Speculation: 2023-2024 General Lightning Discussion - Part 5

[Vasilevskiy]

One name to keep an eye on in training camp is Huuhtanen. I'm not sure he's ready yet but he has all the tools to be that 2nd line winger

 

[RMF5630]

If Geekie can make the team and score 20+ goals or 50 points playing with Guentzel, we'd have two scoring lines and push Cirelli and Paul down to the third, giving us a decent top nine, even with it including Sheary (gag):

Hagel - Point - Kucherov
Guentzel - Geekie - Sheary
Paul - Cirelli - Atkinson

If not, I don't see our forward lines being improved enough to make a big enough of a difference over last year.

I don't know what Stamkos was willing to stay for, but I think JBB was right to look for a younger player. He went for the big name in free agency and overpaid like you always have to for the big names. I was interested in Teravainen because he is a good two way winger for the second line and I thought he'd be cheaper than Stamkos and require less term than the bigger names in free agency. Chicago signed him for 5.4 at 3 years. I think that would have been the better move allowing us to get another top nine forward (especially if we got rid of Sheary). We need will need one if Geekie doesn't make the team in a meaningful role.

I was against trading Sergachev, but I think JBB actually got a very good return for him. Maybe Sergachev does reach that #1 potential, but this deal should help us fill more holes in the roster. I hope Geekie is ready to make the team.

Maybe Sergchev's leg injury could be problematic in the future, trade while value high.

 

[Major4Boarding]

One name to keep an eye on in training camp is Huuhtanen. I'm not sure he's ready yet but he has all the tools to be that 2nd line winger

If he works his ass off learning from Barb (Underhill) he’ll be a force to be reckoned with

 

[The Gongshow]

What the heck is the holdup on the Moser deal? Is the guy asking for something ridiculous or what? Its kind of holding up potential moves since they'd need to know what they have left....pretty strange

 

[Major4Boarding]

What the heck is the holdup on the Moser deal? Is the guy asking for something ridiculous or what? Its kind of holding up potential moves since they'd need to know what they have left....pretty strange

He is Arbitration Eligible so may have a bit to do with it

 

[Outl4w]

Can we just take a moment and marvel at this:

Palat - Point - Kucherov
Killorn - Cirelli - Stamkos
Coleman - Gourde - Goodrow
Maroon - Colton - TyJo

Hedman - Ruuta
McDonagh - Cernak
Sergachev - Savard

Vasilevskiy

We praise the guy who held the team to the take a team contract standard the acolyte Ruuta.

 

[Outl4w]

If he works his ass off learning from Barb (Underhill) he’ll be a force to be reckoned with

Don't give me point hopes.

 

[Felonious Python]

He is Arbitration Eligible so may have a bit to do with it

That arb hearing would be interesting.

Moser's agent: Trust me, bro.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

It's clear the organization wanted to move on from Stamkos. They low balled him on purpose because they knew he most likely wasn't going to take it (probably not the smoothest way of handling this). But also, they probably thought that low ball offer was what he was worth in their eyes. Which is fair - that's what they thought internally.

There's two reasons you do what they did with Stamkos: 1) it greatly increases the chance of winning a cup in the short term. Or 2) keeping Stamkos would have hurt the teams chances at the eventual rebuild.

Tbh - at this point, I just don't see how either of those were accomplished. Looking at this current roster, objectively, I don't see how moving on from him put us in a way better position to win now. Guentzel aside (he is an obvious upgrade), I'm still having a hard time seeing how we couldn't have made this work with Stamkos. At this point, there's been no non-Guentzel move that justifies not making room for him. Maybe it's coming?

Yes, he signed in Nashville at 8x4. But listen to his interviews, he was trying to do what he could to stay here. He would have taken 5 or 6. Even if it's a longer term deal...we couldn't have just sucked it up in 4 years and ate the rest?

I'm just not convinced at this point. Was it worth it?

 

[These Are The Days]

It's clear the organization wanted to move on from Stamkos. They low balled him on purpose because they knew he most likely wasn't going to take it (probably not the smoothest way of handling this). But also, they probably thought that low ball offer was what he was worth in their eyes. Which is fair - that's what they thought internally.

There's two reasons you do what they did with Stamkos: 1) it greatly increases the chance of winning a cup in the short term. Or 2) keeping Stamkos would have hurt the teams chances at the eventual rebuild.

Tbh - at this point, I just don't see how either of those were accomplished. Looking at this current roster, objectively, I don't see how moving on from him put us in a way better position to win now. Guentzel aside (he is an obvious upgrade), I'm still having a hard time seeing how we couldn't have made this work with Stamkos. At this point, there's been no non-Guentzel move that justifies not making room for him. Maybe it's coming?

Yes, he signed in Nashville at 8x4. But listen to his interviews, he was trying to do what he could to stay here. He would have taken 5 or 6. Even if it's a longer term deal...we couldn't have just sucked it up in 4 years and ate the rest?

I'm just not convinced at this point. Was it worth it?

I'm not seeing how it was. Not yet. Getting Atkinson and Zemgus for our bottom 6 was about as urgently necessary as putting out a kitchen fire. But I feel like had Sheary just been bought out, there might have been enough money left over to figure out a deal between Stamkos and Moser. We really screwed our chance at the best top 6 in Lightning history. We just will not get away from the "1 line does all the scoring" philosophy

 

[Outl4w]

That arb hearing would be interesting.

Moser's agent: Trust me, bro.

6 x 8 inbound.

 

[Major4Boarding]

That arb hearing would be interesting.

Moser's agent: Trust me, bro.

We'll get a sneak peek at what's to come starting Friday. Hopefully something gets done sooner. I get the sense the hang up's either:

*"We're not done yet, so I don't have a specific number till we are"
*"We're offering 5 years ~ $4M per" Agent: "Not so sure we want to give up UFA years"
*Bridge-deal offer is $________ Agent: "No, it should be this $________)

I'm leaning it's the above, in that order.

 

[Rschmitz]

It's not like Moser isn't a tradeable asset either. I feel like doing so would be a big time mistake now that the market is basically closed and we're banking on him to help turn this defense around.

 

[NJBolt]

The Salary Cap is undefeated.

The Lightning have had an unprecedented run when you consider they have been in 4 Stanley Cups in the last 10 years. Add in they were in the ECF in 6 of those 10 years.

The key was they had a foundation of Stamkos (#1 overall) & Headman (#2 overall) that were not busts. There was still value gained in the St. Louis trade. You got Vasi in there. Then you hit on a 2nd rounder (Kucherov), 3rd rounders (Point, Killorn, Cirelli?), 7th rounder (Palat) and some undrafted players (Tyler Johnson & Yanni Gourde).

That is drawing a Royal Flush in the NHL. Incredibly rare.

We haven't had any draft capital or any prospects pan out since when? Point basically. The only way we had that long run with the Salary Cap is to draft and develop so well, hit big on trades (like McD, Coleman & Goodrow) and in the process we had an abundance of wealth that we had no room for (JT Miller, Carter Verheghe, Jonathan Marchessault).

Without replacing your stars with young, cheap prospects, that provide much more value than their salaries, there isn't anyway the Salary Cap is going to let you be in a Stanley Cup window for more than a few seasons (See Washington, Colorado, probably Vegas). Florida only has one more year and then they will be in the same boat as Tampa.

The moves made so far this offseason, do appear to make us a slightly better team than last year, but you still are probably losing in the 1st or 2nd round depending on the matchup.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

The Salary Cap is undefeated.

The Lightning have had an unprecedented run when you consider they have been in 4 Stanley Cups in the last 10 years. Add in they were in the ECF in 6 of those 10 years.

The key was they had a foundation of Stamkos (#1 overall) & Headman (#2 overall) that were not busts. There was still value gained in the St. Louis trade. You got Vasi in there. Then you hit on a 2nd rounder (Kucherov), 3rd rounders (Point, Killorn, Cirelli?), 7th rounder (Palat) and some undrafted players (Tyler Johnson & Yanni Gourde).

That is drawing a Royal Flush in the NHL. Incredibly rare.

We haven't had any draft capital or any prospects pan out since when? Point basically. The only way we had that long run with the Salary Cap is to draft and develop so well, hit big on trades (like McD, Coleman & Goodrow) and in the process we had an abundance of wealth that we had no room for (JT Miller, Carter Verheghe, Jonathan Marchessault).

Without replacing your stars with young, cheap prospects, that provide much more value than their salaries, there isn't anyway the Salary Cap is going to let you be in a Stanley Cup window for more than a few seasons (See Washington, Colorado, probably Vegas). Florida only has one more year and then they will be in the same boat as Tampa.

The moves made so far this offseason, do appear to make us a slightly better team than last year, but you still are probably losing in the 1st or 2nd round depending on the matchup.

The last good draft picks to contribute multiple solid seasons for the Lightning are the following:

2014: Point (3rd round)
2015: Cirelli (3rd round)
2016; Colton (4th round)

Striking out with many picks and giving up so much draft capital to go for it and/or get rid of overpaid players coming back to bite us now.

We need Crozier to step up full time soon, Goncalves to take another step this year, Duke to start to emerge in the A, and Huuhtanen to establish himself in Syracuse. Howard & Gauthier are both a year away at the earliest. Lilleberg (Coyotes pick) and Geekie (Coyotes pick) should be big for us for years to come.

 

[The Gongshow]

The last good draft picks to contribute multiple solid seasons for the Lightning are the following:

2014: Point (3rd round)
2015: Cirelli (3rd round)
2016; Colton (4th round)

Striking out with many picks and giving up so much draft capital to go for it and/or get rid of overpaid players coming back to bite us now.

We need Crozier to step up full time soon, Goncalves to take another step this year, Duke to start to emerge in the A, and Huuhtanen to establish himself in Syracuse. Howard & Gauthier are both a year away at the earliest. Lilleberg (Coyotes pick) and Geekie (Coyotes pick) should be big for us for years to come.

I think Coop needs to start giving some kids chances again. We had to with injuries for Point and Cirelli, but we have a couple interesting prospects now who deserve a shot. It's those type of guys that help extend windows on cheap deals. Geekie would be my 3C to start the year. We can't fill all our holes on FA due to our cap restrictions. Coop can't just bury them on the 4th lines, we have a full 82, he doesn't need to be so tight with his roster the furst few months.

 

[HoseEmDown]

The last good draft picks to contribute multiple solid seasons for the Lightning are the following:

2014: Point (3rd round)
2015: Cirelli (3rd round)
2016; Colton (4th round)

Striking out with many picks and giving up so much draft capital to go for it and/or get rid of overpaid players coming back to bite us now.

We need Crozier to step up full time soon, Goncalves to take another step this year, Duke to start to emerge in the A, and Huuhtanen to establish himself in Syracuse. Howard & Gauthier are both a year away at the earliest. Lilleberg (Coyotes pick) and Geekie (Coyotes pick) should be big for us for years to come.

This is a bit misleading. We used a lot of drafted players in trades for many current players. Joseph was ok for a couple of seasons and got us Paul. Howden and Hajek got McDonagh, Katchouk and Raddysh got Hagel, Foote got Coleman.

Perbix is on the roster, Goncalves should make the roster and possibly be the 3C, Crozier possibly the 7th or beats out Perbix. Finley looks really promising and isn't far out, while the others are too early to tell. There were some bad picks in there but we also moved guys on that looked promising but didn't pan out so we made out on that end. We also didn't have a lot of top 90 picks in the last 10 years or so.

 

[Outl4w]

The last good draft picks to contribute multiple solid seasons for the Lightning are the following:

2014: Point (3rd round)
2015: Cirelli (3rd round)
2016; Colton (4th round)

Striking out with many picks and giving up so much draft capital to go for it and/or get rid of overpaid players coming back to bite us now.

We need Crozier to step up full time soon, Goncalves to take another step this year, Duke to start to emerge in the A, and Huuhtanen to establish himself in Syracuse. Howard & Gauthier are both a year away at the earliest. Lilleberg (Coyotes pick) and Geekie (Coyotes pick) should be big for us for years to come.

We need a top 6 winger/center and a bottom 6 winger.

 

[DMB06]

It's clear the organization wanted to move on from Stamkos. They low balled him on purpose because they knew he most likely wasn't going to take it (probably not the smoothest way of handling this). But also, they probably thought that low ball offer was what he was worth in their eyes. Which is fair - that's what they thought internally.

There's two reasons you do what they did with Stamkos: 1) it greatly increases the chance of winning a cup in the short term. Or 2) keeping Stamkos would have hurt the teams chances at the eventual rebuild.

Tbh - at this point, I just don't see how either of those were accomplished. Looking at this current roster, objectively, I don't see how moving on from him put us in a way better position to win now. Guentzel aside (he is an obvious upgrade), I'm still having a hard time seeing how we couldn't have made this work with Stamkos. At this point, there's been no non-Guentzel move that justifies not making room for him. Maybe it's coming?

Yes, he signed in Nashville at 8x4. But listen to his interviews, he was trying to do what he could to stay here. He would have taken 5 or 6. Even if it's a longer term deal...we couldn't have just sucked it up in 4 years and ate the rest?

I'm just not convinced at this point. Was it worth it?

He's made north of 115m during his career, at the end of the day he chose money over retiring here. JBB has a cap to deal with, it's not like other pro sports leagues where various loopholes, per se, can be used to create more room and retain/bring in players you really want. Stammer has enough money to live many lifetimes, he got to do what he loves for a living (something that's extremely rare in modern day society), and he'll retire at an age where most people are still in the early stages of their careers. He played for a team in a very nice area, paid less taxes, and was on a competitive roster. HE chose to leave all of that, because he didn't get even more money that wouldn't change his life 1%.

Simple reality. I don't hate the guy, but in the end pride got the best of him. One day when he's old he's going to look back and regret not taking JBB's offer, no doubt about it.

 

[The Gongshow]

We need a top 6 winger/center and a bottom 6 winger.

I'd probably prefer 2nd line winger and a 3C so Paul can be put back on the wing, and then that drops Atkinson or Shesry to the 4th line with Glendenging and Girgonsen

Terasenko, Laine (50% retention), Ehlrs, Granlund, Kadri or Hubby (50% retained) could be interesting options.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

This is a bit misleading. We used a lot of drafted players in trades for many current players. Joseph was ok for a couple of seasons and got us Paul. Howden and Hajek got McDonagh, Katchouk and Raddysh got Hagel, Foote got Coleman.

Perbix is on the roster, Goncalves should make the roster and possibly be the 3C, Crozier possibly the 7th or beats out Perbix. Finley looks really promising and isn't far out, while the others are too early to tell. There were some bad picks in there but we also moved guys on that looked promising but didn't pan out so we made out on that end. We also didn't have a lot of top 90 picks in the last 10 years or so.

Joseph was a solid pick for the 4th round. Howden is an ok late 1st, but he's just energy depth. He was big in the 2023 Cup for Vegas, but a role higher up in a lineup like he had in New York, he's not good enough for. Hajek is a bum, Katchouk is mostly a bum, and Raddysh isn't dynamic enough nor gritty enough to be a consistent middle 6/top 6 scorer. Nolan Foote is a AAAA tweener and was a reach on draft day.

How they were as draft picks is not equal to how Yzerman and BriseBois used them as assets post draft. And Yzerman/Al Murray deciding Cal Foote was worth taking in the middle of the 1st really hurt this team. Classic last name bias/nepotism. Imagine if we drafted Robert Thomas, Jason Robertson, even Josh Norris there. Hell, Timothy Liljegren, even though he's soft and somewhat underwhelming, is a better NHLer than Cal Foote ever was.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

He's made north of 115m during his career, at the end of the day he chose money over retiring here. JBB has a cap to deal with, it's not like other pro sports leagues where various loopholes, per se, can be used to create more room and retain/bring in players you really want. Stammer has enough money to live many lifetimes, he got to do what he loves for a living (something that's extremely rare in modern day society), and he'll retire at an age where most people are still in the early stages of their careers. He played for a team in a very nice area, paid less taxes, and was on a competitive roster. HE chose to leave all of that, because he didn't get even more money that wouldn't change his life 1%.

Simple reality. I don't hate the guy, but in the end pride got the best of him. One day when he's old he's going to look back and regret not taking JBB's offer, no doubt about it.

All of this is preposterous lol

First: he didn't choose the money. He wanted to stay and was willing to negotiate. He was willing to take way below market value to stay. JBB low balled him. They didn't see his value anymore.

Second: This idea that JBB's hands were tied because of the cap is 100% not true now. He had more cap to offer Stamkos. He chose not to. He did not up his offer or meet in the middle. That's on JBB, not Stamkos.

Third: the most ridiculous thing you said is he let pride get in the way lol. He was offered an insulting offer by HIS team of 16 years. It wasn't even remotely close to market value. And to make things worse: they had the cap to do it! They didn't want him anymore. Period. This isn't Stamkos being greedy. Just because he has made a lot of money in his career doesn't mean he should have accepted a pile of shit lol. Like he said: sometimes it's hard to come to grips with someone not wanting you anymore. Even when you still want them.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

He's made north of 115m during his career, at the end of the day he chose money over retiring here. JBB has a cap to deal with, it's not like other pro sports leagues where various loopholes, per se, can be used to create more room and retain/bring in players you really want. Stammer has enough money to live many lifetimes, he got to do what he loves for a living (something that's extremely rare in modern day society), and he'll retire at an age where most people are still in the early stages of their careers. He played for a team in a very nice area, paid less taxes, and was on a competitive roster. HE chose to leave all of that, because he didn't get even more money that wouldn't change his life 1%.

Simple reality. I don't hate the guy, but in the end pride got the best of him. One day when he's old he's going to look back and regret not taking JBB's offer, no doubt about it.

All of this is preposterous lol

First: he didn't choose the money. He wanted to stay and was willing to negotiate. He was willing to take way below market value to stay. JBB low balled him. They didn't see his value anymore.

Second: This idea that JBB's hands were tied because of the cap is 100% not true now. He had more cap to offer Stamkos. He chose not to. He did not up his offer or meet in the middle. That's on JBB, not Stamkos.

Third: the most ridiculous thing you said is he let pride get in the way lol. He was offered an insulting offer by HIS team of 16 years. It wasn't even remotely close to market value. And to make things worse: they had the cap to do it! They didn't want him anymore. Period. This isn't Stamkos being greedy. Just because he has made a lot of money in his career doesn't mean he should have accepted a pile of shit lol. Like he said: sometimes it's hard to come to grips with someone not wanting you anymore. Even when you still want them.

Neither of you are wrong. Both posts are true to an extent. The actual reality is right in the middle of this.

 

[Outl4w]

I'd probably prefer 2nd line winger and a 3C so Paul can be put back on the wing, and then that drops Atkinson or Shesry to the 4th line with Glendenging and Girgonsen

Terasenko, Laine (50% retention), Ehlrs, Granlund, Kadri or Hubby (50% retained) could be interesting options.

Sheary for laine(50%retained) would be the best and worst trade for everyone involved.
Atkinson and/or sheary on 4th line is going to be a disaster.

 

[DMB06]

All of this is preposterous lol

First: he didn't choose the money. He wanted to stay and was willing to negotiate. He was willing to take way below market value to stay. JBB low balled him. They didn't see his value anymore.

Second: This idea that JBB's hands were tied because of the cap is 100% not true now. He had more cap to offer Stamkos. He chose not to. He did not up his offer or meet in the middle. That's on JBB, not Stamkos.

Third: the most ridiculous thing you said is he let pride get in the way lol. He was offered an insulting offer by HIS team of 16 years. It wasn't even remotely close to market value. And to make things worse: they had the cap to do it! They didn't want him anymore. Period. This isn't Stamkos being greedy. Just because he has made a lot of money in his career doesn't mean he should have accepted a pile of shit lol. Like he said: sometimes it's hard to come to grips with someone not wanting you anymore. Even when you still want them.

All of your information about what Stammer wanted, or would've settled for, is from his camp. JBB said what Stammer wanted, and what he offered, wasn't close. Why is the default around this forum that Stammer is 100 percent honest, and JBB is a liar?

I don't see any evidence at all that he was "willing to take way below market value", or that JBB "wouldn't meet him in the middle".

There's truly no evidence of any of this. Nashville gave him 8 million. Teams don't just hand out money to be nice, they don't blindly choose a number and then offer it. That's not how negotiations work. We largely were dethroned because of the cap, it's a precious resource that needs to be managed well, and there's a zero percent chance Nashville simply offered him 8 million without first contacting him to see what he was looking for. They gave him 8 million because that's what he wanted, I can't believe so many people here can't see that.

If the rumor (that Stammers camp obviously made up) was true that they just wanted JBB to "meet them in the middle), well that's 4m max. 3m offer, the rumor was he wanted 1.5-2m more. So, the most logical thing to believe is that he wanted 8 from Nashville, but would've been content with 4 here? Half? He would've taken half?

Zero chance. None.

He wanted much more, and that is why JBB didn't work with him. Not out of spite, just straight numbers. The cap simply wouldn't allow him to offer what Stammer was asking for. So what did he do? He gave money to a significantly younger, and better, player. I'm not even that big of a fan of JBB, but he's being unfairly criticized for this whole thing. What eventually ended up happening, Stammer signing for 8m, overwhelmingly shows JBB was the one being honest.

I'll reiterate, pride is why Stammer is playing for Nashville, not JBB being a big meanie face.