never been given the opportunity but he certainly has the requisite skills to help with zone entries and get the puck on net. Sharks PP is gonna be run through Celebrini and Smith for the next decade anyway.

Well, Miller isn't one of them so that's not much of a point. I don't believe he has the requisite skills to help with zone entries and get the puck on the net anymore than anybody else we could bring in. Our zone entries are going to be predominantly done by Celebrini. All someone like Miller is going to do is carry it to the neutral zone and drop it off. If we're trying to max out Celebrini in that situation, the best get is a right-handed trigger from the point.

 

[Hodge]

Would you still target Miller if Schaefer drops to #2?

I think he still would have value but it’s a little more redundant.

Probably not tbh. We should probably wait until after we make that selection to decide whether or not to acquire him (or someone like Byram, etc.) but Grier's hand may be forced if other teams start tabling serious offers at the combine.

Well, Miller isn't one of them so that's not much of a point. I don't believe he has the requisite skills to help with zone entries and get the puck on the net anymore than anybody else we could bring in. Our zone entries are going to be predominantly done by Celebrini. All someone like Miller is going to do is carry it to the neutral zone and drop it off. If we're trying to max out Celebrini in that situation, the best get is a right-handed trigger from the point.

Miller scored 40 even strength points in 2022-23. He is 18th in even strength scoring among all NHL defensemen over the last three seasons.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Probably not tbh. We should probably wait until after we make that selection to decide whether or not to acquire him (or someone like Byram, etc.) but Grier's hand may be forced if other teams start tabling serious offers at the combine.


Miller scored 40 even strength points in 2022-23. He is 18th in even strength scoring among all NHL defensemen over the last three seasons.

He did not. He scored 38. And if you just use the past two seasons, he drops to 36th. That's hardly an indicator of much in this discussion.

 

[Hodge]

He did not. He scored 38. And if you just use the past two seasons, he drops to 36th. That's hardly an indicator of much in this discussion.

So still clear top pairing even strength production then?

 

[tiburon12]

Why isn’t it on the player for stagnating in some areas and declining in some others? Just seems like making excuses to me. He’s part of the reason that team is broken because he hasn’t made improvements in his game since his 40+ point season.

It's probably a column A / column B situation, which makes him a great target for a fresh start. Distressed asset or whatever it's called.

I'll admit i;m infatuated with the physical skills. You can't teach that, but you can teach responsibility and defense.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Well, Miller isn't one of them so that's not much of a point. I don't believe he has the requisite skills to help with zone entries and get the puck on the net anymore than anybody else we could bring in. Our zone entries are going to be predominantly done by Celebrini. All someone like Miller is going to do is carry it to the neutral zone and drop it off. If we're trying to max out Celebrini in that situation, the best get is a right-handed trigger from the point.

Marner? Ekblad?

 

[Hodge]

It's probably a column A / column B situation, which makes him a great target for a fresh start. Distressed asset or whatever it's called.

I'll admit i;m infatuated with the physical skills. You can't teach that, but you can teach responsibility and defense.

Exactly. If you don't trust your coaching and development staff to get more out of a 25 year old defenseman with these tools what are we even doing here?

 

[TheBeard]

Which is a great bonus but also one the least important skills for a defenseman.

KAM has been stuck behind Adam Fox in New York. Let him run our PP1 and I think he's easily a 50+ point guy.

Walman was easily a 50+ point guy running our PP1. Maybe we should bring him back.