Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Star Platinum]

Walman is totally fine as a 2nd pairing guy.

Maybe. We haven't seen yet. Ferraro should be a bottom pairing guy at best.

 

[OrrNumber4]

The Sharks have a lot of futures, many of which are non-critical. You have the Dallas first, the 2025 2nd, the 2026 2nd, the Avalanche's 2026 2nd, Musty, Chernyshov, Cagnoni, Mukhamadullin, Bystedt...plus, players like Wennberg, Ferraro, and Zetterlund who might not be here in the long term. Package some of those for a solid defenseman.

Would Buffalo turn down something like Byram for Bystedt, Thrun, 2025 DAL first, and 2025 Sharks 2nd?

If you draft Schaefer and sign a FA like Ekblad, you can trade Ferraro and run:

Byram-Ekblad
Walman-Schaefer
Mukhamadullin-Liljegren
Vlasic

It's not ideal, but that's a playoff-worthy blueline if Schaefer is up to it.

 

[Star Platinum]

Hope you're doing better soon. I got it (for the first time!) last summer in the leadup to the draft, so I consumed a lot of content there and really started to pay attention to Dickinson for the first time--not because I thought he'd somehow end up with the Sharks. But because he did, now those two things will be intrinsically linked in my mind forever.

I can only hope for your sake that the Four Nations is entertaining and gives you something to remember positively from this, too!

I worry it's gonna be too much like the All Star Game because nobody is going to want to risk their health for a meaningless tournament

Then he has already failed. One of the two will be in the top 4, at least.

It's not impossible that he could decide to deal both by June, although I doubt that's going to happen. Ferraro should be dealt because he's a third pairing defenseman at best and we need to find out whether one of our young guys can be a better defenseman than he is.

 

[Star Platinum]

They will be, but not sure either makes it past the deadline.

It’s not like there’s a ton of great options in free agency to replace em and the ones that are are gonna want more term than we should be giving.

If it can't be addressed in free agency, then make trades. But the one thing they can't do is bring back the same guys from this season. They're no better now than they were at the start of the season when they didn't know each other's tendencies, they're not going to be better next year either and the defensive performance is flat out unacceptable for next year. It has to improve.

I wouldn't put money on it. I think between the possibility of drafting Schaefer, the potential graduations of Dickinson and Mukhamadullin, and the likelihood that someone as effective as Ferraro can be had in free agency or in a trade would make it difficult to see Ferraro sticking around.

I would be stunned if both Dickinson and Mukhamadullin are holding down regular spots in our defense next year. They're probably willing to do one, but no way are they going to do both.

 

[Star Platinum]

I just don’t see a realistic way to upgrade the left side without overpaying for a player that will end up blocking the multiple LD prospects.

For those who don’t want Walman and Ferraro to be in the top 4, who do you want? If it’s Thrun, Muk, Dickinson, Cagnoni, or Schaefer then I hate to break it to you that none of those players will be more effective than Walman and Ferraro.

Do you really want to pay the assets to acquire Byram when there are already Dickinson, Muk, and hopefully Schaefer?

For as bad as Walman and Ferraro are they are multiple levels above the current options the Sharks have on the right side.

I admit that the Sharks need to upgrade both LD and RD but unless they upgrade RD there is no reason to not just wait out the contracts of Ferraro and Walman until the prospects can take over.

You can't block defensive prospects unless you have 7 or more NHL average or above defensemen in your system. The Sharks are not even remotely close to having this issue.

If the Sharks go out and acquire a LHD that is clearly better than Walman, even if he'd be just a good second pairing guy on a Cup contender, that significantly improves the Sharks defense by itself. Now you've got Walman taking easier matchups and whoever your other third pairing LHD is is getting better matchups as well. If they also go out and acquire two better RHD better than Liljegren (again, not a hard thing to do), that pushes Liljegren down into a third pairing role with whoever your third pairing LHD is and makes your defense significantly better even if it's still a below average NHL defense on the whole. And none of these guys needs to be signed for 7-8 years, nor do they need to be under 30 years of age. All they need to do is be clearly better than the guys we have now and that is not a difficult bar to clear. There are teams out there that need to open up spots for their young guys as well or need to trim payroll, or have too many young guys ready to play and want to move one to improve their team elsewhere.

Grier didn't go out trying to seriously improve the defense this year, he went dumpster diving. Walman and Liljegren were unwanted by their teams. He brought Ferraro, Thrun, Benning, and Rutta back. Vlasic he had no choice. Ceci was the only guy that other playoff teams would have seriously considered putting in their second pairing (Walman has maybe shown himself to be that level of guy now). It's no shock that the defense is still the worst in the league.

Now maybe he was hoping Mukhamadullin was going to be healthy and push one of those guys on the left side down, but it's my opinion that whatever he says publicly that he was counting on the defense to tank the team so that they could get another high pick this year. Mission accomplished. But that's two years of horrific defense and one year of the two brightest prospects in your system being frustrated because you lose games night after night because you can't get the puck out of your defensive zone and giving your young goalie who should be getting at least half of next year's starts no support. They can't do that for a third year in a row or they are going to be on the Buffalo plan. Doesn't mean they have to seriously contend for a playoff spot next year, but they have to be more competitive than they are this year and they need to be somewhere more in that 5-10 range of teams at worst.

 

[TheBeard]

If it can't be addressed in free agency, then make trades. But the one thing they can't do is bring back the same guys from this season. They're no better now than they were at the start of the season when they didn't know each other's tendencies, they're not going to be better next year either and the defensive performance is flat out unacceptable for next year. It has to improve.

Here’s the reality. The problem with our defense isn’t that Ferraro and Walman are playing on it, it’s that they’re the two best playing on it. If both are still there next year playing on the third and second pairing respectively then we’ll be in much better shape.

Would Buffalo turn down something like Byram for Bystedt, Thrun, 2025 DAL first, and 2025 Sharks 2nd?

That’s way too much. Essentially three late firsts and a former 3rd rounder.

 

[Star Platinum]

If we get Schaefer (25% chanceish), then maybe you suffer one more year with Walman, Ferraro, Mukh, Thrun on the left side with Cagnoni getting occasional call ups when Old Man Vlasic doesn't feel like it. But that's still very rough unless we massively upgrade the right side. I don't think Dickinson will be ready next year, extremely happy if I'm wrong. And I don't see Mukh being a core or even middle pair piece of a playoff team, again hope he proves me wrong but it might take him to late 20s.

If you don't get Schaefer, then go try to get Byram because Dickinson is probably not our #1 for 5 years if ever, and we want to at least try to take steps. It's going to be a heavy lift for Grier this summer.

And ideally, even if you get Schaefer, I don't think it's a given that he's ready to be in the NHL next year. He's incredibly young and coming off a serious injury. Ideally, he'd sign with a US college program for a year and then come up after that. So you still need to deal with the left side one way or the other.

 

[OrrNumber4]

t’s way too much. Essentially three late firsts and a former 3rd rounder.

If someone offered a two late firsts and a late 3rd for that 2nd, Bystedt, and Thrun, the Sharks would jump on it...

 

[Grinner]

Here’s the reality. The problem with our defense isn’t that Ferraro and Walman are playing on it, it’s that they’re the two best playing on it. If both are still there next year playing on the third and second pairing respectively then we’ll be in much better shape.


That’s way too much. Essentially three late firsts and a former 3rd rounder.

If you read what Sabre fans say, they wouldn't be interested in futures or prospects.

 

[Star Platinum]

If you read what Sabre fans say, they wouldn't be interested in futures or prospects.

Nor should they be. This is one of those cases where fans are making offers of what they don't want for what they want and not taking into account where that player was drafted, what he was traded for before, and what the team trading him needs.

 

[Grinner]

Nor should they be. This is one of those cases where fans are making offers of what they don't want for what they want and not taking into account where that player was drafted, what he was traded for before, and what the team trading him needs.

So, a run of the mill (hf) offer.

 

[mogambomoroo]

The only long term position defencemen we need are all RD and maybe 1LD.
We need a 1LD to take that spot on his own OR keep the bench warm for Schaefer.
2LD Walman keeps the seat warm for Dickinson next year.
3rd pair as a whole is the only thing that will probably change around even during the competitive years, but if you have Mukhamadullin relatively cheap doing his job well there, it's a win.

Now, the RD's are very premium assets in NHL so it's clear that Sharks need to overpay on FA or overpay on a trade to get them. I'm ready to use any of the 1st round (DAL), 2nd picks (all of them), Halttunen, Musty, Ferraro and even Zetterlund if it means they'll figure out the 1RD and 2RD spots for at least 3-4 years and go on from there.

I'm actually okay with keeping Walman as 1LD and turning Mukhamadullin to 2LD if they get premium 1RD and 2RD for next year. But the best case scenario is that they get 1LD, 1RD and 2RD spots this summer and the key word is that they don't need to be the premium defencemen of the crop but just need to be a clear upgrade from this year.

Last year was good example with how MG got Walman - Ceci and later Liljegren, which was a clear upgrade from the season before. This year it needs to happen in a way that Walman is bumped into 2nd pair and Liljegren is stapled to 3rd pair or 7th D.

 

[hohosaregood]

I'd argue that we don't even need top pairing dmen yet, we just need top 4 dmen. It's just that we need 3x of them. But it's tough since we're trying to graduate Muk, Thompson, and to a lesser degree, Thrun. I think you'd have to ship out Ferraro if you're gonna give those guys a legit chance while also building a real defense for the team.

Grier has to grab at least one from UFA this off-season, and ideally two of them to give the team a chance next season.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Nor should they be. This is one of those cases where fans are making offers of what they don't want for what they want and not taking into account where that player was drafted, what he was traded for before, and what the team trading him needs.

They could trade futures for other assets...

But it's tough since we're trying to graduate Muk, Thompson, and to a lesser degree, Thrun. I think you'd have to ship out Ferraro if you're gonna give those guys a legit chance while also building a real defense for the team.

To me, Thrun is already graduated. He's a capable NHL defenseman with not much more left. It's in his hands to power through adversity, make improvements, and not be coddled.

 

[gaucholoco3]

The only long term position defencemen we need are all RD and maybe 1LD.
We need a 1LD to take that spot on his own OR keep the bench warm for Schaefer.
2LD Walman keeps the seat warm for Dickinson next year.
3rd pair as a whole is the only thing that will probably change around even during the competitive years, but if you have Mukhamadullin relatively cheap doing his job well there, it's a win.

Now, the RD's are very premium assets in NHL so it's clear that Sharks need to overpay on FA or overpay on a trade to get them. I'm ready to use any of the 1st round (DAL), 2nd picks (all of them), Halttunen, Musty, Ferraro and even Zetterlund if it means they'll figure out the 1RD and 2RD spots for at least 3-4 years and go on from there.

I'm actually okay with keeping Walman as 1LD and turning Mukhamadullin to 2LD if they get premium 1RD and 2RD for next year. But the best case scenario is that they get 1LD, 1RD and 2RD spots this summer and the key word is that they don't need to be the premium defencemen of the crop but just need to be a clear upgrade from this year.

Last year was good example with how MG got Walman - Ceci and later Liljegren, which was a clear upgrade from the season before. This year it needs to happen in a way that Walman is bumped into 2nd pair and Liljegren is stapled to 3rd pair or 7th D.

I completely agree the Sharks need 3 D that are better than all their current D. They need a 1LD, 1RD, and 2RD. The problem is fans thinking it is realistic thinking that can happen in one offseason. The Sharks will be lucky to fill one of those holes this offseason.

I would love if they traded Ferraro as I don’t think he will have a future with the Sharks but he apparently has value in the league. The problem is by trading Ferraro that is asking a lot of Muk or Thrun to take those minutes. I’m hoping Muk can show enough in the 25 remaining games that he is ready so they can trade Ferraro.

 

[matt trick]

I'm tempering my expectations for this offseason. If we got another Walman and Ceci- not for free, but by paying for them- I'd be satisfied with that. There are tons of UFAs who are improvements on Thrun, Thompson, and Rutta. There are also a few more that are +/- Ferraro's level. Very few Walman improvements or even Ceci (if looking at the right side).

Trade targets (UFA):

Top Pair: Anderson, Byram, Dobson, Chychrun, Ekblad, Gavrikov
2nd Pair: S. Jones, Miller, Ristolainen, Pulock, Zub, Carlo, Romanov, Orlov, Kovacevic, Provorov, Pionk, Burns, Fabbro
2nd pair Upside Bets: Nemec, Clarke, Hague, Spence, Z. Jones (long shot)
4/5 At Best: Peeke, Murphy, Soucy, Manson, Jokiharju, Ceci, Lindgren, Grezlyk

Honestly, it's not a super inspiring list. As we all know it'll look worse as we approach free agency. I expect Chychrun, Ekblad, Gavrikov, Pionk, Provorov, and Fabbro re-sign. I don't see Andersson (most likely IMO), Zub, Romanov, or Clarke getting traded. Byram, Miller, and Dobson will likely require core roster players, not futures. Burns will be chasing a cup. Jones's contract should be a non-starter.

I'm guessing there will be 20 teams looking for quality bottom 4 d-men. 2025 1sts are undervalued this year, and we can't move our own 1sts.

Our defense will be improved, and I trust Grier to be aggressive, but I have no optimism we're going to add three top 4 d-men. I'd be pleasantly surprised with two. At least not in one offseason. Adding one of Schaefer, Verhoeff, or Reid makes rebuilding the defense worlds easier.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I just don’t see a realistic way to upgrade the left side without overpaying for a player that will end up blocking the multiple LD prospects.

For those who don’t want Walman and Ferraro to be in the top 4, who do you want? If it’s Thrun, Muk, Dickinson, Cagnoni, or Schaefer then I hate to break it to you that none of those players will be more effective than Walman and Ferraro.

Do you really want to pay the assets to acquire Byram when there are already Dickinson, Muk, and hopefully Schaefer?

For as bad as Walman and Ferraro are they are multiple levels above the current options the Sharks have on the right side.

I admit that the Sharks need to upgrade both LD and RD but unless they upgrade RD there is no reason to not just wait out the contracts of Ferraro and Walman until the prospects can take over.

The Sharks don't need to upgrade the left side honestly. Moving on from Ferraro and allowing the best two of Cagnoni, Dickinson, Mukhamadullin, Schaefer, and Thrun be the 2nd and 3rd pairing guys is fine even if it means getting less effective players in the short term. I expect an upgrade or two on the right side to coincide with allowing internal options to develop at the NHL level.

I would be stunned if both Dickinson and Mukhamadullin are holding down regular spots in our defense next year. They're probably willing to do one, but no way are they going to do both.

They don't need to do both to want to move on from Ferraro if there's decent trade value out there for him. Moving him opens things up for the team to either develop a 2nd guy or to bring in a fresh face through other means. Worst case scenario after trading Ferraro is you have Thrun step in to take the beatings that Ferraro has been taking. I just don't see a good reason to hang on to Ferraro at this point. His game is too limited to help a developing team in a top four position. The middle six is going to need a second pairing that can move the puck effectively from at least two bottom four defensemen and Ferraro ain't it.

 

[STL Shark]

If someone offered a two late firsts and a late 3rd for that 2nd, Bystedt, and Thrun, the Sharks would jump on it...

I don't know that they would. You're basically just saying we wasted years of developing Bystedt/Thrun for the chance to draft 2 more guys just like them.

That's the issue in dealing in just draft picks. I think that offer is at the absolute very maximum of what I'd offer for Byram, but would probably do it if we don't get Schaefer. With Schaefer, I don't know how I would feel about blowing through that much future capital and cap space with Dickinson also on his way soon.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

I don't know that they would. You're basically just saying we wasted years of developing Bystedt/Thrun for the chance to draft 2 more guys just like them.

That's the issue in dealing in just draft picks. I think that offer is at the absolute very maximum of what I'd offer for Byram, but would probably do it if we don't get Schaefer. With Schaefer, I don't know how I would feel about blowing through that much future capital and cap space with Dickinson also on his way soon.

Because our development of Bystedt and Thrun hasn’t been successful. Both are on track to bust.

 

[CupfortheSharks]

I'm tempering my expectations for this offseason. If we got another Walman and Ceci- not for free, but by paying for them- I'd be satisfied with that. There are tons of UFAs who are improvements on Thrun, Thompson, and Rutta. There are also a few more that are +/- Ferraro's level. Very few Walman improvements or even Ceci (if looking at the right side).

Trade targets (UFA):

Top Pair: Anderson, Byram, Dobson, Chychrun, Ekblad, Gavrikov
2nd Pair: S. Jones, Miller, Ristolainen, Pulock, Zub, Carlo, Romanov, Orlov, Kovacevic, Provorov, Pionk, Burns, Fabbro
2nd pair Upside Bets: Nemec, Clarke, Hague, Spence, Z. Jones (long shot)
4/5 At Best: Peeke, Murphy, Soucy, Manson, Jokiharju, Ceci, Lindgren, Grezlyk

Honestly, it's not a super inspiring list. As we all know it'll look worse as we approach free agency. I expect Chychrun, Ekblad, Gavrikov, Pionk, Provorov, and Fabbro re-sign. I don't see Andersson (most likely IMO), Zub, Romanov, or Clarke getting traded. Byram, Miller, and Dobson will likely require core roster players, not futures. Burns will be chasing a cup. Jones's contract should be a non-starter.

I'm guessing there will be 20 teams looking for quality bottom 4 d-men. 2025 1sts are undervalued this year, and we can't move our own 1sts.

Our defense will be improved, and I trust Grier to be aggressive, but I have no optimism we're going to add three top 4 d-men. I'd be pleasantly surprised with two. At least not in one offseason. Adding one of Schaefer, Verhoeff, or Reid makes rebuilding the defense worlds easier.

I’m also tempering expectations this off season. This year Grier was able to add 3 of our top 4 defensemen as cap dumps. With the cap going up, every team will have more space to keep their own players and pursue UFAs. I expect the UFA contracts to be stupid high this year and we are going to have to pay a premium because we are a bottom feeder. Our biggest need on D is replacement for Ceci. Hopefully an upgrade, but RD that you want on the ice against the other teams best forwards are tough to get.

 

[TheBeard]

They don't need to do both to want to move on from Ferraro if there's decent trade value out there for him. Moving him opens things up for the team to either develop a 2nd guy or to bring in a fresh face through other means. Worst case scenario after trading Ferraro is you have Thrun step in to take the beatings that Ferraro has been taking. I just don't see a good reason to hang on to Ferraro at this point. His game is too limited to help a developing team in a top four position. The middle six is going to need a second pairing that can move the puck effectively from at least two bottom four defensemen and Ferraro ain't it

This could be an absolute disaster. For all the crap he gets here, not having Mario would have made us a worse team than last year.

 

[Hodge]

That’s way too much. Essentially three late firsts and a former 3rd rounder.

Noooo not a former 3rd rounder! Please, take Celebrini, but not the piece of shit defenseman some other team drafted in the 3rd round 6 years ago.

 

[TheBeard]

Noooo not a former 3rd rounder! Please, take Celebrini, but not the piece of shit defenseman some other team drafted in the 3rd round 6 years ago.

Ok. Take that out of the equation and it’s three firsts for a guy who’s a good 2nd pairing dman who’s gonna want to be paid like a top pairing dman. If he’s the best guy on the market then so be it.

 

[Hodge]

Ok. Take that out of the equation and it’s three firsts for a guy who’s a good 2nd pairing dman who’s gonna want to be paid like a top pairing dman. If he’s the best guy on the market then so be it.

It's not "three firsts" though, it's specifically a late 1st and early 2nd in a notoriously weak draft and a prospect who's tracking to be a 4C.

That's a laughably low offer for Byram and contains nothing that's of any use to the Sabres.

 

[Patty Ice]

Because our development of Bystedt and Thrun hasn’t been successful. Both are on track to bust.

What were your expectations of both of them? Thrun may just be a 3rd pairing/7th dman type that people like to scapegoat but he has shown himself to be a NHLer and Bystedt is still on track to be a center that could anchor the 3rd line or at worst the 4th.

Relative to where they were drafted or the cost of acquisition, I'm good with how they've been developing.