Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[TheBeard]

Honestly, what are the pros and cons of bringing Kreider aboard if the price is minimal?

 

[OverTheLine]

Honestly, what are the pros and cons of bringing Kreider aboard if the price is minimal?

I have no idea what the Rangers assets are, but I wouldn’t mind sending them Granlund (who addresses their center woes nicely) for the Kreider contract (which will be an absolute boat anchor soon if not now) if there’s some really valuable draft stock or prospects coming our way.

It would be good for them, but I’m not sure if they have the means to make it happen. I’m sure some other contenders would be willing to pay well for Granny at the deadline.

 

[Star Platinum]

Some** sharks fans.

Nah, we must paint with the widest possible brush so that we and we alone are the smartest.

 

[TheBeard]

I have no idea what the Rangers assets are, but I wouldn’t mind sending them Granlund (who addresses their center woes nicely) for the Kreider contract (which will be an absolute boat anchor soon if not now) if there’s some really valuable draft stock or prospects coming our way.

It would be good for them, but I’m not sure if they have the means to make it happen. I’m sure some other contenders would be willing to pay well for Granny at the deadline.

The only issue with Granlund is we would most definitely be taking back salary since we can't retain. and frankly we have the space to not have to go out of our way to find a third team and lose out on draft capital.

 

[ChompChomp]

I was five years old when that happened! I know some people on this forum absolutely love to brag about how ancient they are, but I don't think most of us have a clear recollection of Patrick Marleau as a rookie.

I think there's more of us "seniors" on this board than people want to acknowledge (I would say that most Sharks fans have no clear recollection, but this board is not a representative sample of "most" Sharks fans), but I agree Marleau's rookie year is, sadly, too far back to consider as a data point. Different GM, coaching staff, different NHL too.

As someone the same age as Thornton and Marleau and had just graduated HS when they were drafted into the league, well, thanks everyone for the reminder of how old I am.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I think there's more of us "seniors" on this board than people want to acknowledge (I would say that most Sharks fans have no clear recollection, but this board is not a representative sample of "most" Sharks fans), but I agree Marleau's rookie year is, sadly, too far back to consider as a data point. Different GM, coaching staff, different NHL too.

As someone the same age as Thornton and Marleau and had just graduated HS when they were drafted into the league, well, thanks everyone for the reminder of how old I am.

Hey, you're probably right about the age distribution on this forum... but I'm probably right about "don't have a clear recollection of Marleau's rookie year".

 

[OrrNumber4]

It's also different because the technology landscape was different. There were so many narratives surrounding that team, and the only outlet was print media. The dominant narrative around Marleau was that he was handily outperforming Thornton (the #1 pick). Even aside from that, fan impressions were based on the eye test, counting numbers, and news articles. Keep in mind that many games were not even televised; highlights were not on-demand, and forget about it if you were not in the local market. The Sharks were also a better team (compared to today) with some decent talent; did 18-year-old Marleau deserve to play over Murray Craven or Bernie Nicholls? Probably not.

The story about Marleau was that in his second year, the coaching staff basically told him that he didn't have the skill to become an elite scoring forward, so his path to stardom would have to be as an elite two-way talent. Marleau disagreed with that assessment, and there was much teeth-grinding over who was correct, but Sutter was insistent that he be a more "complete" player and Marleau ultimately acquiesced.

 

[Cas]

Honestly, what are the pros and cons of bringing Kreider aboard if the price is minimal?

How much are we being bribed with?

 

[ChompChomp]

The Sharks were also a better team (compared to today) with some decent talent

As someone who does vividly remember that era, man was 95-96 and 96-97 terrible, but oh boy, do I miss the days that you could all of a sudden become a playoff team (as the Sharks did in 97-98) because there was no salary cap. So it was easy enough for them to trade for Vernon, and sign (either that season or the season prior) Craven, Nicholls, Matteau, Ricci (trade), Bill Houlder, and Granato.

 

[TheBeard]

How much are we being bribed with?

Dude was a 40 goal scorer last year and even in a down year he's on pace for 30. Is he worth his salary now? Nope. But having him play second line wing so Eklund can play with Celebrini leaving Zetterlund to play on the thrd line with Wennberg would be better than what we're doing now.

 

[matt trick]

We could certainly use a top 6 winger, and his cap hit isn't an issue for the next two years. I'd love to have Kreider. Something is rotten in NY, but even if Kreider is part of the problem, playing with a young fun team could rejuvenate him for a year and half before moving him to a contender. I'd rather have a declining Kreider for two years than signing another Tofolli type for 4. Glad we signed Tofolli, but that contract will be bad in Y4 (if not Y3).

 

[Sharkz4Fun]

The last teenager they probably watched play for the Sharks scored 4 goals in his 3rd NHL game, so you can understand their impatience. I mean, why hasn't Smith or Celebrini done that yet? What is wrong with them?

Sarcasm aside, this is a great example. Would her example have been Marleau, which, if that is the type of player Smith ultimately becomes, would be a massive fail? So odd lol. She definitely is a great example of having delusions of grandeur though.

The hype for Celebrini isn't about his production but the eye test. The kid doesn't look out of place. Smith looks completely outmatched out there everywhere.

 

[Patty Ice]

Many people say that Smith will definitely improve and be ready in 1-2 years, but this is just blind faith. Undoubtedly, he sees his partners well and is able to give a good pass. That's where his strengths end. I used to hope that he could become a second Logan Cooley for us, but that's not possible. Definitely not enough maneuverability and speed.

Who made a Chicken Little account? Cancel the SNOG, we got ourselves the real Nostradamus here.

 

[coooldude]

Marleau, which, if that is the type of player Smith ultimately becomes, would be a massive fail

I don't think that Smith ending with 1700 NHL games and 1200 NHL points would be a massive fail... it might mean he didn't hit his points-producing ceiling, but come on...

 

[Sharkz4Fun]

I don't think that Smith ending with 1700 NHL games and 1200 NHL points would be a massive fail... it might mean he didn't hit his points-producing ceiling, but come on...

Again, has nothing to do with production. If both Patrick and his supporters are happy with him having the most games played in the professional history of the sport yet never winning a single trophy, even individual, then so be it. My stance of Marleau will never change. I think he is a better example of a passenger than someone who frequents airports and I honestly don't know of a better description of the word passenger than Patrick Marleau.

I think Smith's peak was always destined to be this time of the leagues Marleau/Huberdeau. Of course, time will tell.

 

[coooldude]

Again, has nothing to do with production. If both Patrick and his supporters are happy with him having the most games played in the professional history of the sport yet never winning a single trophy, even individual, then so be it. My stance of Marleau will never change. I think he is a better example of a passenger than someone who frequents airports and I honestly don't know of a better description of the word passenger than Patrick Marleau.

I think Smith's peak was always destined to be this time of the leagues Marleau/Huberdeau. Of course, time will tell.

I'm not advocating for Marleau being anything other than a highly versatile passenger.

However, first you said that Smith having a Marleau career would be massively disappointing, and now you're saying that you're expecting it. Which is it?

 

[Sharkz4Fun]

I'm not advocating for Marleau being anything other than a highly versatile passenger.

However, first you said that Smith having a Marleau career would be massively disappointing, and now you're saying that you're expecting it. Which is it?

I would hope that a 4th OVR pick would put up 1,000 - 1,200 points. I definitely expect that, though I'm aware that's an extremely obtuse expectation. If Smith ever gets to this point, I expect it to be in the Marleau way: Never anything more than garbage time points and point streaks.

However, I don't think he gets anywhere close because he isn't fast and isn't durable clearly, and instead needs to go the Huberdeau way: Hone his game as much as possible playing with this generations Crosby/Barkov before management eventually moves him for a far more complete player. DW made the mistake with Marleau and I do hope MG won't make that same mistake.

I also want to add that I admit I was totally against picking Leonard at #4. I still think during the draft that trading down was always the best option for once, but I think in hindsight picking Smith over Leonard will be a detrimental mistake. Even Gauthier has looked far better than Smith in the games against the Ducks this year.

 

[Star Platinum]

The hype for Celebrini isn't about his production but the eye test. The kid doesn't look out of place. Smith looks completely outmatched out there everywhere.

But that doesn't mean he'll always be overmatched.

The only thing that concerns me a little bit about Smith is that his skating doesn't seem to be a huge asset for him. Not all that fast and doesn't seem all that deceptive. I assume that he'll get stronger over time and that the physical part will be less of an issue going forward.

 

[Barrie22]

I would hope that a 4th OVR pick would put up 1,000 - 1,200 points. I definitely expect that, though I'm aware that's an extremely obtuse expectation. If Smith ever gets to this point, I expect it to be in the Marleau way: Never anything more than garbage time points and point streaks.

However, I don't think he gets anywhere close because he isn't fast and isn't durable clearly, and instead needs to go the Huberdeau way: Hone his game as much as possible playing with this generations Crosby/Barkov before management eventually moves him for a far more complete player. DW made the mistake with Marleau and I do hope MG won't make that same mistake.

I also want to add that I admit I was totally against picking Leonard at #4. I still think during the draft that trading down was always the best option for once, but I think in hindsight picking Smith over Leonard will be a detrimental mistake. Even Gauthier has looked far better than Smith in the games against the Ducks this year.

The same leonard that has gotten worse now that he no longer has smith carrying him on his line?

 

[coooldude]

I would hope that a 4th OVR pick would put up 1,000 - 1,200 points. I definitely expect that, though I'm aware that's an extremely obtuse expectation. If Smith ever gets to this point, I expect it to be in the Marleau way: Never anything more than garbage time points and point streaks.

However, I don't think he gets anywhere close because he isn't fast and isn't durable clearly, and instead needs to go the Huberdeau way: Hone his game as much as possible playing with this generations Crosby/Barkov before management eventually moves him for a far more complete player. DW made the mistake with Marleau and I do hope MG won't make that same mistake.

I also want to add that I admit I was totally against picking Leonard at #4. I still think during the draft that trading down was always the best option for once, but I think in hindsight picking Smith over Leonard will be a detrimental mistake. Even Gauthier has looked far better than Smith in the games against the Ducks this year.

Your expectations are too high.

Here's the draft history for Centers (feel free to play around with F, all Skaters, etc).

• 4OA centers weighted average is 768.7 games, 212.9 goals, 339 assists.
• 1OA centers weighted average is 871.4 games, 312.8 goals, 471.6 assists.

Here's the list of historical points in the NHL.

• Over 1000 points is a top 99 all time career.
• 1200 points is #52.

Leonard hasn't played a single NHL game and he looks a lot like Gauthier - cave man IQ, hero hockey and shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot again. Both benefit mightily by being fully matured early on in their life. If we didn't go with Smith, which sure, we could have gone other directions, neither Leonard nor a Gauthier-type would have been on the list before Smith.

 

[Sharkz4Fun]

But that doesn't mean he'll always be overmatched.

The only thing that concerns me a little bit about Smith is that his skating doesn't seem to be a huge asset for him. Not all that fast and doesn't seem all that deceptive. I assume that he'll get stronger over time and that the physical part will be less of an issue going forward.

But it's like you have to teach him to compete harder. A tale as old as time and some people have it and some don't. It's why coaches like torts exist. Smith is seemingly being coddled, and staying with Marleau certainly doesn't help. If they had torts coaching Smith probably has 15 games this year.

The same leonard that has gotten worse now that he no longer has smith carrying him on his line?

Well over a PPG still? Haven't watched a single second of college this year but that seems very good. Im also, again, talking playstyle, and that doesn't change with who they're playing with.

Your expectations are too high.

Here's the draft history for Centers (feel free to play around with F, all Skaters, etc).

• 4OA centers weighted average is 768.7 games, 212.9 goals, 339 assists.
• 1OA centers weighted average is 871.4 games, 312.8 goals, 471.6 assists.

Here's the list of historical points in the NHL.

• Over 1000 points is a top 99 all time career.
• 1200 points is #52.

Leonard hasn't played a single NHL game and he looks a lot like Gauthier - cave man IQ, hero hockey and shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot again. Both benefit mightily by being fully matured early on in their life. If we didn't go with Smith, which sure, we could have gone other directions, neither Leonard nor a Gauthier-type would have been on the list before Smith.

Expectation was the wrong word, but I guess I'd just use hope since if you balanced it out between guys like pavs in the 7th round having crazy careers, a 4th OV F would easily be in the 1,000ish range. The type of player they need to compliment Celebrini for a winning team is exactly a Leonard/Gauthier type. Celebrini does not need someone to pass to him or to help someone pass to others on the 2nd line, he needs a PWF for not only his line, but in general to help sway games ala Malkin, or even Wilson.

Like I said, it's all hindsight. They drafted Smith without knowing they would have Celebrini, and the point is that I think time will show Smith is not a long term asset for this team and the quicker they realize that the better.

 

[TheBeard]

But it's like you have to teach him to compete harder. A tale as old as time and some people have it and some don't. It's why coaches like torts exist. Smith is seemingly being coddled, and staying with Marleau certainly doesn't help. If they had torts coaching Smith probably has 15 games this year.

Well over a PPG still? Haven't watched a single second of college this year but that seems very good. Im also, again, talking playstyle, and that doesn't change with who they're playing with.

Expectation was the wrong word, but I guess I'd just use hope since if you balanced it out between guys like pavs in the 7th round having crazy careers, a 4th OV F would easily be in the 1,000ish range. The type of player they need to compliment Celebrini for a winning team is exactly a Leonard/Gauthier type. Celebrini does not need someone to pass to him or to help someone pass to others on the 2nd line, he needs a PWF for not only his line, but in general to help sway games ala Malkin, or even Wilson.

Like I said, it's all hindsight. They drafted Smith without knowing they would have Celebrini, and the point is that I think time will show Smith is not a long term asset for this team and the quicker they realize that the better.

I've been hard on him but even I can see the occasional flashes of brilliance that could make him a legit star. He's just overmatched right now. He's 19. They can afford to coddle him now because of Celebrini's rise. The pressure is off Will to be the rookie breath of fresh air. If we're having this same discussion this time next year then that's a different story.

 

[Barrie22]

I've been hard on him but even I can see the occasional flashes of brilliance that could make him a legit star. He's just overmatched right now. He's 19. They can afford to coddle him now because of Celebrini's rise. The pressure is off Will to be the rookie breath of fresh air. If we're having this same discussion this time next year then that's a different story.

We are seeing the exact same thing eklund was like in his first 18 nhl games. He had flashes that shows he belongs but followed by flashes of being overwhelmed. Eklund had a little bit of bad decisions with regards to his development but once he got to the nhl it took about 60 games for him to show his true self.

 

[Sharkz4Fun]

We are seeing the exact same thing eklund was like in his first 18 nhl games. He had flashes that shows he belongs but followed by flashes of being overwhelmed. Eklund had a little bit of bad decisions with regards to his development but once he got to the nhl it took about 60 games for him to show his true self.

Eklund also fought a dude who was like 6'6 at 19 in the AHL and dealt with a severe injury. It might be a funny example, but it's a great one that Eklund has always had that dog in him. He's a great example of growing into a role and his development doesn't fit Smith's situation at all.