World Cup: 2022 World Cup Qualifiers

[bluesfan94]

Personally, I kind of see where Evilo is coming from and I'd have no issue with Russian teams being able to keep playing, so long as its done on neutral grounds for their home games and security is extra tight. You do start heading down a slippery slope if national teams get kicked out for the wrongs of their nation. Nobody would seriously consider suspending Israel from UEFA proceedings, would they?

We don't really have to worry about Russian teams internationally as they have effectively banned themselves through poor play. The only question is the national team. I'm also quite sure plenty of people would advocate for suspending Israel without even discussing the differences between the situations (and I don't want to deal with that conversation because it's not really pertinent now)

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Except literally no one is saying only Russia is a problem. Maybe it's a reading comprehension issue.

Sure, but playing the what about game is a classic form of excusing actions. We can call it hypocrisy and say nothing should be done or we can acknowledge the differences in situations (even with the benefit of hindsight), and I think it's telling which choice people take.

But nobody is excusing the action. I get your point but putting that line in the sand when it comes to Russia will inevitably invite what about?

I'm all for being practical (Russia playing in neutral grounds, Israel being a part of the UEFA even though they're in the ME) but banning national teams is really messy.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

We don't really have to worry about Russian teams internationally as they have effectively banned themselves through poor play. The only question is the national team. I'm also quite sure plenty of people would advocate for suspending Israel without even discussing the differences between the situations (and I don't want to deal with that conversation because it's not really pertinent now)

And anyone advocating for suspending Israel would be wrong. We can talk about the difference between situations but what isn't up to discussion is that both nations are guilty of illegal acts/war crimes and that's the obvious - at least to me - easy point where you would hypothetically start deciding to suspend teams.

 

[bluesfan94]

And anyone advocating for suspending Israel would be wrong. We can talk about the difference between situations but what isn't up to discussion is that both nations are guilty of illegal acts/war crimes and that's the obvious - at least to me - easy point where you would hypothetically start deciding to suspend teams.

I think most people would be able to tell the difference between invading a hostile nation and a peaceful one, but perhaps that nuance is lost on someone. There's plenty Israel is doing wrong, but not being able to differentiate between what is happening there and what is happening in Ukraine is pretty silly

 

[bluesfan94]

15,000 civilians killed in Donbass since 2014 due to Ukrainian bombing, not a problem. They just don't know the story, they're stuck in Rambo and Rocky movies.

It's okay to get your news from sources other than rt and sputnik

 

[Evilo]

And anyone advocating for suspending Israel would be wrong. We can talk about the difference between situations but what isn't up to discussion is that both nations are guilty of illegal acts/war crimes and that's the obvious - at least to me - easy point where you would hypothetically start deciding to suspend teams.

Of course both situations are different. But war crimes are being commited by Israel and Israel is in UEFA, which was my point. Nobody, at ANY point that I remember of, asked Israel to be suspended from UEFA competitions. Same with France.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I think most people would be able to tell the difference between invading a hostile nation and a peaceful one, but perhaps that nuance is lost on someone. There's plenty Israel is doing wrong, but not being able to differentiate between what is happening there and what is happening in Ukraine is pretty silly

You're getting into a discussion that neither of us is interested in having. It's about the point (i.e. nation commits war crimes/illegal invasion) not the historical nuances in conflict. You can interchange with the US/France/Saudi Arabia if you'd like.

 

[Incubajerks]

It's okay to get your news from sources other than rt and sputnik

They are OECD data, do you know what the OECD is? Find out and then come back here and try to understand the causes of what is happening.

 

[Havre]

It's okay to get your news from sources other than rt and sputnik

CNN?

That is another discussion of course, but clearly all news sources got their issues - so none of us can really say what has gone on in Eastern Ukraine.

Not that I personally believe the situation there is the reason for the attack - if so I believe Putin would have used it a lot more aggressively. But I don't know.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

In short, I think what about is inevitable in this situation because you're discussing a standard. This isn't like discussing woman's rights where a westerner pointing out offense in the ME to downplay oppression at home becomes a disingenous dick. You're talking about how we move going forward and where the line gets drawn for banishment. You can't have that discussion without referencing other nations.

 

[Havre]

I think Evilo might have blocked/ignored me, but boy oh boy do we see eye to eye on this issue.

 

[Havre]

Amazing video. If white people get killed it is somehow worse.

 

[luiginb]

I'd say if people get killed 150 km from your hometown it's worse. And I felt the same when the US was bombing Belgrade. I still can't stand the sight of Bill f***ing Clinton.

 

[Havre]

You should listen to Christopher Hitchens talk about the Clintons (if you haven't already).

He is still a hero though. Utterly amazing.

Strange that the clown agrees with you.

 

[luiginb]

The clown comment was saying Trudeau was worse than Putin. I know Russians who'd spit at you for making that comment.

 

[cgf]

Except literally no one is saying only Russia is a problem. Maybe it's a reading comprehension issue.

Sure, but playing the what about game is a classic form of excusing actions. We can call it hypocrisy and say nothing should be done or we can acknowledge the differences in situations (even with the benefit of hindsight), and I think it's telling which choice people take.

Just because something is often used for one purpose doesn't mean it is always used for that purpose. Adding context to a conversation can be used disingenuously to try & justify one side, but that's not what has happened in this thread. Y'all are the ones putting those words in his mouth.

Especially when we can't have this conversation without putting it into its context. Otherwise, nothing is going to change and we're just going to punish russia for being russia again.

 

[Evilo]

The clown comment was saying Trudeau was worse than Putin. I know Russians who'd spit at you for making that comment.

Not sure who you're refering to.
But nobody thinks that obviousy.
Doesn't mean the hypocrisy from westerners isn't strong here.

 

[luiginb]

Stop blocking people man haha. Havre did, and btw you guys are on the same side here.

 

[Havre]

Tongue in cheek. Never thought anyone would take that seriously. Even if I’m very pleased Trudeau doesn’t have an army like Putin.

 

[Evilo]

Stop blocking people man haha. Havre did, and btw you guys are on the same side here.

Good. If he wasn't a football troll, I could like him.
Anyway, yes it's tough to discuss when I'm missing many parts of what's being said.
Anyway, I made my point, I have no problem with people disagreeing so long they don't accuse me of supporting Russia or being a war monger. That one I never accepted boy oh boy those comments were bad.
Anyway, I sincerely hope people asking for russian teams to be suspended will be honest enough to do the same as soon as a western country is responsible for deaths in a foreign country, regardless of religion, color of skin or political view.
Killing civilians should be met with systematic answers (and as I said, I don't believe suspending sports teams are part of the solution), but for everyone and not just for certain countries in certain areas.
I'd also love if people could realize that we're treating like heros some political persons who are openly racists (Poland) or have been elected on promises to fight against corruption while hiding money offshore (Ukraine president).
Of course, you could always say racism or corruption is a lesser evil than war.
More than anything, I hope people can talk to people from Russia, Ukraine, Irak, Iran, South America or Africa and realize views can be extremely different. Doesn't mean there's a good and a bad side.
When I read here on Hfboards, by people I respect, that there is an "Evil" side, I'm just amazed.

 

[luiginb]

Can you agree at least that the US canopy is better than the Russian one for Eastern Europeans to be under? There's shade of evil, and while I don't like defending the country that helped kill Allende and install Pinochet for example, the Russians have been much, much worse for my corner of the world.

 

[bluesfan94]

Just because something is often used for one purpose doesn't mean it is always used for that purpose. Adding context to a conversation can be used disingenuously to try & justify one side, but that's not what has happened in this thread. Y'all are the ones putting those words in his mouth.

Especially when we can't have this conversation without putting it into its context. Otherwise, nothing is going to change and we're just going to punish russia for being russia again.

Is your point that because Russia is Russia, they shouldn't be punished?

Stop blocking people man haha. Havre did, and btw you guys are on the same side here.

The guy can't handle anyone disagreeing with him.

In short, I think what about is inevitable in this situation because you're discussing a standard. This isn't like discussing woman's rights where a westerner pointing out offense in the ME to downplay oppression at home becomes a disingenous dick. You're talking about how we move going forward and where the line gets drawn for banishment. You can't have that discussion without referencing other nations.

Right, but when there are blatant differences between situations, the standard is pretty evident. Like I said, there's plenty of room for nuance when discussing the different situations. Not everything is the same.

They are OECD data, do you know what the OECD is? Find out and then come back here and try to understand the causes of what is happening.

Yeah, I do. But I can't find the OECD data that 15,000 citizens due explicitly to Ukrainian shelling and you're being a little silly in terms of ignoring what happened in 2014 with Russia's unofficial invasion.

 

[Evilo]

Can you agree at least that the US canopy is better than the Russian one for Eastern Europeans to be under? There's shade of evil, and while I don't like defending the country that helped kill Allende and install Pinochet for example, the Russians have been much, much worse for my corner of the world.

I can agree with YOUR part of the world. No doubt.
However, I think if we count the number of deaths on foreign soil since 1945 due to another country, Russia is probably not top 3. US is most likely easily #1 (and that's not counting indirect deaths like Chile and others), France is also likely top 3.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Right, but when there are blatant differences between situations, the standard is pretty evident. Like I said, there's plenty of room for nuance when discussing the different situations. Not everything is the same.

Every situation is different and everyone has their biases but I struggle to imagine how the standard wouldn't be war crimes.

 

[koyvoo]

USA world lap the field. Twice. Even if the field was combined.