Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

There's no way the Sharks will ever sign a premiere free agent like the Rangers can do. No one is going to force their way to the Sharks. I remember last year people drooling to sign Stamkos at an AAV above $10M. Yikes.

Homegrown talent is the key and that's what the Sharks are, hopefully, growing in bunches. It is not the time to overpay in a trade either. Nothing is going to quick fix this mess.
Overpaying right now is the right move so long as the term is short. 2-3 years max. It’s not like we need the cap room.
 
I think Grier has done an excellent job considering the absolute mess he inherited. Patience is key. Shipping of the likes of Karlsson and Hertl was something I thought wasn't even possible.

For example, Rangers got the #2 overall pick in 2019, while signing Panarin with Fox forcing his way there. Next summer, they got the #1 overall pick. Back then, I considered that quite the haul.

After that, they've made the Conference Finals twice and won the President's Trophy last year but missed the playoffs this one - something that shouldn't have happened. The thing is, no matter how lucky you get, you can still mess things up big time and not get the expected results. They shipped off Kakko and Lafrenière just posted 45 points in his 5th NHL season. The Rangers are sure as hell hoping things start going their way next year, especially with a $11.5M netminder turning 30 late this year and other stars getting older too.

There's no way the Sharks will ever sign a premiere free agent like the Rangers can do. No one is going to force their way to the Sharks. I remember last year people drooling to sign Stamkos at an AAV above $10M. Yikes.

Homegrown talent is the key and that's what the Sharks are, hopefully, growing in bunches. It is not the time to overpay in a trade either. Nothing is going to quick fix this mess.
Maybe this is a healthy dose of copium, but I can absolutely foresee veterans wanting to come play here. Despite the Sharks being pretty poor in UFA, we do for a fact that older players really like SJ (younger guys don't for the lack of party vibes) for the weather and family atmosphere and quality of org.

It's no secret that the Sharks are an org with a ton of potential in the system, with a great owner and seemingly a great GM. I think of a guy like Ondrej Palat, who got squeezed from Tampa and chose to go to NJD because of the promise and potential they had, and have to think that there will be players like that who want to be a leader and mentor for a really talented group of kids.

Now, whether it's smart for us to sign those veterans - and at what cost - is a different story. But i do think it could start happening as early as this summer.
 
After that, they've made the Conference Finals twice and won the President's Trophy last year but missed the playoffs this one - something that shouldn't have happened. The thing is, no matter how lucky you get, you can still mess things up big time and not get the expected results. They shipped off Kakko and Lafrenière just posted 45 points in his 5th NHL season. The Rangers are sure as hell hoping things start going their way next year, especially with a $11.5M netminder turning 30 late this year and other stars getting older too.
I think what doomed that rebuild from the start was that Kakko and Lafreniere just weren't that good. Neither prospect was highly hyped (even to the level of a Celebrini), and at the same time, the Rangers had to take them. It was the bad luck of the best pick at the wrong time.

Of course, the Rangers also benefited from having a franchise-caliber winger and defenseman just drop into their lap.
 
I think what doomed that rebuild from the start was that Kakko and Lafreniere just weren't that good. Neither prospect was highly hyped (even to the level of a Celebrini), and at the same time, the Rangers had to take them. It was the bad luck of the best pick at the wrong time.

Of course, the Rangers also benefited from having a franchise-caliber winger and defenseman just drop into their lap.
Kakko had 30 points in 49 games for the Kraken. The folks who wanted us to get in on that were right.
 
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Kakko had 30 points in 49 games for the Kraken, a pace that would have led our team in scoring. The folks who wanted us to get in on that were right.
I don't think we could get in on it, though—it seems the Rangers had a specific want in return (whether Borgen specifically or not, someone like him) and I don't think we had that on offer, unless they were high on Ferraro.
 
I have been thinking about the Dickinson conundrum (where should he play next year) and I think the move is to keep him in the OHL next year.
I don’t think you can shelter a defenseman like you can a forward making it hard to do what we did with will smith this year.
I am concerned if he is in the NHL next year he ends up like Korchinski in Chicago who was also a highly touted defense prospect who had a great D1 and was put in the NHL on a terrible team. Korchinski seems to have regressed substantially since then and lost a lot of confidence.
I think we should play it safe and keep Dickinson in the OHL another year.
 
I have been thinking about the Dickinson conundrum (where should he play next year) and I think the move is to keep him in the OHL next year.
I don’t think you can shelter a defenseman like you can a forward making it hard to do what we did with will smith this year.
I am concerned if he is in the NHL next year he ends up like Korchinski in Chicago who was also a highly touted defense prospect who had a great D1 and was put in the NHL on a terrible team. Korchinski seems to have regressed substantially since then and lost a lot of confidence.
I think we should play it safe and keep Dickinson in the OHL another year.
Thing is, Sharks are still gonna be terrible one year later. Are you suggesting the AHL route?
 
I have been thinking about the Dickinson conundrum (where should he play next year) and I think the move is to keep him in the OHL next year.
I don’t think you can shelter a defenseman like you can a forward making it hard to do what we did with will smith this year.
I am concerned if he is in the NHL next year he ends up like Korchinski in Chicago who was also a highly touted defense prospect who had a great D1 and was put in the NHL on a terrible team. Korchinski seems to have regressed substantially since then and lost a lot of confidence.
I think we should play it safe and keep Dickinson in the OHL another year.

I think you give him 9 games and see what he can do. If he’s holding his own, keep him, if he’s panicking then yeah, send him back.
 
Maybe this is a healthy dose of copium, but I can absolutely foresee veterans wanting to come play here. Despite the Sharks being pretty poor in UFA, we do for a fact that older players really like SJ (younger guys don't for the lack of party vibes) for the weather and family atmosphere and quality of org.
This is absolutely copium, vets and free agents do not want to come here

All players and agents see is a franchise that has a record of 61-148-37 over the last 3 years, no one cares that we have exciting young prospects, free agents look for money and winning, we simply do not offer them a winning situation and the biggest names will get plenty of money from much better teams with the cap going up
 
This is absolutely copium, vets and free agents do not want to come here

All players and agents see is a franchise that has a record of 61-148-37 over the last 3 years, no one cares that we have exciting young prospects, free agents look for money and winning, we simply do not offer them a winning situation and the biggest names will get plenty of money from much better teams with the cap going up
If I'm Mitch Marner (not advocating for him signing, just using him as an example), I see:
  • A complete-player #1C to ride shotgun with for the next 7 years
  • An organization with a rich history of trying to win
  • A fanbase that actually appreciates their players, win or lose
  • A break from the media
  • A place to raise his young family
  • A place that two of his mentors loved and currently "work" for
I think you're undervaluing some of the human element that SJ offers, probably about as much as I am overvaluing it :laugh:
 
If I'm Mitch Marner (not advocating for him signing, just using him as an example), I see:
  • A complete-player #1C to ride shotgun with for the next 7 years
  • An organization with a rich history of trying to win
  • A fanbase that actually appreciates their players, win or lose
  • A break from the media
  • A place to raise his young family
  • A place that two of his mentors loved and currently "work" for
I think you're undervaluing some of the human element that SJ offers, probably about as much as I am overvaluing it :laugh:
Marner will get all of that except for a break from the media and daily access to Thornton and Marleau when he inevitably stays in Toronto, and he's dealt with the media his whole career and I'm sure he can call Jumbo or Patty whenever he wants

The ONLY way Mitch Marner signs here is if we give him a legit max deal with high bonuses and an NMC and he just feels like he can't turn it down, and at that point you're just adding someone chasing money more than you're adding any real hope of winning to your immediate roster, it's a waste of resources

I'm not interested in giving Marner $19.1Mx7Y on a buyout proof contract with trade protections so he can help us finish 6th last instead of 3rd last, it would be incredibly stupid to do so
 
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I have been thinking about the Dickinson conundrum (where should he play next year) and I think the move is to keep him in the OHL next year.
I don’t think you can shelter a defenseman like you can a forward making it hard to do what we did with will smith this year.
I am concerned if he is in the NHL next year he ends up like Korchinski in Chicago who was also a highly touted defense prospect who had a great D1 and was put in the NHL on a terrible team. Korchinski seems to have regressed substantially since then and lost a lot of confidence.
I think we should play it safe and keep Dickinson in the OHL another year.
He needs to get his 9 games, at minimum. There is just such little to gain going back to London to put up 120 points and dominate yet again. He's got the size to play in the NHL now. Just needs to get more experience and build habits by knowing what works and doesn't in the NHL. He doesn't necessarily need to play 80 games next year, but can be on a developmental plan to get him 60 games of NHL action with a lot of practice and film time.

I also don't know if Korchinski really regressed versus they actually had the AHL available to them this year as a 20 year old and utilized it as opposed to playing another year on a bad NHL team. You can also loan him for the WJC as well after his initial run up to the tourney to help him gain confidence back (assuming Canada fired everyone associated with the 2024-25 team into the sun).
 
Marner will get all of that except for a break from the media and daily access to Thornton and Marleau when he inevitably stays in Toronto, and he's dealt with the media his whole career and I'm sure he can call Jumbo or Patty whenever he wants

The ONLY way Mitch Marner signs here is if we give him a legit max deal with high bonuses and an NMC and he just feels like he can't turn it down, and at that point you're just adding someone chasing money more than you're adding any real hope of winning to your immediate roster, it's a waste of resources

I'm not interested in giving Marner $19.1Mx7Y on a buyout proof contract with trade protections so he can help us finish 6th last instead of 3rd last, it would be incredibly stupid to do so
Marner leaving Toronto is largely dependent on how the playoffs go. If he is seen as the scapegoat in another early exit then I could see him wanting to get out of that media market. If they make a deep run or he plays well then I see him happy to stay.

Also he will not ask for 19.1. An overpay to sign him would be $17 million. Or if he is like Sid he might be happy with $16 million a year to match his #.
 
Marner leaving Toronto is largely dependent on how the playoffs go. If he is seen as the scapegoat in another early exit then I could see him wanting to get out of that media market. If they make a deep run or he plays well then I see him happy to stay.

Also he will not ask for 19.1. An overpay to sign him would be $17 million. Or if he is like Sid he might be happy with $16 million a year to match his #.
Marner is getting overplayed no matter what because he is not a truly premier player and he's going to demand a salary on par with someone like Leon Draisaitl who actually does produce like an elite player

When Toronto gives him $14M it's going to be an overpayment, the question that's left to him is if he only wants to be overpaid in a familiar environment where he at least achieves regular season success every year or of he wants to chase stupid money to play for a bottom feeder

If he even wanted to come here I question his motivations, and frankly wouldn't want him on my hockey team as a tacit veteran leader when he's only here to line his pockets
 
I have been thinking about the Dickinson conundrum (where should he play next year) and I think the move is to keep him in the OHL next year.
I don’t think you can shelter a defenseman like you can a forward making it hard to do what we did with will smith this year.
I am concerned if he is in the NHL next year he ends up like Korchinski in Chicago who was also a highly touted defense prospect who had a great D1 and was put in the NHL on a terrible team. Korchinski seems to have regressed substantially since then and lost a lot of confidence.
I think we should play it safe and keep Dickinson in the OHL another year.
You can't shelter them like you can forwards but the concept can still apply. Third pairing guys often get 12-15 minutes of ice time. I don't see why Dickinson can't do that sporadically over the course of next season. That spot should predominantly be a development spot for a defenseman. If it's not Dickinson, it might be Schaefer if we draft him and they think he should be in the NHL. If it's not either of them, it should probably be Cagnoni to develop. If all three options fizzle out, they'll likely have Thrun to fill in as needed.

I just don't think there's anything for Dickinson to accomplish in the OHL and playing it safe like that still carries with it a risk of stagnation and injuries like we saw with Musty this season. Musty was pretty clearly not ready for the NHL but going back to juniors did nothing for him. That may be still the best outcome but I don't know if the same will apply to Dickinson next season.
 
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…If he even wanted to come here I question his motivations, and frankly wouldn't want him on my hockey team as a tacit veteran leader when he's only here to line his pockets

The Sharks aren’t good. They are not likely to be for the immediate future. No one is signing here because the Sharks will give them the best chance to win for at least the next season or two or three or four.

So unless a free-agent is so sub-standard as to have no other options, anyone who signs with the Sharks will do so for some other reason than win-now. Should we just understand them as having chosen the Sharks to line their pockets?

Should Grier just dump non-winning-wanters Toffoli and Wennberg? How can the Sharks use UFA to get better if they have to disregard any of the loser free agents that are willing to sign with them?
 
Should we just understand them as having chosen the Sharks to line their pockets?
Yes
Should Grier just dump non-winning-wanters Toffoli and Wennberg?
No
How can the Sharks use UFA to get better if they have to disregard any of the loser free agents that are willing to sign with them?
They can't, at least not to get better in any substantive way

Real improvement will come through draft picks and smart trades, UFA is a tool to add missing pieces to an already good team, you can't build a bad team into a good team in free agency, not in the NHL
 
They can't, at least not to get better in any substantive way

Real improvement will come through draft picks and smart trades, UFA is a tool to add missing pieces to an already good team, you can't build a bad team into a good team in free agency, not in the NHL

I, notably, didn’t suggest that you can turn a bad team into a good team using exclusively free agents signings. Any team can get better through free-agency. These players, and their families, are humans not hockey automatons. Not every decision they make is centered around winning.

Additionally, why would the Sharks discount one tool they have to get better? Yes, draft and develop. Yes, work the trade market. Yes, use free agency.
 
I think there are a few types of players that would play here:

-vets who have won the cup but are tired of being moved every deadline like Toffoli

-guys who are good but feel like they haven’t had the chance to shine on their team — 3rd line guys who believe they have more to give

-guys who are only getting offers from the lower level teams because of whatever reason — Sharks might be one of the more attractive rebuilds

-guys who this would be their last chance to prove they belong

-guys who want to make sure they make enough money to survive retirement and cash in here

And the probably way way way way far at the bottom — the guys who can look into the future and see this as a team that they’re willing to invest their time into to compete in a few years.
 
I, notably, didn’t suggest that you can turn a bad team into a good team using exclusively free agents signings. Any team can get better through free-agency. These players, and their families, are humans not hockey automatons. Not every decision they make is centered around winning.

Additionally, why would the Sharks discount one tool they have to get better? Yes, draft and develop. Yes, work the trade market. Yes, use free agency.
I'm not against signing players in free agency, in fact we literally have to do so this summer because we are $20M below the salary floor

My issue is with posters asserting that we need to chase big name UFAs right now to make improvements for next season or else the front office isn't doing a good job, while I would argue that making such shortsighted moves puts a ceiling on our long-term prospects of building a winning team in an effort to chase short-term success (success that won't come anyway even if we sign every big name free agent available in this lackluster UFA class)

We need to stay the path, draft and develop highly talented prospects near the top of the first round, sign veteran stop-gap role players to help ease the young guys into the league, weaponize our cap space to take on salary problems of other teams and extract assets when we both aquire them and when we flip them like we did with Walman

Grier is doing the smart things, I understand why fans are impatient after missing the playoffs for 6 straight years, but we've been rebuilding for about 3 seasons, it's not Mike's fault the org let us all wander through the dessert for 3 years before someone got proactive about the rebuild process, but it is now his mess to clean and he's doing it the right way
 
I'm not against signing players in free agency, in fact we literally have to do so this summer because we are $20M below the salary floor

My issue is with posters asserting that we need to chase big name UFAs right now to make improvements for next season or else the front office isn't doing a good job, while I would argue that making such shortsighted moves puts a ceiling on our long-term prospects of building a winning team in an effort to chase short-term success (success that won't come anyway even if we sign every big name free agent available in this lackluster UFA class)

We need to stay the path, draft and develop highly talented prospects near the top of the first round, sign veteran stop-gap role players to help ease the young guys into the league, weaponize our cap space to take on salary problems of other teams and extract assets when we both aquire them and when we flip them like we did with Walman

Grier is doing the smart things, I understand why fans are impatient after missing the playoffs for 6 straight years, but we've been rebuilding for about 3 seasons, it's not Mike's fault the org let us all wander through the dessert for 3 years before someone got proactive about the rebuild process, but it is now his mess to clean and he's doing it the right way

Agreed. I think if a big name FA that’s young and can be a leader on this team as it gets better wants to sign here, by all means. Sam Bennett, Marner, I do think these guys would be good adds and can continue to be part of this team long term. But I don’t think it’s NECESSARY. For me, I maintain, that I just want a better defense so Celebrini and Smith have someone, anyone, to get them the puck.
 
Korchinski is a pretty compelling argument to leave Dickinson in the OHL, to be honest. I think Dickie is a better prospect, but Korchinski does not look good.
Is that just Korchinski, though? How much can we apply the same path to the NHL to another prospect?
 
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