Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Star Platinum]

Speaking of management, Seravalli reported LA Kings ownership offered Rob Blake a contract extension but he hasn't signed it.

If you're Hasso would you bring Blake in as President of Hockey Ops with Grier reporting to him?

Good god, no

 

[tiburon12]

not sure where to put this, but because it's the offseason this thread will do.

Athletic Dom put out a top-10 F and D by projected net rating for each season from 07-08 -> this year. (more years in reply'd tweets)



My thoughts:

• Sucks we dont get Jumbo's Hart season on here, but oh well
• Dan Boyle was a top-5 dman in the league while on the Sharks
• No Dman in the cap era had as strong of a defensive season as Vlasic did in 13-14
• Karlsson was not a top-10 dman during his Norris season, but was the next season in Pit?
• The 2019 team should have won
• Joe Pavelski rocks and we were lucky that he matured into what he did

 

[Hodge]

When Gavrikov walks in UFA and Kopitar declines, which may well be as soon as literally next year, the Kings will lose their two best players. According to you yourself, Clarke is a worthless offenseman, so why are the Canucks taking him as the main piece for Petterson? Turcotte is beyond worthless, an undersized and injury-prone 24 year old forward with 29 career NHL points to his name. As always, your praise of Blake is that he has the "flexibility" to, what, sign a bunch of free agents? His "tradable assets" include literally one single half-decent prospect in Greentree, who is just Musty with a different coat of paint. There is quite literally nothing worthwhile in that whole organization outside of Byfield and Kempe, and Byfield still can't seem to decide if he wants to be a bust or a superstar.

I would be one million dollars that the Kings do not make the WCF in the next three years.

Byfield, Clarke, Laferriere, Greentree, George, Turcotte, Kempe, Spence, Anderson (top 10 contract in the league?) and future 1sts are all tradable assets with varying levels of value around the league. They can put together a package using those assets to acquire just about anyone who could conceivably become available on the trade market.

There's also a huge difference between a team like the Sharks or Blackhawks having cap flexibility and a team like LA - which just finished 6th overall in league standings - having cap flexibility. LA is already a playoff lock and outer-circle contender that projects to have $50 million in cap space in 2026-27 with the majority of their roster already signed. McDavid, Eichel and Kaprizov are all legitimate targets for the Kings in a way they will never be for smaller markets or even destination cities that haven't managed their cap space as carefully.

The original PLD trade is still lost value. Who else could have been acquired for the package paid for him? Goalies are voodoo and the Kuemper trade was seen as a contract bail out at the time. Kings got lucky they didn't lose more.



That could work but who is playing defense? I don't believe Byfield will ever be the guy, His physical tools are incredible but his decision making is absolutely mind boggling at times. At least for forwards, if you get a top 5 pick and he doesn't show you that he can be a top 50 player after two years in the show, you have to consider moving him. Not getting a franchise player (or package) for a top 5 pick is crippling.

The Kings best route could have been to trade Byfield for an elite defenseman and acquire a different top line forward in place of PLD. Could they have added more to the PLD package and acquired Rantanen? LA has also proven to be a free agent destination (the wonders that being a winner can do for you) so maybe someone like Marner could be added later?



They're going to turn into a new version of Calgary or pre-Kaprizov Minnesota barring significant moves. Sniffing the playoffs but never able to do much more.

The original PLD trade was damaged goods Vilardi, negative value cap dump Iafallo, Kupari the bust and a late 2nd round pick. Vilardi only established himself after he got to Winnipeg so that's barely any value going out at all. If not for PLD informing the Jets he would never sign with them long term there's no chance LA would have even been able to acquire him with such an insignificant package, let alone someone better. If anything, the Jets are lucky Vilardi has managed to stay relatively healthy and been a perfect fit on their power play or else they'd have nothing to show for PLD and the Laine+Roslovic price they paid to get him.

We don't know what the Kings are going to turn into post-Kopitar because we don't know how they're going to spend their mountains of cap space. This is not a serious consideration for teams/cities nobody wants to play for like Calgary and Minnesota but it is for LA.

You don't need to jump to silly conclusions. The point is that you can make an argument for Yzerman being bad as a GM, just as easily as you can that he's good as a GM. With Grier, I think he needs more time before we can fairly assess him.

Yzerman has been on the job exactly 3 years longer than Grier. I hate to break it to you but the Sharks will need to get enormously lucky just to become a 85-90 point fringe playoff team by 2027. If we're not a playoff team in 3 years, or even fall short of what the Red Wings have accomplished, it won't be because Grier did a bad job. For both GMs, a ~decade of futility was already pretty much baked in thanks to the incompetence of their dumbass predecessor.

 

[Star Platinum]

Yzerman has been on the job exactly 3 years longer than Grier. I hate to break it to you but the Sharks will need to get enormously lucky just to become a 85-90 point fringe playoff team by 2027. If we're not a playoff team in 3 years, or even fall short of what the Red Wings have accomplished, it won't be because Grier did a bad job. For both GMs, a ~decade of futility was already pretty much baked in thanks to the incompetence of their dumbass predecessor.

It's not going to take a decade to get the Sharks back in the playoffs if Grier does his job correctly. Almost all the hard to acquire pieces are in place. Just need to put a team around them and wait for them to mature.

 

[weastern bias]

• Karlsson was not a top-10 dman during his Norris season, but was the next season in Pit?

I don't often agree with the conclusions pulled from Dom's models, but this one is just true

Karlsson wasn't playing hockey in 2023, he was playing pinball, his whole aim was to rack up points and get out of town, it kind of gets overlooked that he was the single worst defensive defenseman in the league at the time because he scored so many points

 

[Lebanezer]

Byfield, Clarke, Laferriere, Greentree, George, Turcotte, Kempe, Spence, Anderson (top 10 contract in the league?) and future 1sts are all tradable assets with varying levels of value around the league. They can put together a package using those assets to acquire just about anyone who could conceivably become available on the trade market.

There's also a huge difference between a team like the Sharks or Blackhawks having cap flexibility and a team like LA - which just finished 6th overall in league standings - having cap flexibility. LA is already a playoff lock and outer-circle contender that projects to have $50 million in cap space in 2026-27 with the majority of their roster already signed. McDavid, Eichel and Kaprizov are all legitimate targets for the Kings in a way they will never be for smaller markets or even destination cities that haven't managed their cap space as carefully.


The original PLD trade was damaged goods Vilardi, negative value cap dump Iafallo, Kupari the bust and a late 2nd round pick. Vilardi only established himself after he got to Winnipeg so that's barely any value going out at all. If not for PLD informing the Jets he would never sign with them long term there's no chance LA would have even been able to acquire him with such an insignificant package, let alone someone better. If anything, the Jets are lucky Vilardi has managed to stay relatively healthy and been a perfect fit on their power play or else they'd have nothing to show for PLD and the Laine+Roslovic price they paid to get him.

We don't know what the Kings are going to turn into post-Kopitar because we don't know how they're going to spend their mountains of cap space. This is not a serious consideration for teams/cities nobody wants to play for like Calgary and Minnesota but it is for LA.


Yzerman has been on the job exactly 3 years longer than Grier. I hate to break it to you but the Sharks will need to get enormously lucky just to become a 85-90 point fringe playoff team by 2027. If we're not a playoff team in 3 years, or even fall short of what the Red Wings have accomplished, it won't be because Grier did a bad job. For both GMs, a ~decade of futility was already pretty much baked in thanks to the incompetence of their dumbass predecessor.

Yzerman has been a GM for 15 years. Not sure why you’re deviating from the only point we were discussing.

 

[Hodge]

Yzerman has been a GM for 15 years. Not sure why you’re deviating from the only point we were discussing.

My bad, I didn't realize anyone would actually have a bone to pick with Yzerman's tenure in Tampa where he took over one of the biggest laughing stock franchises in the league and turned them into a team that went to 4 SCFs and won 2 chips in 8 years. And no, the fact he inherited Stamkos and Hedman doesn't take away from that accomplishment because negotiating team-friendly UFA contracts with both players was a huge reason for the Lightning's success.

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

For the discussion on Rob Blake as a GM, you might want to talk to some Kings fans (I know, "shudder"). When the Athletic ran their reader poll on NHL front offices, every Kings fan who responded gave Blake an F. The consistency was quite striking.

 

[Saskatoon]

not sure where to put this, but because it's the offseason this thread will do.

Athletic Dom put out a top-10 F and D by projected net rating for each season from 07-08 -> this year. (more years in reply'd tweets)



My thoughts:

• Sucks we dont get Jumbo's Hart season on here, but oh well
• Dan Boyle was a top-5 dman in the league while on the Sharks
• No Dman in the cap era had as strong of a defensive season as Vlasic did in 13-14
• Karlsson was not a top-10 dman during his Norris season, but was the next season in Pit?
• The 2019 team should have won
• Joe Pavelski rocks and we were lucky that he matured into what he did

Injuries might still have done us in by yea 2019 was a good team minus goaltending

I remember that year clamoring for just some average goalie upgrade. Some meh journyman would have been better than what Jones was giving us that year.

 

[Lebanezer]

My bad, I didn't realize anyone would actually have a bone to pick with Yzerman's tenure in Tampa where he took over one of the biggest laughing stock franchises in the league and turned them into a team that went to 4 SCFs and won 2 chips in 8 years. And no, the fact he inherited Stamkos and Hedman doesn't take away from that accomplishment because negotiating team-friendly UFA contracts with both players was a huge reason for the Lightning's success.

You make the craziest leaps about everything. Stay on topic. I'm not even the one arguing the Yzerman was a bad GM, simply pointing out that you can make that argument.

 

[Hodge]

You make the craziest leaps about everything. Stay on topic. I'm not even the one arguing the Yzerman was a bad GM, simply pointing out that you can make that argument.

You haven't made the argument because pretending Yzerman had nothing to do with the back to back championships Tampa won immediately after he resigned and was replaced by his protege is not a real argument.

 

[jarr92]

You haven't made the argument because pretending Yzerman had nothing to do with the back to back championships Tampa won immediately after he resigned and was replaced by his protege is not a real argument.

Yeah I agree the Sharks should definitely look to emulate Detroit and LA with their rebuild since it's clearly going super well for both franchises. Does Blake have a son to run the scouting department as well?

 

[Hodge]

Yeah I agree the Sharks should definitely look to emulate Detroit and LA with their rebuild since it's clearly going super well for both franchises. Does Blake have a son to run the scouting department as well?

If Grier follows the Detroit Yzerman trajectory and has us in 90 point playoff bubble range by Year 5 (which would be 2026-27) I think that would be a terrific outcome. Don't you? Our ceiling is higher because we have Mack and they don't but it's difficult to criticize Yzerman too harshly for failing to win a draft lottery.

Anyway the argument was never that the Sharks should emulate Detroit, just that Yzerman isn't a complete dumbass who traded Walman for no reason. Blake has taken the Kings from a graveyard of albatross contracts to a perennial playoff team without a single bad long term contract on the books. Every team situation is different and you have to evaluate managers in light of their constraints.

 

[WSS11]

Yeah, Kings fans seem to love Blake. Let’s bring him in and give him a promotion to boot. Let’s me guess Hodge, you know better than the Kings fan base does?

 

[Hodge]

Yeah, Kings fans seem to love Blake. Let’s bring him in and give him a promotion to boot. Let’s me guess Hodge, you know better than the Kings fan base does?

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Wow, fans of a sports team are extremely angry, emotional and out for blood hours after being eliminated by the same opponent in the first round of the playoffs for a fourth consecutive season? I'll alert the press.

 

[WSS11]

Wow, fans of a sports team are extremely angry, emotional and out for blood hours after being eliminated by the same opponent in the first round of the playoffs for a fourth consecutive season? I'll alert the press.

Except they’ve been consistent with their opinion of Blake throughout the entire year for multiple years. I’m pretty sure Kings fans have a firmer grasp on their team/organization than you do.

 

[Hodge]

Except they’ve been consistent with their opinion of Blake throughout the entire year for multiple years. I’m pretty sure Kings fans have a firmer grasp on their team/organization than you do.

I'm pretty sure they don't and it has nothing to do with them or me. Fans in general are incapable of being objective about their own team and that cuts both ways - they tend to be too pessimistic when the team is good and too optimistic when the team is bad. Most of them are too close to the situation to see it clearly.

 

[Gecklund]

NYR has about 8.5M in space to resign Cuylle, Miller, and a few others. I wonder if we could offer sheet at around 4.5 for one of those. That would be 2nd price range and might be hard to match.

 

[coooldude]

NYR has about 8.5M in space to resign Cuylle, Miller, and a few others. I wonder if we could offer sheet at around 4.5 for one of those. That would be 2nd price range and might be hard to match.

Yes, but us and everyone else. FWIW i think I remember Grier mentioning he wasn't too focused on offer sheets this year? We'll see.

 

[coooldude]

I don't often agree with the conclusions pulled from Dom's models, but this one is just true

Karlsson wasn't playing hockey in 2023, he was playing pinball, his whole aim was to rack up points and get out of town, it kind of gets overlooked that he was the single worst defensive defenseman in the league at the time because he scored so many points

View attachment 1028079

God, what incredible fortune to be able to move him for a package that netted us (with help) Dickinson, and 1.7 seasons of Granlund then a DAL first. Happy to see the back of him. When we signed his contract in 2019 I knew we'd be pretenders. PIT fans I talk to can't wait to see him leave as well. Sorry to those who are fans, I'm just a hater.

 

[Juxtaposer]

God, what incredible fortune to be able to move him for a package that netted us (with help) Dickinson, and 1.7 seasons of Granlund then a DAL first. Happy to see the back of him. When we signed his contract in 2019 I knew we'd be pretenders. PIT fans I talk to can't wait to see him leave as well. Sorry to those who are fans, I'm just a hater.

Nah, I'll never hate Karl. While I get the criticisms and am glad that we moved him for what we did, he was literally the only thing worth watching for multiple years here.

 

[weastern bias]

God, what incredible fortune to be able to move him for a package that netted us (with help) Dickinson, and 1.7 seasons of Granlund then a DAL first. Happy to see the back of him. When we signed his contract in 2019 I knew we'd be pretenders. PIT fans I talk to can't wait to see him leave as well. Sorry to those who are fans, I'm just a hater.

Mike Grier flipped the depressed assets of Erik Karlsson and Timo Meier into 3 1st round picks and a 2nd which was re-invested into the best D prospect in the organization

Well, better push him aside to hire a guy who is maligned by his own fanbase and has never won a playoff round after inheriting multiple future hall of famers and decided to compete instead of rebuild, I bet that would go great

 

[Hodge]

Well, better push him aside to hire a guy who is maligned by his own fanbase and has never won a playoff round after inheriting multiple future hall of famers and decided to compete instead of rebuild, I bet that would go great

For the record I never said I would hire Blake as POHO. Just wanted to see what everyone else thought about it.

 

[Gecklund]

Yes, but us and everyone else. FWIW i think I remember Grier mentioning he wasn't too focused on offer sheets this year? We'll see.

Oh absolutely but I think we can offer a bigger role than most other teams. Also maybe we do something shorter term and say if you succeed in this bigger role you will get paid. I dunno it’s probably unlikely and like honestly with the cap rising some of these contracts have been ROUGH.

 

[coooldude]

Nah, I'll never hate Karl. While I get the criticisms and am glad that we moved him for what we did, he was literally the only thing worth watching for multiple years here.

I get it, I just hate players who take no accountability and skate by on talent. Maybe I'm wrong about him and how he was in the room, but I've never seen Karl play for, or stand up for, anything other than himself.