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Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

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Pinkfloyd said:
He's been better but he's still below what you'd want out of a 3rd liner and I don't think we're set up all that well to use him well as a 3rd liner in the near future. I also prefer to have the picks. Yeah a 3rd and a 6th aren't needle movers but they can be useful to improve higher picks to a small degree and we're short a pick in this draft anyway. I wouldn't want to bring him back with the intent of making him a 4th liner when we have Dellandrea, Goodrow, and Grundstrom still under contract for next season. I'd rather shoot for filling out the top nine with more productive players.

Eklund-Celebrini-Toffoli
Zetterlund-xxx-Smith
Kovalenko-Wennberg-Graf
Grundstrom-Goodrow-Dellandrea

And with guys like Chernyshov, Musty, and Halttunen turning pro probably next year, the spot being kept open is probably better for the rebuild at this stage.
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What have Kovalenko and Graf done to earn roster spots for next season, let alone spots in the top nine? Kunin is clearly better than both of them.
 
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Pinkfloyd said:
He's been better but he's still below what you'd want out of a 3rd liner and I don't think we're set up all that well to use him well as a 3rd liner in the near future. I also prefer to have the picks. Yeah a 3rd and a 6th aren't needle movers but they can be useful to improve higher picks to a small degree and we're short a pick in this draft anyway. I wouldn't want to bring him back with the intent of making him a 4th liner when we have Dellandrea, Goodrow, and Grundstrom still under contract for next season. I'd rather shoot for filling out the top nine with more productive players.

Eklund-Celebrini-Toffoli
Zetterlund-xxx-Smith
Kovalenko-Wennberg-Graf
Grundstrom-Goodrow-Dellandrea

And with guys like Chernyshov, Musty, and Halttunen turning pro probably next year, the spot being kept open is probably better for the rebuild at this stage.
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I hesitate to ever build out rosters where you're expecting multiple non-elite prospects to earn top 9 jobs. It's one thing when Smith/Celebrini do it as top draft picks. Presuming it happens with Kovalenko, Graf, or any of the others is just unwise to count on/plan for. It's how you wind up with Lean Bergmann types in the top 9 on opening night.

Look at that 3rd line and ask what other NHL teams would those two be opening night wingers for? Answer is probably not any that expect to be outside of the bottom 3 in the league standings. Time to get ourselves out of the frugal tank mode of thinking after this year.
 
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Hodge said:
What have Kovalenko and Graf done to earn roster spots for next season, let alone spots in the top nine? Kunin is clearly better than both of them.
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Kovalenko was the tipping point for getting the Blackwood trade done. He's already shown his versatility here and if he stays healthy through the rest of the season, he'd have 73 games under his belt with a new contract on the way. The reality is that Kovalenko has a top nine spot that's his to lose. I don't think Graf has earned a roster spot and isn't better than Kunin currently but as a rebuilding club with a lot of wingers about to turn pro, they're going to need a top nine spot for one of these kids to play their way into. Keeping Kunin when nothing he does is good enough to forego whatever he'd get in a rental situation and we have plenty of 4th liners under contract next season and plenty of kids that will be working towards that top-9 lineup spot doesn't make sense. It's a numbers game moving forward and Kunin should be on the outs.
STL Shark said:
I hesitate to ever build out rosters where you're expecting multiple non-elite prospects to earn top 9 jobs. It's one thing when Smith/Celebrini do it as top draft picks. Presuming it happens with Kovalenko, Graf, or any of the others is just unwise to count on/plan for. It's how you wind up with Lean Bergmann types in the top 9 on opening night.

Look at that 3rd line and ask what other NHL teams would those two be opening night wingers for? Answer is probably not any that expect to be outside of the bottom 3 in the league standings. Time to get ourselves out of the frugal tank mode of thinking after this year.
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I'm not. The only one in that lineup that is expected to earn a top nine job is Graf. Kovalenko has already earned that job here. Everyone else outside of Graf has already earned that job. It doesn't matter what other NHL teams would have Kovalenko and Graf be their opening night 3rd line wingers because we're not those teams. We're a rebuilding team filling out a lineup. We're not set up yet to get out of the frugal tank mode of thinking because we have no blue line to depend on for that and we're more than one offseason off from fixing that issue.
 
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Pinkfloyd said:
Kovalenko was the tipping point for getting the Blackwood trade done. He's already shown his versatility here and if he stays healthy through the rest of the season, he'd have 73 games under his belt with a new contract on the way. The reality is that Kovalenko has a top nine spot that's his to lose. I don't think Graf has earned a roster spot and isn't better than Kunin currently but as a rebuilding club with a lot of wingers about to turn pro, they're going to need a top nine spot for one of these kids to play their way into. Keeping Kunin when nothing he does is good enough to forego whatever he'd get in a rental situation and we have plenty of 4th liners under contract next season and plenty of kids that will be working towards that top-9 lineup spot doesn't make sense. It's a numbers game moving forward and Kunin should be on the outs.
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Kovalenko being part of the return for Blackwood doesn't guarantee him a roster spot for next season. At most, it guarantees him a qualifying offer but even that is contingent on him coming back from injury and playing at a similar or better level than what he's shown so far. The actual reality is that nobody knows what Kovalenko is at the NHL level or if he even belongs in the league. You can't go into a season with two players like that penciled into your top nine which is why extending Kunin or replacing him with a comparable veteran in free agency makes sense. If Kovalenko and Graf are as good as you say they are they should have no problem beating Kunin out for ice time and pushing him down to the fourth line (where he still has value).
 
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Hodge said:
Kovalenko being part of the return for Blackwood doesn't guarantee him a roster spot for next season. At most, it guarantees him a qualifying offer but even that is contingent on him coming back from injury and playing at a similar or better level than what he's shown so far. The actual reality is that nobody knows what Kovalenko is at the NHL level or if he even belongs in the league. You can't go into a season with two players like that penciled into your top nine which is why extending Kunin or replacing him with a comparable veteran in free agency makes sense. If Kovalenko and Graf are as good as you say they are they should have no problem beating Kunin out for ice time and pushing him down to the fourth line (where he still has value).
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Yeah it does because he's the reason the deal was too good for Grier to pass up on. The team has a much different view of Kovalenko than you do and their actions will reflect that when they re-sign him and he's in their top-9 next season. And yeah, a rebuilding team can absolutely go into a season with two inexperienced wingers on a 3rd line. And if none of the kids step up into that role, it's not difficult to go out and find someone to be a stopgap depth winger. There's not a single good reason to keep Kunin past the trade deadline. He's not a good 3rd liner and we have plenty of 4th liners under contract for next season.
 
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I think instead of expecting the 3rd line to include both Kovalenko and Graf you have one top 9 spot those guys can fight for.

Eklund - Celebrini - Toffoli
Zetterlund - Smith - xxx
Kovalenko/Graf - Wenberg - Kunin/ufa
Goodrow - Kunin/ufa - Dellandrea
Grundstrom, ???

I think the Sharks need to add at least 2 FWs from outside the current group. Ideally the top 6 addition is a wing that can play C in a pinch. I think it is important to give Smith the opportunity to transition to C. I would then with bring back Kunin and sign a 3rd liner or if Kunin is not coming back then pick up 2 bottom 6 FWs. This would ensure that the best option between Graf and Kovalenko is in the top 9. If both show they deserve to be top 9 then Kunin/ufa can drop to the 4th.

Also it seems Warsofsky doesn’t see Goodrow as a C since he has been exclusively at W even when there was no clear option for 4C.
 
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gaucholoco3 said:
I think instead of expecting the 3rd line to include both Kovalenko and Graf you have one top 9 spot those guys can fight for.

Eklund - Celebrini - Toffoli
Zetterlund - Smith - xxx
Kovalenko/Graf - Wenberg - Kunin/ufa
Goodrow - Kunin/ufa - Dellandrea
Grundstrom, ???

I think the Sharks need to add at least 2 FWs from outside the current group. Ideally the top 6 addition is a wing that can play C in a pinch. I think it is important to give Smith the opportunity to transition to C. I would then with bring back Kunin and sign a 3rd liner or if Kunin is not coming back then pick up 2 bottom 6 FWs. This would ensure that the best option between Graf and Kovalenko is in the top 9. If both show they deserve to be top 9 then Kunin/ufa can drop to the 4th.

Also it seems Warsofsky doesn’t see Goodrow as a C since he has been exclusively at W even when there was no clear option for 4C.
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The way I see it is that there's two open top-9 spots. The one Granlund will leave behind and a winger spot. Kovalenko is almost certainly in the top-9 unless he's traded for blue line help. Considering the rebuilding nature of the Sharks at this stage, I'd rather use that open winger spot to have guys like Chernyshov, Graf, Halttunen, Musty, and any other winger prospect we may end up with playing for it. If they all show that they aren't ready, it won't be terribly difficult to bring in a stopgap measure to fill in. I agree that one of the two spots will be filled by someone that can play center but it's possible that that player ends up being Hagens or Misa if we miss out on Schaefer. At that point, I'd likely look to fill that other top-9 winger spot with a veteran but it sure as shit won't be Kunin. It's time to move on from him and look for better players to fill vacant roles.

As for Goodrow not being a C, that's fine if that's how Warsofsky sees it but since he has used Dellandrea at center multiple times already this season, I think he can make due with him at 4C next year and put Goodrow and Grundstrom on the wings. If they need an extra body, use Cardwell. If you want to bring in help for the top-9, keeping Kunin is not the answer.
 
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Pinkfloyd said:
The way I see it is that there's two open top-9 spots. The one Granlund will leave behind and a winger spot. Kovalenko is almost certainly in the top-9 unless he's traded for blue line help. Considering the rebuilding nature of the Sharks at this stage, I'd rather use that open winger spot to have guys like Chernyshov, Graf, Halttunen, Musty, and any other winger prospect we may end up with playing for it. If they all show that they aren't ready, it won't be terribly difficult to bring in a stopgap measure to fill in. I agree that one of the two spots will be filled by someone that can play center but it's possible that that player ends up being Hagens or Misa if we miss out on Schaefer. At that point, I'd likely look to fill that other top-9 winger spot with a veteran but it sure as shit won't be Kunin. It's time to move on from him and look for better players to fill vacant roles.

As for Goodrow not being a C, that's fine if that's how Warsofsky sees it but since he has used Dellandrea at center multiple times already this season, I think he can make due with him at 4C next year and put Goodrow and Grundstrom on the wings. If they need an extra body, use Cardwell. If you want to bring in help for the top-9, keeping Kunin is not the answer.
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You say you want to move on from Kunin to fill his role with a better player yet you say that you only want Kovalenko or prospects to fill the top 9 roles all of which are substantially worse than Kunin as a player.

I get the importance of giving young guys an opportunity but expecting Zetterlund - Smith - Kovalenko or prospect to be a viable 2nd line next year is a disaster. They absolutely need to bring in a top 6 forward to play with Smith even if they don’t completely fix the D. If they make big moves to field a respectable D corps then I would advocate bringing in top 6 forwards. One to push Toffoli to the 3rd line and another to drive play with Smith.
 
gaucholoco3 said:
You say you want to move on from Kunin to fill his role with a better player yet you say that you only want Kovalenko or prospects to fill the top 9 roles all of which are substantially worse than Kunin as a player.

I get the importance of giving young guys an opportunity but expecting Zetterlund - Smith - Kovalenko or prospect to be a viable 2nd line next year is a disaster. They absolutely need to bring in a top 6 forward to play with Smith even if they don’t completely fix the D. If they make big moves to field a respectable D corps then I would advocate bringing in top 6 forwards. One to push Toffoli to the 3rd line and another to drive play with Smith.
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Kovalenko is better than Kunin. As for moving on from Kunin with a better player, that's if you're getting an external acquisition as opposed to developing players that we already have like rebuilding teams tend to do.

I'm not expecting Zetterlund-Smith-Kovalenko to be the 2nd line next year but even if it is, who cares? We're still rebuilding. Zetterlund-Granlund-Smith may not be a viable 2nd line but it is useful at helping to develop Smith's NHL game. What I view the 2nd line next year to look like depends on what happens at the draft. If we draft Misa or Hagens, I expect that pick to be the 3C and Wennberg to center Smith on the 2nd line. Again, it may not be a viable 2nd line for the purposes of competing but it is viable for development.

Next year, even with desired improvements on the blue line, it is still going to be about player development because Smith certainly needs it and a potential top pick forward will certainly need it. And if Schaefer is missed out on, we're very likely not going to have a blue line optimized for winning games consistently. We still have Walman, Ferraro, Liljegren, Thrun, and Vlasic signed for next year with a somewhat likely intent to have Dickinson in the fold. If you're thinking next year needs to be more competitive, I'm with you but more competitive and playoff caliber are two different things here. We're still likely to be a bottom five team next year so the focus should still be on developing the young talent we're building around.
 
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Anomie2029 said:
Seeing Goodrow in projected lines for next season is making me ill. He should be waived down to the ECHL.
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I mean, depending on how aggressive you want to be with changes, I'm perfectly happy if the team buys out Goodrow and Vlasic before next season and looking for more cost-effective veteran presences in depth roles.
 
Pinkfloyd said:
I mean, depending on how aggressive you want to be with changes, I'm perfectly happy if the team buys out Goodrow and Vlasic before next season and looking for more cost-effective veteran presences in depth roles.
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Goodrow's cap hit, if bought out this summer, would be $863,333 for the 27-28 and 28-29 seasons.

I don't think that will impact Eklund, Celebrini, Smith, or Askarov's next deals.

I'd be quite happy to buy out both and give their slots to players who either have a future or players who can actually play at a vaguely NHL level.
 
It’s funny how Smith has a good game and people here want to complain about he should be in the AHL. Goodrow has goals in two games recently and people want to buy him out when there is absolutely zero chance the Sharks need the cap space next season.

Its like people don’t want players to do well and just want to complain.
 
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Pinkfloyd said:
Kovalenko is better than Kunin. As for moving on from Kunin with a better player, that's if you're getting an external acquisition as opposed to developing players that we already have like rebuilding teams tend to do.

I'm not expecting Zetterlund-Smith-Kovalenko to be the 2nd line next year but even if it is, who cares? We're still rebuilding. Zetterlund-Granlund-Smith may not be a viable 2nd line but it is useful at helping to develop Smith's NHL game. What I view the 2nd line next year to look like depends on what happens at the draft. If we draft Misa or Hagens, I expect that pick to be the 3C and Wennberg to center Smith on the 2nd line. Again, it may not be a viable 2nd line for the purposes of competing but it is viable for development.

Next year, even with desired improvements on the blue line, it is still going to be about player development because Smith certainly needs it and a potential top pick forward will certainly need it. And if Schaefer is missed out on, we're very likely not going to have a blue line optimized for winning games consistently. We still have Walman, Ferraro, Liljegren, Thrun, and Vlasic signed for next year with a somewhat likely intent to have Dickinson in the fold. If you're thinking next year needs to be more competitive, I'm with you but more competitive and playoff caliber are two different things here. We're still likely to be a bottom five team next year so the focus should still be on developing the young talent we're building around.
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Having Zetterlund - Smith - Kovalenko or Zetterlund - Wenberg - Smith be a second line is absolutely not good for developing Smith at all. The reason Smith plays well with Granlund is because he is a legitimate top 6 C.

Also I think it is likely that none of the top 4 in the draft play in the NHL next season. Expecting Misa or Hagens to be the 3C with the leftovers the Sharks would have would also not be good for development.

It is important to try and take advantage of when Celebrini is cost controlled. If he is making $11 mil per year he is not providing as much value as he will in his 3rd year of his ELC. I do think patience is important but at some point winning games needs to be the goal. This should be the last year where losing is the goal. They need to start trying next season.
 
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gaucholoco3 said:
It’s funny how Smith has a good game and people here want to complain about he should be in the AHL. Goodrow has goals in two games recently and people want to buy him out when there is absolutely zero chance the Sharks need the cap space next season.

Its like people don’t want players to do well and just want to complain.
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I want to watch NHL players and players with a future. I don't want to watch bad retreads play their way out of the league.

Martin Jones had good games sometimes, but that doesn't mean I wanted to watch him anymore.
 
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gaucholoco3 said:
It’s funny how Smith has a good game and people here want to complain about he should be in the AHL. Goodrow has goals in two games recently and people want to buy him out when there is absolutely zero chance the Sharks need the cap space next season.

Its like people don’t want players to do well and just want to complain.
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Goodrow and Smith are not even remotely related to one another. Goodrow's recent scoring streak has bumped his point total for the year up to 6 points in 44 games. He has fewer points on the season than Jan Rutta. By any measure, he's been pitiful this year.
 
Going into next season, I feel as though we need to jettison Goodrow, as well as either Dellandrea or Grundstom. I love having Goodrow around as an example for the younger players, but he looks absolutely cooked most nights. The other two are just terribly inconsistent in their effort. A fourth line consisting of: Kunin-Delandrea-Graf, or Grundstrom-Kunin-Graf seems far more serviceable than what we're currently putting out on a regular basis. Adding at least one top six forward (on top of replacing Granlund if he's dealt) would certainly help push people down the lineup, and create better matchups.
 
gaucholoco3 said:
Having Zetterlund - Smith - Kovalenko or Zetterlund - Wenberg - Smith be a second line is absolutely not good for developing Smith at all. The reason Smith plays well with Granlund is because he is a legitimate top 6 C.

Also I think it is likely that none of the top 4 in the draft play in the NHL next season. Expecting Misa or Hagens to be the 3C with the leftovers the Sharks would have would also not be good for development.

It is important to try and take advantage of when Celebrini is cost controlled. If he is making $11 mil per year he is not providing as much value as he will in his 3rd year of his ELC. I do think patience is important but at some point winning games needs to be the goal. This should be the last year where losing is the goal. They need to start trying next season.
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I wholeheartedly disagree that those lines would be bad for Smith’s development. Wennberg may only be a middle six center quality but good enough to help Smith. Zetterlund also does his role well enough at that level to not put extra responsibility on Smith and do something he needs offensively to be effective. Can it be better? Yea and if you can go for it but if they draft Hagens or Misa, Smith is not the only priority for development to account for. Smith needs to learn to play with solid 2nd liners or middle six caliber players too. This is the NHL and if he expects to be a building block, his game quality can’t be solely dependent on a player like Granlund being there. Granlund is what Smith should aspire to be in terms of how well he plays with players almost regardless of talent level.

Also, it is not inherently bad for development for a top pick to be on the 3rd line and the team is capable of putting talent on their wings that can help their development and should.

I agree they should try to win but it doesn’t mean they will. It’s rare to go from a last place to the playoffs. It’s possible but not realistic and making next year another development focused year. Celebrini’s elc would be nice to take advantage of and load up on but that’s a pipe dream at this stage and it was always going to be year three that they’d have the best odds on and that only happens if they get favorable results this and next season on developing guys other than Celebrini.

Next year, I do believe Grier will make a few moves to make the blue line more competitive but it’s likely to still hold the team back enough to not take a huge next step but a lot of the younger guys will.
 
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