Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Bizz]

Kostin was one of our more productive forwards in the 2nd half of last year, so unless he somehow falls off a cliff I doubt one of the prospects takes his spot no matter how good they look.

 

[Hodge]

It's this fallacy that you ALWAYS pedal where you consistently contradict yourself (always on the contrarian side). Like citing Kunin's goal scoring and 1st round pedigree when someone that to date has been as good or better of a goal scorer on the ice and also has 1st round pedigree is waiver fodder because you say so.

I acknowledge that he's not a great all around player when he isn't scoring and that he's not a guy that has the best attitude, but at 6'4, good skating, and able to finish at a 2nd or 3rd line clip, he has value at $2M and is a guy that wouldn't be a bad fit next to Will Smith to start his career (with the goal being find him a big bodied puck retriever that can finish and shelter them). That is all the point has ever been.

Kostin was traded for a 7th round pick and salary dump 4 months ago. Objectively speaking, the contrarian opinion would be the one claiming he has any value. I'm not sure why I'm considered contrarian for consistently coming down on the side of whatever the actual NHL trade, draft or free agency market says a player's value is.

 

[weastern bias]

Kostin was traded for a 7th round pick and salary dump 4 months ago. Objectively speaking, the contrarian opinion would be the one claiming he has any value. I'm not sure why I'm considered contrarian for consistently coming down on the side of whatever the actual NHL trade, draft or free agency market says a player's value is.

That was a team that needs cap space trading a player with a year left on his contract to a team that can absorb his whole contract

You know as well as anyone that trade value doesn't exist in a vacuum, Kostin as an expiring rental this TDL is not the same asset as Kostin on the Red Wings last year with term on his deal

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

One thing that never gets brought up during the weekly Kunin hate fests is that sports medicine professionals are increasingly of the opinion that it takes 18 months to 2 years for athletes to fully recover from ACL surgery and return to their previous level of performance.

We should see a version of Kunin this season much more in line with the player who averaged 17 goals per 82 games over the three seasons prior to his injury. He was taken 15th overall for a reason. There's a legit 15+15 power winger in there which every team would love to have in their middle six.

Who is this player that every team would love to have in their middle 6? Because, even prior to the injury, Kunin could only fetch a 3rd in trade as a 24 year old RFA. If NHL GMs valued him anywhere nearly as highly around the league as you claim, he would have easily netted far more. The appeal to imagined authority fails again.

 

[Hodge]

That was a team that needs cap space trading a player with a year left on his contract to a team that can absorb his whole contract

You know as well as anyone that trade value doesn't exist in a vacuum, Kostin as an expiring rental this TDL is not the same asset as Kostin on the Red Wings last year with term on his deal

If you're right and Kostin was considered a cap dump at $2M, barely over the amount you can bury in the minors, that says everything about how the league perceives him as a player. As does the fact that he's been traded for essentially nothing twice before as well.

Who is this player that every team would love to have in their middle 6? Because, even prior to the injury, Kunin could only fetch a 3rd in trade as a 24 year old RFA. If NHL GMs valued him anywhere nearly as highly around the league as you claim, he would have easily netted far more. The appeal to imagined authority fails again.

Conveniently ignoring the fact Kunin was traded for the 37th overall pick, 70th overall pick and a still effective Nick Bonino after his breakout season in 2020.

 

[weastern bias]

If you're right and Kostin was considered a cap dump at $2M, barely over the amount you can bury in the minors, that says everything about how the league perceives him as a player. As does the fact that he's been traded for essentially nothing twice before as well.

Again, term makes a difference, no one wants to be locked in to a contract for a depth player with term on their deal

Conveniently ignoring the fact Kunin was traded for the 37th overall pick, 70th overall pick and a still effective Nick Bonino after his breakout season in 2020.

2 years later he was traded for John Leonard and a 3rd, and now 2 more years later he wasn't qualified by the worst team in the cap era, player values can also go down as their performance dwindles

 

[TealManV]

Who is this player that every team would love to have in their middle 6? Because, even prior to the injury, Kunin could only fetch a 3rd in trade as a 24 year old RFA. If NHL GMs valued him anywhere nearly as highly around the league as you claim, he would have easily netted far more. The appeal to imagined authority fails again.

I’d also point out that Kunin probably wasn’t worth a 3rd at that point. Grier was just given the job. His stated goal was to make the Sharks more competitive. He talked to his old buddy John Hynes who was coaching the Preds. Hynes told Grier that Kunin competed and tried hard (even though it wasn’t enough for the Preds to keep him). Obviously Kunin wasn’t that valuable to the Wild and Preds since they both moved him while he was still young with a pedigree. And now Grier has re-signed him to a one year deal, which is probably his last chance to really prove himself at this point, like a Zadina or Kostin.

Kunin is a former 15th overall pick that is 26, is on his third team, and has had a major injury/surgery. His best season to date has been 15 goals and 31 points.

Honestly, the Sharks would be in a better situation heading into next season if Grier didn’t re-sign Kunin or claim Goodrow. Probably the same for signing Grundstrum. That’s ~$8m+ tied up into three 4th liners/healthy scratches. That money could go to a top 4 RD and another middle 6 winger. Guys like Couture, Granlund, Toffoli, Sturm, Walman, and Wennberg can provide enough leadership that I don’t buy that as a good reason to claim Goodrow or re-sign Kunin.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

If you're right and Kostin was considered a cap dump at $2M, barely over the amount you can bury in the minors, that says everything about how the league perceives him as a player. As does the fact that he's been traded for essentially nothing twice before as well.


Conveniently ignoring the fact Kunin was traded for the 37th overall pick, 70th overall pick and a still effective Nick Bonino after his breakout season in 2020.

Kunin was traded to Nashville as a 22 year old. Then, his scoring tanked as the middling Nashville Predators played him 10th in TOI/GP in his first year and 8th in his second.

At that point, he was FAR from a player that every team would love in their middle-6. He was the kind of player that the middling Nashville Predators sold for pennies on the dollar because they didn’t even want him in their bottom-6.

This was all before the injury that you’re citing as a reason why he is not that player. But he was far, far from that player even prior to the injury.

 

[Hodge]

Again, term makes a difference, no one wants to be locked in to a contract for a depth player with term on their deal


2 years later he was traded for John Leonard and a 3rd, and now 2 more years later he wasn't qualified by the worst team in the cap era, player values can also go down as their performance dwindles

Kostin had 1 year left on his deal. Again, if one extra year at $2M puts a 25 year old into cap dump territory, that says it all.

I suppose Filip Hronek and Sean Durzi also weren't qualified since their teams extended them prior to the QO deadline.

The fact Kunin's RFA rights were moved for a 3rd+Leonard even after a down season only proves how coveted this type of player is.

 

[weastern bias]

Kostin had 1 year left on his deal. Again, if one extra year at $2M puts a 25 year old into cap dump territory, that says it all.

Yes, 1 year is term, he was not an expiring contract, he made more than double league minimum and didn't factor into the Wings' future plans, those kind of players require assets attached to move, depth players on expiring deals on the other hand fetch mid round picks basically every deadline

I suppose Filip Hronek and Sean Durzi also weren't qualified since their teams extended them prior to the QO deadline.

This is disingenuous on its very face, those two players signed long term extensions at large raises, Kunin got a one year deal worth less than his qualifying offer, the situations are not comparable and you're reaching

The fact Kunin's RFA rights were moved for a 3rd+Leonard even after a down season only proves how coveted this type of player is.

Lol, this is very funny

Yes, he was so coveted he returned an AHL warm body who couldn't crack the San Jose lineup and a 3rd round pick, so much for his 15th overall pedigree, we just couldn't say no to John Leonard, Lol

It's okay that you seem to like Luke Kunin, it's also true that he's a bad NHL player, this bears out by every metric, every counting stat, every diminishing return on his trade value and every time anyone watches him touch the ice

 

[TealManV]

The fact Kunin's RFA rights were moved for a 3rd+Leonard even after a down season only proves how coveted this type of player is.

Interesting. I see the opposite. I view it as a minus for Grier. And it’s one of the reasons I don’t fully trust Grier at this point.

Also, I’d much rather have Jacob Fowler in the pipeline than 2+ years of Kunin.

 

[Hodge]

Kunin was traded to Nashville as a 22 year old. Then, his scoring tanked as the middling Nashville Predators played him 10th in TOI/GP in his first year and 8th in his second.

At that point, he was FAR from a player that every team would love in their middle-6. He was the kind of player that the middling Nashville Predators sold for pennies on the dollar because they didn’t even want him in their bottom-6.

This was all before the injury that you’re citing as a reason why he is not that player. But he was far, far from that player even prior to the injury.

Minnesota's return proves that the potential Kunin flashed in his sophomore season made him a valued commodity around the league.

Kunin's scoring rate actually slightly improved despite a cut in ice time his first season in Nashville. Then it fell off in year 2 and the Preds decided to move him rather than negotiate against his arb case. Three months into his Sharks tenure he tears his ACL.

He may never get back to his previous form but, at just 26 years old and now 18+ months removed from the surgery, it's not crazy to think he can either. If he does, the Sharks could net a significant return at the deadline.

 

[Juxtaposer]

We’re gonna spend the whole offseason arguing about Luke Kunin again, aren’t we.

 

[landshark]

I feel like Kunin deserves his own thread at this point. He's not good at anything but being a scapegoat.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Honestly, the Sharks would be in a better situation heading into next season if Grier didn’t re-sign Kunin or claim Goodrow. Probably the same for signing Grundstrum. That’s ~$8m+ tied up into three 4th liners/healthy scratches. That money could go to a top 4 RD and another middle 6 winger. Guys like Couture, Granlund, Toffoli, Sturm, Walman, and Wennberg can provide enough leadership that I don’t buy that as a good reason to claim Goodrow or re-sign Kunin.

I see this logic, but I think the idea is that since it doesn't make sense for the Sharks to go out and pay the picks/pieces and have a solid top-6, they'll instead have a great bottom-6 that can provide some semblance of structure for the team.

I also think that the Sharks want to avoid a situation where they have two young guys on one line.

 

[weastern bias]

I feel bad, he's terrible, but it's not Kunin's fault we were so bad, it's just indicative of where we were last year that he was such a mainstay in the lineup

On the other hand, there is a player that I don't think got enough shit for how terrible he was

Kyle Burroughs is one of the worst players I've ever seen in a Sharks jersey, I hated everything about that player and am so glad he's gone and I can't wait to watch him make Los Angeles worse

At least you can say Kunin plays with heart and energy and sells out for his teammates, Burroughs legitimately brings no positive value to his team when he's on the ice, he must be AMAZING in the room because, holy f***, that guy sucks

 

[mogambomoroo]

I'm not the biggest fan of Kunin either, but it seems he brings something in that locker room that's worth another year. If I'm not wrong Warsofsky even said ''we need more Kunins'' so that has some value inside the organization. I don't know if it's going to help win games.
Kunin has only one year contract with a lot of competition in that forward group, so I think it's a pretty low risk at the end of the day and the tale will write itself by the end of the season.

 

[Hodge]

Yes, 1 year is term, he was not an expiring contract, he made more than double league minimum and didn't factor into the Wings' future plans, those kind of players require assets attached to move, depth players on expiring deals on the other hand fetch mid round picks basically every deadline

This is disingenuous on its very face, those two players signed long term extensions at large raises, Kunin got a one year deal worth less than his qualifying offer, the situations are not comparable and you're reaching

Lol, this is very funny

Yes, he was so coveted he returned an AHL warm body who couldn't crack the San Jose lineup and a 3rd round pick, so much for his 15th overall pedigree, we just couldn't say no to John Leonard, Lol

It's okay that you seem to like Luke Kunin, it's also true that he's a bad NHL player, this bears out by every metric, every counting stat, every diminishing return on his trade value and every time anyone watches him touch the ice

What's really disingenuous is claiming Kunin wasn't qualified just because he was signed before teams needed to submit QOs, just like Hronek and Durzi were. It wasn't even a Mackenzie Blackwood situation like last year where the Sharks legitimately did not tender Blackwood a QO in order to avoid giving him arb rights but came to an agreement before free agency opened. We have no idea whether the Sharks would have qualified Kunin had he not agreed to the 1x2.75 deal. I bet they would have.

 

[Cas]

I'm not the biggest fan of Kunin either, but it seems he brings something in that locker room that's worth another year. If I'm not wrong Warsofsky even said ''we need more Kunins'' so that has some value inside the organization. I don't know if it's going to help win games.
Kunin has only one year contract with a lot of competition in that forward group, so I think it's a pretty low risk at the end of the day and the tale will write itself by the end of the season.

I don't think coaches are usually in the habit of badmouthing players to the press (usually), so I don't tend to put a lot of stock into what they say at face value.

It's more telling that they only saw fit to give one year to someone they gave an "A," who is only 2, and at a discount at that. They think highly enough of his leadership that they want to keep him, but they don't want to be locked into more than one additional year of his performance.

 

[coooldude]

I feel like Kunin deserves his own thread at this point. He's not good at anything but being a scapegoat.

This is actually a great idea. Mods, can we start a few key player-specific threads to sequester all interminable, repetitive discussions for those who take pleasure in them? Kind of helps for the prospect threads...

 

[OrrNumber4]

Kyle Burroughs is one of the worst players I've ever seen in a Sharks jersey, I hated everything about that player and am so glad he's gone and I can't wait to watch him make Los Angeles worse

At least you can say Kunin plays with heart and energy and sells out for his teammates, Burroughs legitimately brings no positive value to his team when he's on the ice, he must be AMAZING in the room because, holy f***, that guy sucks

Well-said. Try-hard player but negative hockey sense and negative skills.

 

[weastern bias]

What's really disingenuous is claiming Kunin wasn't qualified just because he was signed before teams needed to submit QOs, just like Hronek and Durzi were. It wasn't even a Mackenzie Blackwood situation like last year where the Sharks legitimately did not tender Blackwood a QO in order to avoid giving him arb rights but came to an agreement before free agency opened. We have no idea whether the Sharks would have qualified Kunin had he not agreed to the 1x2.75 deal. I bet they would have.

Cool

 

[ChompChomp]

I don't think coaches are usually in the habit of badmouthing players to the press (usually), so I don't tend to put a lot of stock into what they say at face value.

It's more telling that they only saw fit to give one year to someone they gave an "A," who is only 2, and at a discount at that. They think highly enough of his leadership that they want to keep him, but they don't want to be locked into more than one additional year of his performance.

I agree re: Warsofsky, the comments don't mean much. Always nice to have good locker room guys, but beyond that, doesn't mean anything.

I also agree re: contract. Basically they gave him one more year to demonstrate how valuable he is in the NHL, so that next year, as a UFA, he can get the deal he deserves, whether it be from the Sharks, another NHL team, an AHL only deal, or something in Europe. It's a "prove it" deal that takes him to UFA. The fact that the Sharks didn't even buy one year of UFA from him is telling.

 

[Hodge]

I don't think coaches are usually in the habit of badmouthing players to the press (usually), so I don't tend to put a lot of stock into what they say at face value.

It's more telling that they only saw fit to give one year to someone they gave an "A," who is only 2, and at a discount at that. They think highly enough of his leadership that they want to keep him, but they don't want to be locked into more than one additional year of his performance.

Or they're prudently taking a wait and see approach with not only Kunin but the team as a whole. If Kunin is fully healthy and scoring at a 15+ goal pace while doing all the other stuff he usually does, you make a decision at the deadline to trade or extend him depending on the offers, contract negotiations and how close you think the team is to competing for a playoff spot. If he struggles then you can just walk away at the end of the season without being locked into a long term deal.

 

[TealManV]

I see this logic, but I think the idea is that since it doesn't make sense for the Sharks to go out and pay the picks/pieces and have a solid top-6, they'll instead have a great bottom-6 that can provide some semblance of structure for the team.

I also think that the Sharks want to avoid a situation where they have two young guys on one line.

I don’t think the Sharks would’ve needed to go out and pay the picks/pieces for another quality top 6-9 forward. They could’ve just signed another quality FA to go with Toffoli and Wennberg.

Kunin + Goodrow = $6.35m

So if you take those two away, that’s another Toffoli that could’ve been signed while clearing up some of the logjam they now have in the bottom 6.

And I agree about avoiding a situation where there’s two young guys on one line, but I’d rather have two of Celebrini, Eklund and Smith playing together instead of one of those kids having to play with Goodrow and Kunin.