Speculation: - 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion | Page 593 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

We just need people to not hold grudges or whatever you want to call it against players that leave for whatever reason. That's all.
I mean Walman doesn’t really deserve a grudge. He returned a first for us from a team that’s a ticking time bomb. What happens if McDavid says nope not resigning or Bouchard gets moved or they don’t fix their goaltending? They could easily fall out of the playoffs.
 
He DID build the best team of the entire salary cap era in Tampa Bay and doesn't get credit for it because he left right before they won the cup, he's the Dale Tallon to BriseBois' San Bowman, so I think he's proven to actually be quite capable, but that team was built slowly over the course of a decade, the Red Wings' organization handcuffed Yzerman and now he's left looking like a failure due to some things out of his control
Except he wasn’t the one who drafted Hedman and Stammer.
 
Except he wasn’t the one who drafted Hedman and Stammer.
He wasn't, but he was the one who oversaw their entire window of contention

Samkos and Hedman were the #1 and #2 picks in their drafts, picking them wasn't exactly rocket science, but when Yzerman got there he immediately helped turn them from a lottery team into a team that was one one-goal game away from the finals

Yzerman built that team
 
I mean Walman doesn’t really deserve a grudge. He returned a first for us from a team that’s a ticking time bomb. What happens if McDavid says nope not resigning or Bouchard gets moved or they don’t fix their goaltending? They could easily fall out of the playoffs.
That's a reasonable question but it doesn't even matter in this instance. We were paid to take him so that on its own should be enough to be okay with whatever he brought. He brought a defenseman that at least mirrored the skills of a defensemen our young players need to learn to play with which isn't nothing even if it isn't much. He then returned a 1st round pick. Even if that pick is 32 in 2026, it's a very useful asset for the rebuild. Walman checked every box you could hope for as an acquisition for a rebuilding team. He doesn't need an after-the-fact justification for getting rid of him.
 
Yzerman's real mistake was trying to accelerate their rebuild in the exact way I've argued Grier should not

He overpaid to bring in "win now" veteran players but all he did was work himself into being a bubble playoff team with overpaid players who aren't good enough to actually help the team win at a high level

The contacts he gave out to Copp, Compher, Chiarot and Holl are crippling, every one of those players is useful and has a utility but by overpaying them in free agency he's locked his team away from ever being truly competitive at a high level

He needed to keep the tank years rolling so he could actually secure a #1 center, his team is built around one good defenseman, a 28 year old 1B center and one good goal scoring winger, that isn't close to a winning formula in the short or long term, the Illich family got impatient and he was forced to ruin their team build to satisfy ownership, he's made some crushing mistakes but I don't completely blame him for it

He DID build the best team of the entire salary cap era in Tampa Bay and doesn't get credit for it because he left right before they won the cup, he's the Dale Tallon to BriseBois' San Bowman, so I think he's proven to actually be quite capable, but that team was built slowly over the course of a decade, the Red Wings' organization handcuffed Yzerman and now he's left looking like a failure due to some things out of his control
This is like saying Grier "accelerated" our rebuild by acquiring Toffoli, Wennberg, Walman and Ceci. Yzerman and Grier brought their respective veteran plugs in for the same reason: to eat NHL minutes so that prospects don't have to. None of the contracts Yzerman signed his free agents to have prevented him from making other moves. They're also all on eminently tradable contracts, not 7 or 8 year deals with NMCs.

I agree Yzerman needed to keep the tank going for longer which is why his biggest mistake was actually extending Larkin and trading for DeBrincat instead of trading Larkin in 2023 and pivoting harder into tank mode after repeatedly failing to secure a top 3 pick. Grier wisely got rid of every vet with any shred of trade value and has avoided trading futures for a win now piece like DeBrincat. But A) like you said, this can probably be blamed on meddling ownership and B) even those mistakes are correctable: trading DeBrincat can probably still recoup what they paid to get him and Larkin has a full NTC but not a NMC so Yzerman can threaten to waive him if he doesn't accept a trade.

Meanwhile he has hit on every high pick of the rebuild despite zero lottery luck. Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson and Kasper all look amazing and most importantly look like players you can win with unlike the smurf brigade Montreal is trying to build around. Cossa is still on track to be goalie of the future. They need a 1C and may have missed their window to find one in the draft so another thing you can criticize Yzerman for is not swinging for Eichel but he wasn't the only GM scared off by the neck injury. If he thinks Elias Pettersson can be salvaged, the Wings will have the assets and cap space to acquire him before his NTC kicks in.

Considering Holland left him a hot mess contractually and in the cupboards, no prominent free agent wants to sign in Detroit if they have other options and they got boned in the 2020 lottery, Yzerman has done as good a job as anyone should reasonably expect.
 
This is like saying Grier "accelerated" our rebuild by acquiring Toffoli, Wennberg, Walman and Ceci. Yzerman and Grier brought their respective veteran plugs in for the same reason: to eat NHL minutes so that prospects don't have to. None of the contracts Yzerman signed his free agents to have prevented him from making other moves. They're also all on eminently tradable contracts, not 7 or 8 year deals with NMCs.
This just isn't true, the teams were in completely different environments when those contracts were signed, both in terms of organizational planning and in terms of the salary cap

The Wings were trying to add NHL players to their roster to improve the W/L column, which they did, but arguably to their detriment as they are still not a playoff team but no longer secure a premium draft pick, meanwhile they only have $2M in cap space so they have limitations on how they can actually improve their team in the short term

The Sharks wanted to prevent a need to play undercooked prospects like Musty and Dickinson out of necessity and added players who would allow them to sacrifice disposable veterans to a tank squad so they can keep building through draft picks in the long term, meanwhile they still have to spend $20M dollars just to reach the salary floor

The edict is likely looming, ownership will grow impatient and will probably force Grier to make an aggressive acquisition at some point in an attempt to improve the on-ice results, but that isn't the reason we signed Tyler Toffoli, though it was the reason the Wings signed Andrew Copp, the teams are not running on parallel paths right now
 
I agree Yzerman’s done an incredible job. All their picks have been the right guy or very close. However, they’ve gotten destroyed in the lottery. Hopefully they win it this year and jump up 10 spots, pushing Chicago back!

His bottom/middle of the lineup are even worse than Grier’s in my eyes, but done for the same reason. With minimal cap space, can I steal a few people to play above their previous level. His mistake was paying them more. Aside from Goody, we’ve spent nickels, not quarters.

My ideal scenario is Detroit and CBJ win, so it’s 1. SJ 2. Detroit 3. CBJ 4. Chicago 5. Nash 6. Boston

This will also prevent the Wings fans from complaining (rightly) about their lack of lotto luck. Believe they’re the only team to drop four spots.
 
This just isn't true, the teams were in completely different environments when those contracts were signed, both in terms of organizational planning and in terms of the salary cap

The Wings were trying to add NHL players to their roster to improve the W/L column, which they did, but arguably to their detriment as they are still not a playoff team but no longer secure a premium draft pick, meanwhile they only have $2M in cap space so they have limitations on how they can actually improve their team in the short term

The Sharks wanted to prevent a need to play undercooked prospects like Musty and Dickinson out of necessity and added players who would allow them to sacrifice disposable veterans to a tank squad so they can keep building through draft picks in the long term, meanwhile they still have to spend $20M dollars just to reach the salary floor

The edict is likely looming, ownership will grow impatient and will probably force Grier to make an aggressive acquisition at some point in an attempt to improve the on-ice results, but that isn't the reason we signed Tyler Toffoli, though it was the reason the Wings signed Andrew Copp, the teams are not running on parallel paths right now
You must have an extremely inflated opinion of Copp, Compher, Chiarot and Holl if you think adding those guys is the reason the Wings are no longer in premium draft pick territory. Especially since the Wings picked 8th overall right before they went on their first free agent spending spree under Yzerman then picked 9th overall the following year. Those guys were just veteran placeholders which every rebuilding team needs after the GM goes scorched earth on the vets he inherited.

Holding onto Larkin, trading for DeBrincat and parachuting guys like Talbot and Lyon and Reimer into the crease rather than letting Husso stink up the joint en route to a top 3 pick have been Yzerman's major errors in judgment but these are all somewhat correctable beyond having already missed out on better lottery odds in 2023 and 2024.
 
Speaking of management, Seravalli reported LA Kings ownership offered Rob Blake a contract extension but he hasn't signed it.

If you're Hasso would you bring Blake in as President of Hockey Ops with Grier reporting to him?
 
Speaking of management, Seravalli reported LA Kings ownership offered Rob Blake a contract extension but he hasn't signed it.

If you're Hasso would you bring Blake in as President of Hockey Ops with Grier reporting to him?
I don't think you make a move like that now. A guy coming into that role will typically (even if not immediately) want to change things to his likeness, and it would feel like a demotion for Grier since he'd no longer be in charge. And at this point, for better or for worse, he hasn't had the chance to properly build the team so it would be quite a slap in the face, imo.
 
Speaking of management, Seravalli reported LA Kings ownership offered Rob Blake a contract extension but he hasn't signed it.

If you're Hasso would you bring Blake in as President of Hockey Ops with Grier reporting to him?
No, but Chicago might consider canning Davidson and bringing Blake in.

Grier's crushed it, no need to demote him.
 
Speaking of management, Seravalli reported LA Kings ownership offered Rob Blake a contract extension but he hasn't signed it.

If you're Hasso would you bring Blake in as President of Hockey Ops with Grier reporting to him?
Forget Yzerman, Blake has turned the Kings into the most "no-man's-land first round fodder" team of all time, no thank you
 
You must have an extremely inflated opinion of Copp, Compher, Chiarot and Holl if you think adding those guys is the reason the Wings are no longer in premium draft pick territory. Especially since the Wings picked 8th overall right before they went on their first free agent spending spree under Yzerman then picked 9th overall the following year. Those guys were just veteran placeholders which every rebuilding team needs after the GM goes scorched earth on the vets he inherited.

Holding onto Larkin, trading for DeBrincat and parachuting guys like Talbot and Lyon and Reimer into the crease rather than letting Husso stink up the joint en route to a top 3 pick have been Yzerman's major errors in judgment but these are all somewhat correctable beyond having already missed out on better lottery odds in 2023 and 2024.

I don’t think ditching Larkin was ever viable. He's a Detroit native, went to Michigan, and is their captain. He's a several years older than you'd ideally want for their refresh, but the amount of destruction removing him would create isn't worth it. A guy who lives and breathes a franchise being moved out in his prime isn’t good for business.

We’re agreed he shouldn’t have gone for Debrincat (who I think specifically wanted to go to Detroit as well), but Larkin is the ideal guy to shepherd a rebuild, seems like a good culture guy, and like Celebrini, is the type of player who can play any system.

This isn’t a Trouba situation where the guy you want to move out isn’t close to worth his contract, nor is he on his last legs.

W Bias, it’ll be interesting to see what happens with LA after Doyghty and Kopitar retire. They’re still elite players but the fall off is going to be hard. Kempe and Byfeld are very good, but neither is replacing Kopitar. Clarke is nowhere near Doughty. If Gavrikov gets out they could be on the verge of collapse. Can we grab one of their future firsts somehow?
 
Speaking of management, Seravalli reported LA Kings ownership offered Rob Blake a contract extension but he hasn't signed it.

If you're Hasso would you bring Blake in as President of Hockey Ops with Grier reporting to him?

I’m admittedly not super in-the-know on LA; but has Blake accomplished something there that merits a promotion?

I’m under the impression that LA has solidly underperformed expectations and failing to get out of the first round 4 times (5th incoming?) isn’t much of a an accomplishment from a GM perspective.
 
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Speaking of management, Seravalli reported LA Kings ownership offered Rob Blake a contract extension but he hasn't signed it.

If you're Hasso would you bring Blake in as President of Hockey Ops with Grier reporting to him?
Why? Blake hasn't proven to be a worthwhile voice in hockey ops.
 
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I don't think you make a move like that now. A guy coming into that role will typically (even if not immediately) want to change things to his likeness, and it would feel like a demotion for Grier since he'd no longer be in charge. And at this point, for better or for worse, he hasn't had the chance to properly build the team so it would be quite a slap in the face, imo.
No, but Chicago might consider canning Davidson and bringing Blake in.

Grier's crushed it, no need to demote him.
Yeah it would have to be something Grier is on board with (or at least doesn't threaten to quit over) but it wouldn't be a demotion per se, more of a Sakic/MacFarland situation.

Forget Yzerman, Blake has turned the Kings into the most "no-man's-land first round fodder" team of all time, no thank you
I’m admittedly not super in-the-know on LA; but has Blake accomplished something there that merits a promotion?

I’m under the impression that LA has solidly underperformed expectations and failing to get out of the first round 4 times (5th incoming?) isn’t much of a an accomplishment from a GM perspective.
Blake retooled a horrible cap situation and declining roster with no valuable trade chips except for Kopitar and Doughty (who he was basically not allowed to trade) into a perennial playoff team within 3 years. Assuming there was never going to be a proper scorched earth rebuild in LA, I don't know who would have done a better job. I don't see Zito or Brisebois or McCrimmon becoming available anytime soon.
 
Wouldn’t Rob Blake as President of Hockey Opps be replacing Jonathan Becher more than replacing Grier?
No, Becher is the President of the parent company. The Sharks don’t technically have a President of Hockey Ops currently which basically means that Grier is that guy. I don’t see a reason to bring in someone for him to report to as GM.
 
Yeah it would have to be something Grier is on board with (or at least doesn't threaten to quit over) but it wouldn't be a demotion per se, more of a Sakic/MacFarland situation.



Blake retooled a horrible cap situation and declining roster with no valuable trade chips except for Kopitar and Doughty (who he was basically not allowed to trade) into a perennial playoff team within 3 years. Assuming there was never going to be a proper scorched earth rebuild in LA, I don't know who would have done a better job. I don't see Zito or Brisebois or McCrimmon becoming available anytime soon.
I could see Blake brought on as an advisor (and, if things don't go well enough, then promoted to GM or President), but that's it—and even that might signal a weird and unnecessary kind of pressure on Grier which isn't deserved at this point.

Blake did the best he could with that situation, in a way, but the whole thing shows the hazards of trying to hold on without rebuilding, just as we saw with the Sharks and we've seen with countless other teams in other sports. Their situation is kind of analogous to the Giants in baseball; both teams didn't exactly rebuild and got a #2 pick in a draft, though Byfield is better than Joey Bart was for the Giants and there were other moves on the margins that panned out better for the Kings, allowing them to maintain more success. But it feels like a period of deep mediocrity is still on the horizon for them, and Blake could end up paying the price for that like Zaidi did with the Giants, even if neither were/are exactly at fault for the bigger situation.
 
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Blake retooled a horrible cap situation and declining roster with no valuable trade chips except for Kopitar and Doughty (who he was basically not allowed to trade) into a perennial playoff team within 3 years. Assuming there was never going to be a proper scorched earth rebuild in LA, I don't know who would have done a better job. I don't see Zito or Brisebois or McCrimmon becoming available anytime soon.
He turned them into a treadmill team that will never accomplish anything

In this league you need to either win at the highest level or lose as hard as possible to reset through the draft, instead he's trying to "compete" and has won zero playoff series in 7 seasons and counting, he's accomplished nothing of note, Grier has literally been more successful in less than half the time by virtue of winning a draft lottery
 
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