Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

Sharks drafting from 2003-2012 was excellent. The late round gems and even some of the very good 1st rounders. Cooch,for instance. they had the 13th overall that year form a toskala trade and moved up to 9 to get him. What a play.

Sharks' demise really came from the poor drafting that followed that period. 2016-2020 saw no sharks draftees play a top 4D or top 9F role for the sharks. (ferraro is closest and norris was deal). 5 straight years without a single draft success is gunna bankrupt your org pretty fast.

At this point, including the 2025 draft, the cupboard should be stacked enough to climb out of this hole. It's up to Grier to get the key complimentary pieces in place to support the kids. Toffoli is great example, but they need about 4 more, including 2-3 quality D.
 
What makes 55th overall pick Hamaliuk a bigger bust than 21st overall Merkley, 31st overall Wiesblatt, 38th overall Bordeleau, 48th overall Kniazev, etc.? In the final analysis, none of these players generated any value for the Sharks either on the ice or via trade.

The other guys didn't struggle at the AHL level and end up spending like 90% of their pro careers to-date in the ECHL and Slovakia (itself like the.... 9th best Euro elite league? 10th?)
 
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The other guys didn't struggle at the AHL level and end up spending like 90% of their pro careers to-date in the ECHL and Slovakia (itself like the.... 9th best Euro elite league? 10th?)
Who cares? We're not drafting players to fill out an AHL roster (besides, Wiesblatt and Merkley were terrible AHL players anyway). Hamaliuk was drafted at a slot where you shouldn't expect to get a NHL player whereas Merkley and Wiesblatt were 1st rounders who couldn't even make it to a combined 50 career NHL games. Much bigger busts.
 
Of course, size is not everything, but its very big. When you take a total of one player with size with a late second rounder, its tough.

Undersized guys can be successful, but not usually alone as they tend to need size alongside them. On occasion, the real greats can drive the play themselves at that size, but most are paired with 6'3, 210+ linemates.

This is why I think that Ek, smith, and celly can be successful if they can get beef like cherny, haltunnen, or musty alongside 'em. but, you can see how wennberg has been the only top 9 forward who can actually possess the puck for more than a few seconds, and without more guys of that size or bigger, the sharks just cannot control games.

The point still is that your analysis is flawed because none of those players except maybe Gushchin have failed to live up to expectations purely or largely because of size. Small guys can succeed, but small guys that lack NHL caliber skills won't, just the same as big guys without NHL caliber skills. Merkley, for instance busted because he has a 10-cent brain and doesn't defend.

The Sharks' struggles at the draft table in that period are because they took guys with big flaws that couldn't be overcome, not that they drafted guys who were too small.

Besides:

2006: Ty Wishart (6'4, 222) - 21 NHL GP
2007: Nick Petrecki (6'3, 227) - 1 NHL GP
2008: Justin Daniels (6'2, 195) - never made it above the low minors
2009: Taylor Doherty (6'7, 235) - topped out in the AHL
2010: Max Gaede (6'3, 200) - topped out in the ECHL in his only pro year
2011: Justin Sefton (6'3, 226) - Played 2 games in the ECHL then was in USports (Canadian University league) for 3 years likely as a guy who was there to get his degree but also play hockey
2013: Mirco Mueller (6'2, 176) - Was basically force-fed 185 NHL games and we watched him drown


You can make exactly the same list of "look at all this failure!" picks for guys with size. They failed not because they were or weren't big, but because they sucked. The successes in that range of years were McGinn, Couture, Coyle, Hertl, Nieto, and Tierney and none of them were particularly big besides Hertl and Coyle.


All things being equal, is having size better than not having it? Sure. But like drafting for position, you don't draft for size unless it breaks a tie or pass on a guy because of size unless he's so small that you worry his skill level won't overcome it.

Like, for instance, I have talked up Cameron Schmidt all year because he's the top draft eligible from my favorite WHL team and he's an incredibly dynamic offensive player when he's on his game, having scored 40 goals in just 61 games and was better than a point-per-game. But I don't fault any team that doesn't want to take him because he's inconsistent and streaky enough that you don't get his A-game every single shift and he's like 5'7 on skates. That's an instance of size mattering. But I'm not passing up skilled 5'11 guys in favor of 6'2+ guys as a broad drafting strategy just because some of those 5'11 guys are going to bust.
 
New here, just wanted to check and say “Herroo”. I was always a Jets/Selänne fan growing up, but I haven’t really had any team since then. I’ve decided that the Sharks is my new team though - bottom-dwellers or not, they have the best logo, jerseys and exciting young core in the biz. Hell, my son even shares the same name as one of the emerging stars on the team.

Cheers y’all
 
New here, just wanted to check and say “Herroo”. I was always a Jets/Selänne fan growing up, but I haven’t really had any team since then. I’ve decided that the Sharks is my new team though - bottom-dwellers or not, they have the best logo, jerseys and exciting young core in the biz. Hell, my son even shares the same name as one of the emerging stars on the team.

Cheers y’all
Welcome!
 
New here, just wanted to check and say “Herroo”. I was always a Jets/Selänne fan growing up, but I haven’t really had any team since then. I’ve decided that the Sharks is my new team though - bottom-dwellers or not, they have the best logo, jerseys and exciting young core in the biz. Hell, my son even shares the same name as one of the emerging stars on the team.

Cheers y’all


Your son’s name is Barclay?!

Welcome!
 
New here, just wanted to check and say “Herroo”. I was always a Jets/Selänne fan growing up, but I haven’t really had any team since then. I’ve decided that the Sharks is my new team though - bottom-dwellers or not, they have the best logo, jerseys and exciting young core in the biz. Hell, my son even shares the same name as one of the emerging stars on the team.

Cheers y’all
Time to break out the retro selanne sharks jersey
 
New here, just wanted to check and say “Herroo”. I was always a Jets/Selänne fan growing up, but I haven’t really had any team since then. I’ve decided that the Sharks is my new team though - bottom-dwellers or not, they have the best logo, jerseys and exciting young core in the biz. Hell, my son even shares the same name as one of the emerging stars on the team.

Cheers y’all
Welcome!
It's gonna be a bumpy ride but our driver is 18-year old franchise center, so I firmly believe we are in good hands.
 
The point still is that your analysis is flawed because none of those players except maybe Gushchin have failed to live up to expectations purely or largely because of size. Small guys can succeed, but small guys that lack NHL caliber skills won't, just the same as big guys without NHL caliber skills. Merkley, for instance busted because he has a 10-cent brain and doesn't defend.

The Sharks' struggles at the draft table in that period are because they took guys with big flaws that couldn't be overcome, not that they drafted guys who were too small.

Besides:

2006: Ty Wishart (6'4, 222) - 21 NHL GP
2007: Nick Petrecki (6'3, 227) - 1 NHL GP
2008: Justin Daniels (6'2, 195) - never made it above the low minors
2009: Taylor Doherty (6'7, 235) - topped out in the AHL
2010: Max Gaede (6'3, 200) - topped out in the ECHL in his only pro year
2011: Justin Sefton (6'3, 226) - Played 2 games in the ECHL then was in USports (Canadian University league) for 3 years likely as a guy who was there to get his degree but also play hockey
2013: Mirco Mueller (6'2, 176) - Was basically force-fed 185 NHL games and we watched him drown


You can make exactly the same list of "look at all this failure!" picks for guys with size. They failed not because they were or weren't big, but because they sucked. The successes in that range of years were McGinn, Couture, Coyle, Hertl, Nieto, and Tierney and none of them were particularly big besides Hertl and Coyle.


All things being equal, is having size better than not having it? Sure. But like drafting for position, you don't draft for size unless it breaks a tie or pass on a guy because of size unless he's so small that you worry his skill level won't overcome it.

Like, for instance, I have talked up Cameron Schmidt all year because he's the top draft eligible from my favorite WHL team and he's an incredibly dynamic offensive player when he's on his game, having scored 40 goals in just 61 games and was better than a point-per-game. But I don't fault any team that doesn't want to take him because he's inconsistent and streaky enough that you don't get his A-game every single shift and he's like 5'7 on skates. That's an instance of size mattering. But I'm not passing up skilled 5'11 guys in favor of 6'2+ guys as a broad drafting strategy just because some of those 5'11 guys are going to bust.
I hear yah... that said, name a player the sharks have drafted in their entire history of 32 draft years that was sub 6' and went on to be a top 6F or top 4D. The answer is.... Ray Whitney and William Eklund! Labanc is kinda close as the only other one who could be said to maybe fit that description (which he did for exactly one season at the 6th leading Forward scorer in 18-19). The other closest were nieto and Wingels, but they are not anywhere near top 6F.

Sorry, but size matters. Granted there are many in the 6'0" and 6'1" on that list, but one 5'10, and one 5'11" and thats it.

Bordeleau and Gush are great examples of players with NHL skills if they have only been a few inches taller and 30 lbs heavier. they both have good speed, nice hands, good shots.... But they are just too small to win battles, to possess the puck, or to defend hard enough so they just couldnt stick in the nHL despite being above average AHL players.

So, if I was picking between a 5'11' and 6'2" I take the lesser skilled 6'2" unless the 5'11" is so massively head and shoulders better.

Now between 6'1 and 6"3, the difference is far less.

lastly, I think a smaller player can still be a great ontributor if partnered with size and with size on the back end too. Four guys 6'2"+ can control the play while a 5'10" skilled player and slash and burn and produce. But a full line at 6'0 or less (like the smith/cell/toff line? Might score some from pure skill but cannot dominante or possess the puck consistently...
 
My bad: add Fat Balloon to the list. he was a borderline top 6F for a few years too (though never hit even 60 pts) after being 2nd overall ahead of Niedermeyer, Forsberg, and many others.
 
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My bad: add Fat Balloon to the list. he was a borderline top 6F for a few years too (though never hit even 60 pts) after being 2nd overall ahead of Niedermeyer, Forsberg, and many others.
Korolyuk as well.

I think Joe Pavelski might fit here, as could Marcus Ragnarsson.
 
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He was still a top-6 forward. This is a hill I will die on. Consider the era he played in, and who he played for, and who he played with!

My point is that both players might be listing their heights accurately.
korky never placed among the top 6 forwards in points with the sharks. So, while he was definitely a top 9, I think top 6 is a stretch, and the stats dont back it.

Either way, the original point is the true rarity with which a player sub 6' becomes a solid top half of the lineup player. In all, in just the top 3 rounds from founding to 2020, they have drafted 12 players sub 6'0. Whitney and fat balloon are the only two to hit.

Not a great rate and whitney is really the only consistent top half of the linuep player of that size ever drafted.

I hope they continue to prioritize size forever. I miss the days of Jumbo, Patty, Hertl, Heatley Clowe, Burns.... man, that's a lot of beef all 6'2"+, 220+, and I remember whole chunks when the sharks just possessed the puck in the O zone and dominated the game with their cycle. You can't do that with guys 5'11, 185.

Bring on the BEEF!
 
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Here's a picture of Joe Pavelski next to two guys who are listed at 6'2".
 
New here, just wanted to check and say “Herroo”. I was always a Jets/Selänne fan growing up, but I haven’t really had any team since then. I’ve decided that the Sharks is my new team though - bottom-dwellers or not, they have the best logo, jerseys and exciting young core in the biz. Hell, my son even shares the same name as one of the emerging stars on the team.

Cheers y’all
Probably the best time to join. You missed all the earlier trauma and last year was probably the total bottom. The Sharks are starting to climb out of the pit. They will still be last, but not as bad as last year. Next year will be better. Still probably bottom 3, but maybe bottom 5 depending on who they are able to add to the team. My favorite Selanne play was when he hit Pronger in the Olympics.
 

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