Prospect Info: 2022 8OA, Marco Kasper

[Snuggs]

I think being a really good player like prime Darren Helm will be ok and helpful.

I've never, ever, expected him to be this great 2nd line center, but someone on here mentioned he could develop like Michael Peca and I think that's his best bet at this point right now. Peca struggled his first two real years in the NHL between Van/Buf before really holding on as a very good defensive forward who could churn out 45-60 points.

Sometimes my comments on trade smudge's a players character as in as I don't like him or they suck. I like him, he's a fine player, just not a building block/cornerstone type player.

Rest of the league might be watching and learning too right now, idk if he's got the trade value that he did just 4 weeks ago. A trade for a bigger name/star could involve different guys now. (imo). Selling high on prospects when you've got a good collection/draft stash isn't the worst idea. Red Wings are going to start watching guys/prospects just walk for nothing at this point right now.

Red Wings fans (imo) need to stop comparing EVERY prospect to hall of famers. Let your eyes tell you what you are seeing and stop looking for the "best possible outcome" for prospects. MBN got compared to Gabriel Landeskog on draft night when drafted by someone on here... like... HOLY COW... Can we let him be someone like Steve Konowalchuk first before we set the bar that high and deem him un-move-able... or even watch him play in a legitimately hockey league.

People around here still hold onto Elmer Soderblom for crying out loud and I'm not joking when I say if you play high school hockey you can out skate/maneuver that guy in open ice. Outside of his size/length and handles, he belongs in my beer league.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If this board ran the Red Wings, Raymond would still be in GR.

 

[Snuggs]

If this board ran the Red Wings, Raymond would still be in GR.

Marco kasper has never, ever, played better than Lucas Raymond, so that's a crazy comment.

Raymond was an 18 a minute night by this time his rookie year. He was just so much better than what Kasper is offering right now so the comparison is just wild.

Your comment would be like me comparing Kaspers development to Zadina's... ( Guys struggling and we just keep him up with no ice time/development) Probably not right, not even the same types of players.

 

[newfy]

Marco kasper has never, ever, played better than Lucas Raymond, so that's a crazy comment.

Raymond was an 18 a minute night by this time his rookie year. He was just so much better than what Kasper is offering right now so the comparison is just wild.

Your comment would be like me comparing Kaspers development to Zadina's... ( Guys struggling and we just keep him up with no ice time/development) Probably not right, not even the same types of players.

Its kinda apples to oranges though. Neither coach has wanted to break Kasper in on the wing at all so he's been forced to play center which is more difficult. Raymond broke in as a winger, and got to play with Larkin immediately.

Kasper has been playing the harder position and had much less to work with on his wings.

I don't think Kasper has been close to Raymond for the record either, but him breaking into the lefague is very different from Raymond, or Larkin for that matter so the comparison isn't really fair

 

[SoupGuru]

Kasper will be fine. He's got the tools, he just needs the time and experience to organize his toolbox.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Kasper will be fine. He's got the tools, he just needs the time and experience to organize his toolbox.

I honestly feel almost the exact opposite. I think his toolbox is great. He uses his speed effectively. He makes smart decisions. He works hard and puts himself in positions to succeed.

When it comes time to shoot, the puck is at the goalie's chest or on the ice. When it comes time to beat someone one on one, he concedes the center and tries to motor by on the outside. He is creating opportunities steadily for himself and his teammates but isn't pulling out the high end skill play you need to finish those opportunities.

To me the classic, all tools, no toolbox player is flashing good skills but making poor decisions about how to use them. You can dangle someone at your own blueline, and show off high end hands that way. It won't lead to goals because a great deke only gets you a half step advantage and with so much ice left, the defense can adapt. You can show creative passing when playing catch in your own end. It won't lead to goals. You can laser a bullet wrist shot, but if you do it from the blue line without a screen, the goalie will probably grab it. Or pump the world's hardest one timer into shin pads if you can't lose your coverage. Those are the plays of guys that have great tools and no toolbox. Kasper isn't doing those things. He's choosing the right moment to do stuff. That's why it always looks so close.

I definitely am worried about Kasper developing a "being responsible and killing off my minutes is enough" mindset. We need him to say:

"I'm not burying my shots. Hey Tarasenko, Larkin, can you guys take shots with me for half an hour after practice. -- I'm failing to create space with my hands. Hey Kaner and Raymond, teach me how to get by Seider in a one on one before morning skates. And afterwards can the three of us do a video session where we talk about how to create and find passing lanes to players losing their coverage?"

If he maintains the "I'm aiming for the top, and I need to develop some elite tools to get there" mindset, then he'll be just fine.

 

[LongTimeDRWF]

Its kinda apples to oranges though. Neither coach has wanted to break Kasper in on the wing at all so he's been forced to play center which is more difficult. Raymond broke in as a winger, and got to play with Larkin immediately.

Kasper has been playing the harder position and had much less to work with on his wings.

I don't think Kasper has been close to Raymond for the record either, but him breaking into the lefague is very different from Raymond, or Larkin for that matter so the comparison isn't really fair

The coach tossed Kasper out on the PK when Larkin was in the box the other night, so I would suggest that T-Mc has to have some faith in him. I still think the coach is going to give all the players a chance to shine.

Marco also was one of the latest players to miss games due to that damn flu bug that went around the wings dressing room, the flu affects people differently.

I suspect one of the reasons Compher looked poor for so long this season is it took him a while to get back to full health (body and/or mind), he seems to be playing much better now, a coach bump can only explain so much (was he not one of the late October flu bug victums?).

Kasper looked pretty good most of the season even if not piling up points, some of that is quality consistency of his line mates, I think the rest is flu recovery (be it lung function or brain fog). Is part of Marc's reduced ice time due to this? I would suggest he normally is far from lazy and usually quite aware of what is going on during play.

If he hasn't been moved up to second line center or first line LW by the Habs game on January 23 (time for all flu effects to be gone) for a 5-10 game stint, then I agree SY should look at sliding him down to GR for a bit.

Breaking into the league as a center is not a trivial feat, even most folks on board figured he would be an alternating winger/center on Copp's line for a while.

 

[DoMakc]

I honestly feel almost the exact opposite. I think his toolbox is great. He uses his speed effectively. He makes smart decisions. He works hard and puts himself in positions to succeed.

[...]

To me the classic, all tools, no toolbox player is flashing good skills but making poor decisions about how to use them.

Dissociative identity?

 

[HisNoodliness]

Dissociative identity?

Read the full post more carefully.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Marco kasper has never, ever, played better than Lucas Raymond, so that's a crazy comment.

Raymond was an 18 a minute night by this time his rookie year. He was just so much better than what Kasper is offering right now so the comparison is just wild.

Your comment would be like me comparing Kaspers development to Zadina's... ( Guys struggling and we just keep him up with no ice time/development) Probably not right, not even the same types of players.

Raymond, a scoring winger whose main job is to score, was indeed a better scorer as a rookie.

Kasper is doing just as good at the things he’s being asked to do.

People wanting Kasper sent down because he’s not a high scoring guy is just like sending Raymond down because he wasn’t a defensively reliable, PK’ing centerman as a rookie.

 

[DoMakc]

Read the full post more carefully.

Sorry, misread it, you put so much effort into discribing what Kasper is not, that i missed the part where you actually stated.

 

[lilidk]

Since Berggren started scoring , maybe will be good idea to put him and Kasper on the same line to boost Kasper confidence

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

Since Berggren started scoring , maybe will be good idea to put him and Kasper on the same line to boost Kasper confidence

maybe berggren started scoring cause he got away from kasper

not saying that’s the case but interesting people say kasper has been playing with garbage all season ( berggren) and then he starts to heat up after being separated

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

How long does it take for a kettle to boil? If you're impatient for it to boil and staring at it, it seems to take forever.

The impatience with Kasper is pretty much the same thing.. Almost everyone's watching everything he does hoping to see signs his development clock is speeding up and increasingly disappointed with every lukewarm (in their opinion) shift. Mostly they don't care how he's actually playing, they just want to see points. The quality plays he makes that could or should have produced points -- like the great pass for a Ras tip-in chance and Motte rebound vs. Columbus or putting Ras into the clear in a previous game where he also made a great read for his own breakaway -- don't matter because they didn't result in a goal. If Kasper had been in GR, made exactly the same play as in the last game and Dries tipped the puck in past an AHL goalie, these same critics would claim it as proof it was a good idea to send him down. Look at that! One game and he's already got a point! They don't care that he is contributing to recent wins, they look at his TOI and consider it not enough of a contribution They wonder ridiculous things like if Kasper's trade value is as high as it was four weeks ago, or Fischer being just as good at 4C, or, most laughable, if having to play with Ras and Motte will affect his future relationship with Todd. Let's call Dr. Phil lol.

There are two reasons to send Kasper down. Is there a better option at 4C who could move up in case of injury? No. Is his confidence flagging to the point it is affecting his play? If that's what's going on, send hiim down and call up Danielson or Watson, but in that case you either give up on the Veleno experiment or downgrade to Fischer at 4C. IMO it's not obvious his play is affected. He's still physical, still creating chances but now for Ras instead of Kane, who also whiffed on numerous Kasper set-ups when they played together. He's among the team's most physical players, a respectable for a rookie 48 per cent FO pct, only Berggren among regular players with similar ice time has fewer give-aways. He's still the best option at 4C and so long as that is the case and the team is serious about trying to win games, Kasper should be on it.

Like a lot of similar young players he's 2-3 years away from making an offensive impact. Who he plays with this season will have zero affect on what kind of player he is in 2027. The idea for example that Veleno's future was sabotaged by having to play with Gagner for a while is utter nonsense. Ras is a better player right now than anyone he would be playing with in GR anyway. It's entirely up to Kasper what he becomes and to measure that we need a three-year calendar, not a clock ticking off every 40-second shift.

 

[Gniwder]

How long does it take for a kettle to boil? If you're impatient for it to boil and staring at it, it seems to take forever.

Uuumm water boils faster if you turn the flame up. Plus we wouldn't be staring at it if the kettle is in GR.

Is Kasper going to develop faster by getting 20 minutes in GR with PP time and an emphasis on shooting so he gets at least 3 SOG per game? Or 10 min TOI and <1 SOG in the NHL while playing with a plug like Motte? That is really the only question here.

Todd is trying to win, so he's not going to shuffle wingers just to help Kasper out. If Kasper keeps playing like he has the last 4 games, he's looking at even more ice time reduction then healthy scratch.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

Is Kasper going to develop faster by getting 20 minutes in GR with PP time and an emphasis on shooting so he gets at least 3 SOG per game? Or 10 min TOI and <1 SOG in the NHL while playing with a plug like Motte? That is really the only question here.

And the answer to that question is no. So long as Kasper is playing with confidence, 10 mins a game at NHL pace -- contributing in the role asked of him to a winning team -- will do him more good than the comfort food of easier points vs. worse players.

 

[Gniwder]

And the answer to that question is no. So long as Kasper is playing with confidence, 10 mins a game at NHL pace -- contributing in the role asked of him to a winning team -- will do him more good than the comfort food of easier points vs. worse players.

I find it interesting that people here think 19 goals is a high level of mastery where he doesn't have anything more to learn in the AHL. In comparison, Helm had 29 career AHL goals, and Vrana had 22 after he completed the PAP program (59 games). Vrana is basically at .5 ppg pace with the Caps now.

Amateurs practice until they succeed, pros practice until they can't fail. Kasper isn't there yet as far as finishing scoring opportunities. I like to see scoring line prospects get much closer to 1 ppg in the AHL before getting called up. If the end goal is to make Kasper a bottom 6 plug, then sure, keep him on the roster.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

I find it interesting that people here think 19 goals is a high level of mastery where he doesn't have anything more to learn in the AHL. In comparison, Helm had 29 career AHL goals, and Vrana had 22 after he completed the PAP program (59 games). Vrana is basically at .5 ppg pace with the Caps now.

Amateurs practice until they succeed, pros practice until they can't fail. Kasper isn't there yet as far as finishing scoring opportunities. I like to see scoring line prospects get much closer to 1 ppg in the AHL before getting called up. If the end goal is to make Kasper a bottom 6 plug, then sure, keep him on the roster.

A lot of it comes down to expectations and why a player was drafted where he was. I'm under no illusions that Kasper profiles as a big point producer in the top six, but I don't think that's why he was drafted where he was in a relatively weak (apparently) Draft. He was drafted as a two-way C who can contribute both ways and be hard to play against, a middle six and perhaps 2C whose speed and decent skills can help more skilled wingers that are less proficient defensively. A Sam Bennett type more than a JT Miller. You can win with either. Some of the same thinkng went into Danielson's selection. Depth down the middle that is fast, good defensively can be a winning formula. Skilled wingers that aren't great defensively are a lot easier to find via other means.

Kasper's ES point production last year was actually okay. Not great, but the second half of last season he was GR's best overall forward. And like SY has said, he has continued to do all the little things that made him good last season and are keeping him in the NHL so far. If those drop off, or it's decided lack of confidence requires him to be sent down, that would be fine with me. I just don't yet see that yet.

 

[Gniwder]

When it comes time to shoot, the puck is at the goalie's chest or on the ice. When it comes time to beat someone one on one, he concedes the center and tries to motor by on the outside. He is creating opportunities steadily for himself and his teammates but isn't pulling out the high end skill play you need to finish those opportunities.

That is exactly what I see, it's the tool he's missing. Then he just shoves the puck at the goalie instead of getting a good shot off.

Having the ability to move the puck is great, but if he can't finish then it's no more useful than cycling the puck. In fact, cycling the puck actually kills more time off the clock and wears down the opponents.

I definitely am worried about Kasper developing a "being responsible and killing off my minutes is enough" mindset.

Joe Veleno V2.0. Same with Raz, Fish, Copp and Motte.

This team really sucks at developing forwards, we're extremely lucky that Ray is naturally gifted.

 

[heyfolks]

I see Marco as a solid depth piece aka stalwart 3rd line center.

Larkin
ND
Kasper
TBD

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't think the Veleno experiment will last and probably the best guy to put into that role right now is Kasper when we look for a change. Right now I think he would be most effective in a wing role. Turn him loose as a forechecker, let him learn how Raymond and Larkin create space. He makes pretty good plays below the goal-line, I think the role we are searching for screams an opportunity for Kasper to get a look there.

I am not for forcing guys up to a role way beyond them, I actually legitimately think it might be best for him. Look at a Joel Ericksson Ek, it took him a while and playing with a great scoring talent to open up his scoring. They could keep him at center with that in mind, but I would like to see Kasper freed up to play a simpler game for a bit. I think you can only tell so much given what they have used him to do. His ability to take bad passes and board play is something we miss in our top 6 since Perron left and the good news is he is actually fast so the one thing we hated with Perron with Larkin doesn't exist there.

I am not concerned that Kasper is a legitimate NHL player, that is an important first step. The NHL is a tough league I have said before I see his low end ceiling being a Lars Eller. I actually think he is playing pretty well though, so I have a little hope he could make a jump here over the second half. He is still a very young player for the NHL, I think people need to be a little more patient with him.

 

[Gniwder]

I don't think the Veleno experiment will last and probably the best guy to put into that role right now is Kasper when we look for a change. Right now I think he would be most effective in a wing role. Turn him loose as a forechecker, let him learn how Raymond and Larkin create space. He makes pretty good plays below the goal-line, I think the role we are searching for screams an opportunity for Kasper to get a look there.

I am not for forcing guys up to a role way beyond them, I actually legitimately think it might be best for him. Look at a Joel Ericksson Ek, it took him a while and playing with a great scoring talent to open up his scoring. They could keep him at center with that in mind, but I would like to see Kasper freed up to play a simpler game for a bit. I think you can only tell so much given what they have used him to do. His ability to take bad passes and board play is something we miss in our top 6 since Perron left and the good news is he is actually fast so the one thing we hated with Perron with Larkin doesn't exist there.

I am not concerned that Kasper is a legitimate NHL player, that is an important first step. The NHL is a tough league I have said before I see his low end ceiling being a Lars Eller. I actually think he is playing pretty well though, so I have a little hope he could make a jump here over the second half. He is still a very young player for the NHL, I think people need to be a little more patient with him.

Ironically, it's actually the fans that want him in GR that have more patience. It means we're willing to wait until next season to watch Kasper play in Detroit.

He's 20 years old, not even old enough for the NFL draft.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Ironically, it's actually the fans that want him in GR that have more patience. It means we're willing to wait until next season to watch Kasper play in Detroit.

He's 20 years old, not even old enough for the NFL draft.

There’s no way around the need for NHL experience. Get ready to argue that Mazur, Danielson, MBN, Lombardi, Söderblom, ASP, Cossa, Wallinder and Buium need to be sent down because odds are most of them WILL have some initial rookie mistakes and an adjustment period. Oh, and the longer we keep them in GR the more likely it is several of them will have their NHL rookie moments at the same time instead of staggering those struggles.

Next year when we bring up Danielson and/or others, we want Kasper to be done with the worst of his adjustment.

 

[Euro Twins]

There’s no way around the need for NHL experience. Get ready to argue that Mazur, Danielson, MBN, Lombardi, Söderblom, ASP, Cossa, Wallinder and Buium need to be sent down because odds are most of them WILL have some initial rookie mistakes and an adjustment period. Oh, and the longer we keep them in GR the more likely it is several of them will have their NHL rookie moments at the same time instead of staggering those struggles.

Next year when we bring up Danielson and/or others, we want Kasper to be done with the worst of his adjustment.

Asp and cossa are saints and will never ever make a mistake!

 

[Gniwder]

There’s no way around the need for NHL experience. Get ready to argue that Mazur, Danielson, MBN, Lombardi, Söderblom, ASP, Cossa, Wallinder and Buium need to be sent down because odds are most of them WILL have some initial rookie mistakes and an adjustment period. Oh, and the longer we keep them in GR the more likely it is several of them will have their NHL rookie moments at the same time instead of staggering those struggles.

Next year when we bring up Danielson and/or others, we want Kasper to be done with the worst of his adjustment.

Solderblom, Viro, and Hanas will have to clear waivers. The rest have time.

It's not just about "adjustment period", it's about skill development. Kasper and Danielson need to learn how to finish. They'll both have more scoring chances playing top 6 in GR than bottom 6 for Detroit. The other option is to play them at wing like the team did with Larkin. I don't think Todd will go with that option because he wants to win now.

With Lombardi and ASP, it's also about physical development. I've been saying that about AlJo, but he has to clear waivers.

I don't believe in overripening prospects, but they also shouldn't have huge glaring holes in their game. Plus more time in GR will shorten the adjustment period. We've seen that with overripened prospects in the past.